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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,767
    edited December 2016
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    Great post. Cogent and contributing.
    I would be happy with Asheron's Call 3 as I was firmly in the AC camp and not in the EQ camp. Asheron's Call allowed for so much freedom and flexibility in playstyle.
    EQ seemed to restrictive to me.
    Which is why I prefer the single player games like Morrowind and the ES series over say The Witcher series. 

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 13
    Xodic said:
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
    hehe
    see these are some of the most iconic things about eq1 that were great

    the fear, dread, and excitement of mis pulling a zone, shouting out train inc, and trying to make it out alive was really frikin fun.  

    mistmoore, cazic, and guk to name a few were so iconically fun

    i cant wait
    i really hope brad and co stay true to what they did in eq
  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 13
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    wow was never original
    wow copied warhammer pretty much verbatim
  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 13
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    Great post. Cogent and contributing.
    I would be happy with Asheron's Call 3 as I was firmly in the AC camp and not in the EQ camp. Asheron's Call allowed for so much freedom and flexibility in playstyle.
    EQ seemed to restrictive to me.
    Which is why I prefer the single player games like Morrowind and the ES series over say The Witcher series. 
    i love open pvp for pve contested areas
    however eq pvp on rallos zek was goofy in that your party members could be damaged by aoe spells from your party
    ie bards ae dps songs

  • HerbinLegendHerbinLegend Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    I agree with most of this, but "9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. " ... many people find standing in one spot pressing hotbar keys equally 'stupid' or boring. Some would argue that action based combat requires more skill and awareness than tab target combat(I'm not seeking to argue this point, just making a point). 

    One thing I liked about the combat in DAoC is that some melee attacks were position dependent, your character had to be on the target's side or behind them; so while you could stand in one place and bash away at your hotkeys, it wasn't always the most efficient means to the end.

    I think Pantheon will rekindle the fires of nostalgia and I hope it delivers the gaming experience its supporters crave; Everquest 1 was a great game.

    Can't get my pen to write in this space.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited December 2016

    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Just thought I would re-respond to this, because I got off on the PvP part before. I noticed Sludge addressed some of these, but I thought I'd elaborate further. I also have to preface this by admitting I find this post confusing. On the one hand you're criticizing Pantheon for it's retrospective design, and then on the other hand you're listing innovative features which should exist in a game ... that are almost all, in some fashion, part of Pantheon. I mean literally, it looks like you pulled your list straight from the Pantheon FAQ. Did you really pledge to this game? If so, have you read anything about it at all?

    Not sure exactly what you mean by spellcrafting (perhaps "designing" your own spells), but Pantheon will have a pretty diverse array of methods in which to add to your ability or spell repertoire. By no means will the game just be about working towards the DING. They couldn't be more clear that focusing purely on experience will leave you very much at a disadvantage, perhaps even to the point where you are no longer able to gain levels because you've gimped yourself by neglecting horizontal progression.

    Right from the start they told us leveling up will not provide you with all of your abilities. Many will be found via drops, quests, and probably other ways as well. Even Vanguard had a system where you learned skills through osmosis from fighting special mobs (please bring this back, VR).

    Also to note, even EQ had crafting of spells by finding components and assembling them through the research tradeskill. Yes, I realize that this probably isn't the spellcrafting you were referring to, but it just shows how there are a lot of "ancient" stuff from games like EQ that have gone the way of the dodo in favor of completely streamlining the process of progression.

    Visionary Realms are putting forth a number of suggestions on how to create a much more vibrant and dynamic combat system. Their ideas on "mob dispositions" is just another name for mob AI. While we only see a few basic examples in the stream of "craven" mobs fleeing combat, the potential for making combat truly dynamic through their proposed system will range from innovative to truly groundbreaking depending on how much time they put into that logic.

    Weather effects and environmental conditions are a huge pillar in Pantheon's world design. You do know this don't you? Not only the way environments affect the players, but the way the effects of the weather can be harnessed by the player to empower them. It's right there in the Atmosphere and Climate system info page almost verbatim, and has been for over a year.

    As to your thoughts on implementing physics, that sounds fascinating. I am not familiar with what Project Gorgon has done because I've put off playing it until launch.

    You should really look in on the game's progress in the last year. You're missing out!


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    I agree with most of this, but "9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. " ... many people find standing in one spot pressing hotbar keys equally 'stupid' or boring. Some would argue that action based combat requires more skill and awareness than tab target combat(I'm not seeking to argue this point, just making a point). 

    One thing I liked about the combat in DAoC is that some melee attacks were position dependent, your character had to be on the target's side or behind them; so while you could stand in one place and bash away at your hotkeys, it wasn't always the most efficient means to the end.

    I think Pantheon will rekindle the fires of nostalgia and I hope it delivers the gaming experience its supporters crave; Everquest 1 was a great game.
    Just wanted to say I agree big time with your suggestion about DAOC. Positional attacks and ways to increase the movement is something I'm big on and have suggested specifically. I don't want the game to become "action combat" as we currently know it, but I certainly think there needs to be more action ... in the combat.


