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Chronciles of Elyria - Not Pay to Win

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  • holdenfiveholdenfive Member UncommonPosts: 170
    Eldurian said:
    The thing with saying that allowing RMT is pay to win is that it's no worse than allowing a PLEX like system. You pay money, you get an in-game items, you sell it for in-game currency, you use it to accomplish in-game objectives.

    How is a system in which you swap money directly for in-game currency with other players substantially different from this is any way?

    Yet people aren't calling EVE or any of the games that have copied it's system (Which is most of them now) "Pay to Win." It's just proof how illogical and driven by their emotions people are. One person calls out "Pay to Win!" and everyone gets to squawking because everyone else is squawking even if there is nothing to freak out about. 
    It's not really the same. In game currency swapping hands for an item that does not impact other players experience in any way is not the same as providing a direct advantange to the player from the developer for money. In the example you're using, both players benefit, and they could easily come to an agreement to trade in game currency for sub time without the developer facilitating that. The actual item being sold by the developer has no value in an ingame capacity, in that sense it's no different than a player buying a cosmetic item from the cash shop and selling it for in game cash. It's the same thing in practice, would you also consider that p2w? 

    In game currency can change hands for many non gameplay reasons without prompting from developers. I give it to friends/family all the time, I give it away when I quit a game, etc. The actual transactions that provide the benefit to one party are still ultimately occuring between 2 players, so I dont see it in a P2W sense. It's still 2 players exchanging or giving their time spent, that's a shit ton different than OP items being popped into existence out of thin air because someone busted out their credit card. 
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,821
    edited June 2017
    Eldurian said:
    The thing with saying that allowing RMT is pay to win is that it's no worse than allowing a PLEX like system. You pay money, you get an in-game items, you sell it for in-game currency, you use it to accomplish in-game objectives.

    How is a system in which you swap money directly for in-game currency with other players substantially different from this is any way?

    Yet people aren't calling EVE or any of the games that have copied it's system (Which is most of them now) "Pay to Win." It's just proof how illogical and driven by their emotions people are. One person calls out "Pay to Win!" and everyone gets to squawking because everyone else is squawking even if there is nothing to freak out about. 
    I'm fairly certain almost everyone who decries "P2W" about paying cash for in game advantages believes PLEX like systems fall under this moniker.

    I've spent considerable time on these forums (or wasted my breath) explaining how and why PLEX trading has almost zero impact on other players game experience due to EVEs design.

    I can't say this would be true for every game and I can think of several titles where spending thousands to improve your gear bonuses can put players in a much higher power plane which non payers are likely never to reach.

    MMORPG I'm currently playing has no RMT that I'm able to discern, but for most modern games I've accepted most will have P2A (a more accurate term in most cases) in them.

    What matters to me is their impact on my personal game play and I look for titles where I feel it will be negligible.

    I'm not sure about COE yet.  Yes, people are buying Kingdoms but I'm not sure I really care as I likely would never aspire to such a role 

    EVE taught me running a large corp, or worse alliance or coalition even was a huge investment of time and meta gaming.

    I never envied the leaders their role and was grateful someone was willing to do all that work on such a thankless job.

    I don't think I really care if someone paid cash for the job, likely in COE leaders will pay even more in terms of time spent.

    Heck, you would have to pay me to be king, so let those willing have the job.

    Any kings out there reading this looking for a loyal subject? (pretty low maintenance too) ;)


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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    The issue with the RMT is that it comes in top of the Buy2King P2W scheme.

    There is a reason that the whale who spent tens of thousands of dollars and bought not one but 2 of the 6 kingdoms on his server publicly posted his concern that it was getting over the top in the P2W category even for him. He felt his advantages were becoming insurmountable.

    Here you can buy yourself any position up to king (or I suppose Emperor if you buy 2 kingdoms) then buy additional advantages like Legendary Castles, war machines, technology, resources, etc...   Now to top it off RMT is allowed.  It's just the icing on the cake as now the same folks can use their real world resources to buy whatever they need once the game launches. So nothing in game was ever earned by in game actions.  Heck they could now just use real money to hire people to fight for them.

