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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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Comments

  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    In fairness to Blizzard, yes they have the whole marketing shebang down to a T, but the products they release are excellent.

    An excellent example of Good Marketing but Poor Product (be it viral, word of mouth or otherwise) is No Man's Sky.

    With Blizzard you get what it says on the box.

    I'd just like to see Blizzard for to once again take the lead and release something really original or at the very least a serious itteration above whats currently available (Original Diablo being a good example as they took a very basic game design ie MUDS and amped it 100%)
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • XodicXodic Member RarePosts: 947
    edited December 2016
    Xodic said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
    Not sure what you mean. Marketing is the reason they are successful? Hardly.
    Didn't help Battleborn at all even though I saw commercials all the time for it.
    No one said anything about how 'great' they are it is just common sense that they are very successful and for what they try and accomplish they do. They sell a lot of copies of their games and have millions of fans in multiple genres.

     
    What!? This new Blizzard has made a total of one good game - which is undeniably the original pre-fucked World of Warcraft. Since then they have become nothing more than a marketing company that just so happens to own a game development studio. They have so much money they are able to literally purchase more money. Overwatch had their shit on everything, from Taco Bell cups to movie trailers. They shadowed Battleborn (which isn't a great game - just as Overwatch isn't) and they did it with money.

    Of all of the games out there similar and arguably better than Overwatch, Overwatch makes more money; why is that? It's better?

    Bullshit. It's because Blizzard is a household name - bought and paid for through marketing. 

    edit - to clarify, pointing to revenue and contributing that to how great games are is a misrepresentation. It makes them successful, but doesn't necessarily mean the games are great and that the way Blizzard makes them is perfect. So when you say "they must be doing something right" yes, they are masters of marketing and polishing.
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 480
    edited December 2016
    For the record I'm "Down With Time Sinks", back in the old days we used to call that "Playing The Game" :) 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,537
    svann said:
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
    Gotta admit, he doesnt give up.  Took 3 goes to make ff14 work but he eventually got it.
    And who else has pulled that off in the industry? Even mighty Blizz couldn't do that with Titan, although they could have reused bits in Overwatch, etc. I'm not a huge fan of Yoshi-P's designs or his revenue philosophy but that one contribution alone is noteworthy, let alone his other work on Dragon Quest.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • Jonnyp2Jonnyp2 Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Xodic said:
    Xodic said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
    Not sure what you mean. Marketing is the reason they are successful? Hardly.
    Didn't help Battleborn at all even though I saw commercials all the time for it.
    No one said anything about how 'great' they are it is just common sense that they are very successful and for what they try and accomplish they do. They sell a lot of copies of their games and have millions of fans in multiple genres.

     
    What!? This new Blizzard has made a total of one good game - which is undeniably the original pre-fucked World of Warcraft. Since then they have become nothing more than a marketing company that just so happens to own a game development studio. They have so much money they are able to literally purchase more money. Overwatch had their shit on everything, from Taco Bell cups to movie trailers. They shadowed Battleborn (which isn't a great game - just as Overwatch isn't) and they did it with money.

    Of all of the games out there similar and arguably better than Overwatch, Overwatch makes more money; why is that? It's better?

    Bullshit. It's because Blizzard is a household name - bought and paid for through marketing. 

    edit - to clarify, pointing to revenue and contributing that to how great games are is a misrepresentation. It makes them successful, but doesn't necessarily mean the games are great and that the way Blizzard makes them is perfect. So when you say "they must be doing something right" yes, they are masters of marketing.
    Blizzard hasn't made a "good" game since vanilla wow?  This guy isn't biased at all... 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,537
    vorpal28 said:
    In fairness to Blizzard, yes they have the whole marketing shebang down to a T, but the products they release are excellent.

    An excellent example of Good Marketing but Poor Product (be it viral, word of mouth or otherwise) is No Man's Sky.

    With Blizzard you get what it says on the box.

    I'd just like to see Blizzard for to once again take the lead and release something really original or at the very least a serious itteration above whats currently available (Original Diablo being a good example as they took a very basic game design ie MUDS and amped it 100%)
    Blizz is a great example of doing both right. I think they brought the genre forward a bit with Overwatch. They also make a serious contribution to the industry by making games accessible to the masses that brings people in to explore more niche titles.