  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    Dullahan said:
    Visionary Realms are putting forth a number of suggestions on how to create a much more vibrant and dynamic combat system. Their ideas on "mob dispositions" is just another name for mob AI. While we only see a few basic examples in the stream of "craven" mobs fleeing combat, the potential for making combat truly dynamic through their proposed system will range from innovative to truly groundbreaking depending on how much time they put into that logic.

    Thanks Dullahan.  Just wanted to add, and maybe it was too subtle in the stream and we should have pointed it out, but the boss mob fought in Halnir Caves had some pretty sophisticated AI, scripting and disposition.

    1. Sometimes he's un-attackable

    2. When you enter the room he is in the doors close stopping you from escaping.

    3. He spawns minions dynamically, and if you don't beat those down they really get out of control.

    4. He creates a lasting AoE effect you need to pay attention to (say if you're fighting him, you'd better move out of range)

    5. At times he has a spell reflection aura around him and can only take melee damage (e.g. if you fireball him, *you* take the damage instead).

    It's actually a pretty cool fight, takes some thought, and hints at what is to come :)

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,621
    I got loads of things I am worried about with Pantheon, but I must also admit that it is really the only mmorpg that seemingly tries to not go the story driven themepark direction, but instead apply the much missed principles of everquest of what I call open ended content.
    Open ended content is where the player is offered a clue (item drop, npc speak, emote notice, etc) that can be investigated if the player choose - This is giving the player control of their adventures to make their own stories instead of the developers narrative.
    Still somewhat the developers narrative, but in smaller optional bits that does not feel forced - This much overlooked detail makes all the difference.

    I could write a few pages listing my worries in detail but summing it up it would be:
    Are the devs and their hardcore supporters too stuck in retrogressive "p1999" mode ?

    I worry because I care.. I want Pantheon to "succeed" and show this sad genre that there are players for other types of mmorpgs than story driven themepark or pvp gankfest.
  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 42
    Wow, so much hate :)


    If you have been following the game since early 2014 you would know how far it had come, and yes it is still pre pre Alpha, and a long way to go. Sure the graphics don't look as flash as some recent RPG releases, but refer to "pre pre Alpha" and check out some early vid's.

    I think the key point is if you don't like this style of play / direction but enjoy what's currently on offer, then this games not "aimed" at you. It is however aimed at those who want to play a challenging game as a group working of each others skills to achieve the goal, in the style of games past.

    As for comments of nothing innovative, well there is lots of things made to work better (perception questing etc) and unique changes like climate effects and atmospheres (not all demonstrated yet).


    Will it be the MMO genre saviour? to many yes! in that it potentially gives them something they want to play. For others no, as the style is not going to attract everybody, as Cohhcarnage clearly pointed out.
    This is an MMO how a lot of people view MMO's, which is widely different to what the genre has become.

    Personally looking forward to a game that is more than a solo experience with very impersonal dungeon runs.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    edited December 2016
    punahou said:
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    wow was never original
    wow copied warhammer pretty much verbatim
    Never said it was terribly original, although it did completely change the way MMOs handled quests and dungeons. Beyond that, the combat system - both in terms of execution and technical accomplishments - was way beyond what came before in fluidity and response.

    Point was, again, that Pantheon is even less original.

    But please note that I'm not particularly focused on originality. It was just to point something out.

    I have no problem with games that take existing concepts and do them better - or simply change them up a bit for a different experience.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
    The more you use the phrase ancient throwbacks, the more obvious it becomes that you lack any first-hand knowledge of what those games offered and were about.
    The more you blindly bash anyone who disagrees with you, the more obvious it becomes you're not capable of fruitful discussion.

    In the gaming industry, 15-20 years is a very, very long time.

    Games like EverQuest are entirely ancient these days. As I said, I lasted a couple of weeks before I realised the game was almost entirely about the grind. It was limited content stretched out to a ridiculous degree.

    Not surprising, as MMOs were new - and the whole idea of spending months and years playing only one game was pretty rare. Sure, people had been doing that with MUDs - but it was never anywhere near mainstream entertainment.

    UO and EQ were the first to break through and introduce the concept to hundreds of thousands of people.

    I was more of a UO guy - because I always enjoyed the sandbox style of game and EQ, to me, was more like a progression oriented themepark where you moved from area to area with too much emphasis on level and the color of mobs. The rewards simply didn't match the investment. It took a ridiculous amount of time to progress in those games - and I was never that fond of pouring my heart and soul into a big black hole.

    I'm sure you disagree and you found your time well spent.

    That doesn't mean I have to pretend you don't know what you're talking about. It simply means we want different things from our games.

    What I'm claiming is that what YOU want is not as common as you seem to think it is. You seem completely incapable of looking at Pantheon objectively. You seem obsessed with the idea that YOU understand why it's great - and people who don't agree are somehow wrong.

    That makes you arrogant and ignorant - which is a very common combination, sadly.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.
    So, another "I'm so smart and you're so dumb" post with zero arguments or underpinning supporting your point of view.

    I can't say I'm surprised.

    You're like a broken record stuck on "WoW was bad and everything before was great" ;)

    For the record, I stopped playing WoW in 2008 (though I do check out expansions occasionally) - and it bores me to tears these days. The genre has evolved since those days, though I'm sure you're deliberately oblivious to it.