    (Please excuse any obvious typos as I'm on my phone)
    GdemamiYashaX

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited June 2017
    Eldurian said:
    The thing with saying that allowing RMT is pay to win is that it's no worse than allowing a PLEX like system. You pay money, you get an in-game items, you sell it for in-game currency, you use it to accomplish in-game objectives.

    How is a system in which you swap money directly for in-game currency with other players substantially different from this is any way?

    Yet people aren't calling EVE or any of the games that have copied it's system (Which is most of them now) "Pay to Win." It's just proof how illogical and driven by their emotions people are. One person calls out "Pay to Win!" and everyone gets to squawking because everyone else is squawking even if there is nothing to freak out about. 
    It's not really the same. In game currency swapping hands for an item that does not impact other players experience in any way is not the same as providing a direct advantange to the player from the developer for money. In the example you're using, both players benefit, and they could easily come to an agreement to trade in game currency for sub time without the developer facilitating that. The actual item being sold by the developer has no value in an ingame capacity, in that sense it's no different than a player buying a cosmetic item from the cash shop and selling it for in game cash. It's the same thing in practice, would you also consider that p2w? 

    In game currency can change hands for many non gameplay reasons without prompting from developers. I give it to friends/family all the time, I give it away when I quit a game, etc. The actual transactions that provide the benefit to one party are still ultimately occuring between 2 players, so I dont see it in a P2W sense. It's still 2 players exchanging or giving their time spent, that's a shit ton different than OP items being popped into existence out of thin air because someone busted out their credit card. 
    Well that's an entirely separate subject from the one I am discussing. My point is that RMT is not greater than PLEX on the pay to win scale.

    Now in terms of cash shop items. I've always held this opinion:

    If you you can turn cash into in-game gold and in-game gold into cash (or cash shop currency) then it's still no different from PLEX. If I don't want to pay for a cash shop item with in-game currency I just buy cash shop currency with it and then buy what I need. Something I've done many times in ArchAge. Similarly just like if I don't want to earn something bought with game currency in-game I can sell a PLEX and buy it with the proceeds from that, I can buy the cash shop item with cash if I don't want to save up for it in-game.

    The only meaningful difference between in-game currency and cash shop currency in a PLEX based game is their exchange rate. If your income source is the game cash shop items are cheaper when the ingame economy is good and more expensive when it's bad. If your income source is cash in-game currency items are cheaper when the economy is bad and expensive when it's good. That's the only difference.

    With pre-purchase items such as kickstarter perks, yeah that can give a serious advantage to wallet warriors unavailable to people who earn their stuff ingame. CoE while on my radar list is one of the lower games on it so I haven't researched it very much. I guess we'll see how it pans out. Hopefully the stat gap in the game is low enough that neither pay-to-win more play-to-win players will have a major advantage, and if it isn't, then it's very unlikely I'll would choose this game over the other options on my radar list. So no biggie. We'll see what happens.




    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,459
    Eldurian said:
    The thing with saying that allowing RMT is pay to win is that it's no worse than allowing a PLEX like system. You pay money, you get an in-game items, you sell it for in-game currency, you use it to accomplish in-game objectives.

    How is a system in which you swap money directly for in-game currency with other players substantially different from this is any way?

    Yet people aren't calling EVE or any of the games that have copied it's system (Which is most of them now) "Pay to Win." It's just proof how illogical and driven by their emotions people are. One person calls out "Pay to Win!" and everyone gets to squawking because everyone else is squawking even if there is nothing to freak out about. 

    That's actually one of the main reasons people call other games p2w; although I can't think of any mmo that allows players to also buy power on the massive scale on display here.
    KyleranSlapshot1188Asm0deusGdemami
    ....
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
     Well if people feel PLEX is pay to win, then yeah, Pay to Win is here to stay. It's kind of proven itself to be a winning business model and I think most players have gotten over it these days which is why you see it in so many games.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Eldurian said:
     Well if people feel PLEX is pay to win, then yeah, Pay to Win is here to stay. It's kind of proven itself to be a winning business model and I think most players have gotten over it these days which is why you see it in so many games.
    "Pay to Advance" is now so deeply entrenched in the age of "Free Gaming" that nothing will ever dislodge it.