    Then again, I don't suppose you care much about making an impression or appearing like your position is one of merit. One would hope not, for your sake.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.
    So, another "I'm so smart and you're so dumb" post with zero arguments or underpinning supporting your point of view.

    I can't say I'm surprised.

    You're like a broken record stuck on "WoW was bad and everything before was great" ;)

    For the record, I stopped playing WoW in 2008 (though I do check out expansions occasionally) - and it bores me to tears these days. The genre has evolved since those days, though I'm sure you're deliberately oblivious to it.

    Then again, I don't suppose you care much about making an impression or appearing like your position is one of merit. One would hope not, for your sake.
    I've addressed you plenty of times in the past, but contrary to what you allege against me, it's always a circular argument with you where you come back to "it's old, it was replaced, thus it's bad".

    Sorry, but I won't be running in the circle with you any more. Either take my above instruction, or don't.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.
    So, another "I'm so smart and you're so dumb" post with zero arguments or underpinning supporting your point of view.

    I can't say I'm surprised.

    You're like a broken record stuck on "WoW was bad and everything before was great" ;)

    For the record, I stopped playing WoW in 2008 (though I do check out expansions occasionally) - and it bores me to tears these days. The genre has evolved since those days, though I'm sure you're deliberately oblivious to it.

    Then again, I don't suppose you care much about making an impression or appearing like your position is one of merit. One would hope not, for your sake.
    I've addressed you plenty of times in the past, but contrary to what you allege against me, it's always a circular argument with you where you come back to "it's old, it was replaced, thus it's bad".

    Sorry, but I won't be running in the circle with you any more. Either take my above instruction, or don't.
    It's circular only because you refuse to understand the same simple nuances again and again.

    I'm not saying it's bad - I'm saying most games and players have moved beyond it.

    It's probably really great to SOME people, though I would like to claim even some of those will find themselves surprised by how little fun they'll end up having.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,986
    edited December 2016
    Given where they are now and how much they wish to put into the game it feels like there won't be a feature complete and polished version of this game until at least second half of 2018.

    Having healers sit around and do nothing 75% of the time gave an awful impression of gameplay, to the point of me just watching a short part of the stream. Hope they improve it before the next stream.

    I wasn't impressed by how the game looked but its not a dealbreaker if it stays that way until launch. The stiff animations are obvious placeholders to be fixed later on.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    Shaigh said:
    Given where they are now and how much they wish to put into the game it feels like there won't be a feature complete and polished version of this game until at least second half of 2018.

    Having healers sit around and do nothing 75% of the time gave an awful impression of gameplay, to the point of me just watching a short part of the stream. Hope they improve it before the next stream.

    I wasn't impressed by how the game looked but its not a dealbreaker if it stays that way until launch. The stiff animations are obvious placeholders to be fixed later on.
    Definitely a FAR way off - but I wouldn't expect any different.

    These games take a long time to make.

    At least there's definite progress - and I'm sure the game will be reasonably polished and functional in a few years.

    That said, I still don't understand the appeal of insane TTK and overlong downtimes. I really, really don't.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    DKLond said:
    I still don't understand
    We get it.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,180
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    I still don't understand
    We get it.
    Ooooh, powerful argument yet again ;)
  • ZenJellyZenJelly Member UncommonPosts: 46
    I haven't seen anything in the development of this game that tells me it'll be successful in the long run. It's going to be more like the Spice Girls, here today, forgotten  and gone tomorrow.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    Excellent post, that's what many of us want, it just cracks me up that some  people keep  telling us we are wrong to desire such things.
    But my question to them is "what's not to like?"

    PS: You missed 'slow leveling'

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    ZenJelly said:
    I haven't seen anything in the development of this game that tells me it'll be successful in the long run. It's going to be more like the Spice Girls, here today, forgotten  and gone tomorrow.
    Whereas the popularity of recent MMOs are like that guy from Gangnam Style.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    ZenJelly said:
    I haven't seen anything in the development of this game that tells me it'll be successful in the long run. It's going to be more like the Spice Girls, here today, forgotten  and gone tomorrow.
    Whereas the popularity of recent MMOs are like that guy from Gangnam Style.

    I just want to point out that, EQ a 13 y/o game, is single handedly keeping DayBreak afloat.

    Longevity is not actually a problem for this type of games, they  have actually the most loyal player base of any other MMO.
    So the problem won't be longevity or player loyalty, but more player numbers (how big is the potential player base).
    For that we have to wait and see, but my gut feeling tells me there is a BIG (not small) niche for this kind of games.

  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 566
    Dullahan said:
    ZenJelly said:
    I haven't seen anything in the development of this game that tells me it'll be successful in the long run. It's going to be more like the Spice Girls, here today, forgotten  and gone tomorrow.
    Whereas the popularity of recent MMOs are like that guy from Gangnam Style.
    True words ^

    secondly, I love it when people rush to judgment on something that is a long ways out still.  I wish people would go back and watch the first stream and then watch the 2nd and compare the two to see the strides and progress they have made. 
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