    The reality is that "Pay to Advance" effectively becomes "Pay to Win" when combined with today's short player commitments. Buy the maximum advantage at launch, and you can pwn everyone else until you quit the game 2 months later, by which time they're starting to catch-up...
    GdemamiKyleranYashaXNilden
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:
     Well if people feel PLEX is pay to win, then yeah, Pay to Win is here to stay. It's kind of proven itself to be a winning business model and I think most players have gotten over it these days which is why you see it in so many games.
    "Pay to Advance" is now so deeply entrenched in the age of "Free Gaming" that nothing will ever dislodge it.

    The reality is that "Pay to Advance" effectively becomes "Pay to Win" when combined with today's short player commitments. Buy the maximum advantage at launch, and you can pwn everyone else until you quit the game 2 months later, by which time they're starting to catch-up...
    That's true for a game like ArcheAge. Takes A LOT of money to stay ahead in a game with gear loss on death.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,120
    Going to stay far, far away from this cash sink nightmare.  Remember the concept of an equal playing field that used to exist in games?  I guess the focus has just shifted from investing time to investing money.  What's next, paying for guaranteed headshots in an online FPS?  Hey, the other players have a chance to get a headshot, too.  They just have to work at it.  So that's cool.  I spend enough money in RL trying to keep my head above water.  Sure as hell not going to P2W in a video game.


    GdemamiSlapshot1188
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Remember the concept of an equal playing field that used to exist in games?
    Games? Sure. MMOs? No.

    MMOs have always favored basement dwelling virgins over people with lives. To the point of fights in many MMOs being straight up unwinnable unless you have grinded for thousands upon thousands of hours.

    If the power gap between Pay to Win and non-Pay to Win is smaller than the power gap between no-lifers and people with a useful function in society then I am totally ok dealing with that game.

    If the main thing people are upset about is people starting with most of the land in a game about territory control it makes me wonder if they've ever played a game with territory control.

    You can't control territory without a strong alliance to defend it, an strong alliances almost always fall to infighting and drama eventually. Generally sooner rather than later.

    Unless the defender's advantages in this game are off the chain I would guess that at least 75% of the keeps will have different owners by the end of the first year of this game.

    That's a concern for people planning to play two months and leave. It's not a concern for people planning to play this game a few years. So I don't think this game's primary audience cares all that much.
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    edited June 2017
    Eldurian said:
    Remember the concept of an equal playing field that used to exist in games?
    Games? Sure. MMOs? No.

    MMOs have always favored basement dwelling virgins over people with lives. To the point of fights in many MMOs being straight up unwinnable unless you have grinded for thousands upon thousands of hours.

    If the power gap between Pay to Win and non-Pay to Win is smaller than the power gap between no-lifers and people with a useful function in society then I am totally ok dealing with that game.


    Of course where this arguments fails is because it considers that people either have time or have money.   That is obviously untrue.  These whales have both time AND money.  So guess what that does to the "power gap"?

    Eldurian
    said:
    Remember the concept of an equal playing field that used to exist in games?


    If the main thing people are upset about is people starting with most of the land in a game about territory control it makes me wonder if they've ever played a game with territory control.

    You can't control territory without a strong alliance to defend it, an strong alliances almost always fall to infighting and drama eventually. Generally sooner rather than later.

    Unless the defender's advantages in this game are off the chain I would guess that at least 75% of the keeps will have different owners by the end of the first year of this game.

    That's a concern for people planning to play two months and leave. It's not a concern for people planning to play this game a few years. So I don't think this game's primary audience cares all that much.
    I can assure you that I have quite a history of playing territory control games.  To suggest that it's not a huge advantage to start with control is just silly.  They aren't just buying land, but also siege weapons, defensive structures, technology, resources, skills...  Then to top it off, they can use RMT to maintain that advantage.   I also suggest you familiarize yourself with the complex process of actually deposing someone: https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/15294/casus-belli-an-ab-guide

    It's the guy that understands the game best and put in tens of thousands of dollars that called it an "insurmountable advantage".  It's his quotes below:


     The "it can be taken from you" argument gets invalidated by the amount of advantage it gives being so valuable that it is now required for a community to rally around that advantage and protect it so that the community benefits from said insurmountable advantage. "it can be taken from you" arguments only work when / if the advantage you are being given is reasonably surmountable.

    and

    Again, rant over, but these are legitimate concerns that can no longer be answered with a simple "But they can be taken from you." My answer to that is, if things stay this way, good luck trying to take any of the advantages away from a group like mine. I can confidently say that these advantages in the hands of my group will equate to a completely insurmountable Kingdom in literally any and every aspect that we choose to go with. If that is a problem with me, it should be a problem with you too.


    I do believe that 75% of the keeps will have different owners after the first year though, but not for the reasons you post.   IMHO it's because all those people will have long since become disillusioned with the game as it was delivered.  They have been able to project their hopes and dreams on it.  When it launches and reality hits, there will be quite the exodus.


    IselinGdemami

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    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    I am always curious what whales do for a living that they can have both money and time. I mean don't they have to work to make the money ...oh trust fund kid yes but how many of them play games over partying all night.
    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    @Slapshot1188

    All I can say is I've never played a game with territorial control that the political map did not change dramatically every few months. New powers rise and old powers fall constantly. In any PvP guild there is always going to be some drama and the larger a guild gets the worse the drama gets. 

    I'm sure when the game comes out and has been out a few months, the political map will change, and I will claim it is confirmation of what I am saying now, and you will claim it is confirmation the game is crap and there as some huge exodus (AKA natural player turnover).


  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Well, I suppose we'll see how P2W it is or not if and when it comes out.
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  • Aragon100Aragon100 Member RarePosts: 2,686
    Anyone claiming this game is not pay to win should examine their heads.

    Of course developers claim it isn't since it would make less players interested funding the game.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,061
    when is this thing gonna go live? 2018?

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,373
    Any game that is most likely to struggle to get players will probably add elements that will make people want to pay.....
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,311
    "EP items will NOT be available after launch".Sp special perks to those giving money before the game is live.Yep pay to win.

    This is also worded carefully and deceptively.This does not mean there will not be EP points after release ,there most likely will continue to be EP points and new cash shop items after launch,just not the same ones there is now which is why they can word it so deceptively.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,038
    This whole thing is so ass backwards. Remember when MMORPG companies would promise that a game wouldn't have a cash shop then a couple months after launch add one? Now the first thing they do is make the cash shop then say they will remove it at launch, yeah right I'll believe that when I see it.

    Stop being gullible.
    KyleranOctagon7711Gdemami

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,959
    cheyane said:
    I am always curious what whales do for a living that they can have both money and time. I mean don't they have to work to make the money ...oh trust fund kid yes but how many of them play games over partying all night.
    One guy who spent 10K on a game said he worked a second job to pay for it.  
    KyleranDakeru

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  • Billybob1replyBillybob1reply Member CommonPosts: 2
    Wizardry said:
    "EP items will NOT be available after launch".Sp special perks to those giving money before the game is live.Yep pay to win.

    This is also worded carefully and deceptively.This does not mean there will not be EP points after release ,there most likely will continue to be EP points and new cash shop items after launch,just not the same ones there is now which is why they can word it so deceptively.
    You might want to read up on the game. Once expo is done left over ep becomes story points. Only thing available with sp is sparks and to respawn as a noble 
  • erebos007erebos007 Member UncommonPosts: 1
    IMO currently this game i well beyond P2W ! You are paying to be "gangbanged". You will want to pay to have the mentioned advanteages, then you will lose them, then realize that without it the game is too grindy, pay again, then get f***** again, etc.
  • skelexxskelexx Member CommonPosts: 4
    first things first let me say that when and if this game releases im gonna play it
    im gonna pay for the game and the subscription that is has in the form of sparks of life,souls
    and maybe i say maybe ill pay a bit extra just to get the early accesses

    this ^ is me my goal in the game is to become king why do i have to fight for the position
    and someone else that gave 10.000$ just takes it ?

    how can ANYONE see this as "fair" and not P2W  ??



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