    I don't agree about NMS though. It was a good, not great, game that was over marketed and hyped. If it had been marketed more honestly there wouldn't have been a huge backlash and the game would have been appreciated for the novelties it added to the walking-sim exploration sub-genre.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • XodicXodic Member RarePosts: 947
    edited December 2016
    Jonnyp2 said:
    Xodic said:
    Xodic said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
    Not sure what you mean. Marketing is the reason they are successful? Hardly.
    Didn't help Battleborn at all even though I saw commercials all the time for it.
    No one said anything about how 'great' they are it is just common sense that they are very successful and for what they try and accomplish they do. They sell a lot of copies of their games and have millions of fans in multiple genres.

     
    What!? This new Blizzard has made a total of one good game - which is undeniably the original pre-fucked World of Warcraft. Since then they have become nothing more than a marketing company that just so happens to own a game development studio. They have so much money they are able to literally purchase more money. Overwatch had their shit on everything, from Taco Bell cups to movie trailers. They shadowed Battleborn (which isn't a great game - just as Overwatch isn't) and they did it with money.

    Of all of the games out there similar and arguably better than Overwatch, Overwatch makes more money; why is that? It's better?

    Bullshit. It's because Blizzard is a household name - bought and paid for through marketing. 

    edit - to clarify, pointing to revenue and contributing that to how great games are is a misrepresentation. It makes them successful, but doesn't necessarily mean the games are great and that the way Blizzard makes them is perfect. So when you say "they must be doing something right" yes, they are masters of marketing.
    Blizzard hasn't made a "good" game since vanilla wow?  This guy isn't biased at all... 
    I hate Blizzard like I hate accidentally sitting on my balls. I also have reasons and they're not unfair or unjust.
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 576
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
    Well, I agree about open world and the weather system. Those are neat features.

    I just think the game, as a whole, smacks of stubborn adherence to the ancient past.

    I've been a passionate gamer since 1982 - so I don't lack appreciation for old-school mechanics and the golden years of gaming.

    But I'm not blind to evolution - and I'm not blind to how I, myself, have changed as a human being.

    I'm no longer a wide-eyed teenager willing to dedicate all my life to a single game. That just won't happen.

    Modern games have to adapt or die, essentially.

    Well, not die per say - but if you're going to target the niche market, you better be fine with it - and you better not expect people to ignore the last decade of genre evolution.

    This is where I'm not quite sure about Pantheon and the developers. I'm sceptical about whether they can truly accept a very small playerbase and thrive.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,537
    I have the similar concerns for this game as I do Project Gorgon and Shroud; they will end up being rehashes rather than successors.

    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    DKLond said:
    I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
    The more you use the phrase ancient throwbacks, the more obvious it becomes that you lack any first-hand knowledge of what those games offered and were about.


  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    I am taking a wait and see approach, but so far I've enjoyed what the team have shown.

    I'm in no doubt this game is only going to cater to a small niche, but if the devs are happy, the bills are getting paid and content keeps getting added to the game I'm not going to care that the game has not got 100's of servers.

    I'm looking forward to the old game mechanic approach to the game;  I've never really enjoyed the quest treadmill type MMO seen since EQ2 and WoW.  Don't get me wrong certain quests I enjoy, for example heritage quests from EQ 2 and some of the story stuff from SWTOR, but I've had enough and I'm looking forward to some good old fashioned group mob grinding. 

    It is also my belief that sometimes to move forward or take a different direction, you have to move back to the point in time where the genre went off in one direction and take a different path or approach to game mechanics, for example since WoW the majority of MMO's have took a more casual,  mass appeal and streamlined approach where the end game takes the most focus.  What we are seeing now is indie devs carving a niche approach to gameplay;  only focusing on one or a few elements which their core audience is interested in.  Time will tell if this approach will be a success, but hopefully it will succeed and other dev teams will gain confidence and build  and approve on these MMO's.

  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 576
    edited December 2016
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    Exactly, we can expect it to improve as the videos have clearly shown.

    It's an MMO.  There's only so many things that can be "original" in them as they all take from one another.  WoW took from EQ, other games took from WoW, so on and so forth.  Its a never ending cycle.   There are some things that are interesting though that they talked about in this last stream.  The system where you have the different weather systems where you have to get accustomed to and having different severites is interesting and unique.

    And yes, you're right, anyone who expects the level of polish that Blizzard provides would be naive and I am not knocking Visionary Realms devs at all in the slightest but having a dev team of 500+ strong makes a huge difference.  They have limitless resources as well which helps  tremendously. 

    Being a huge fan and player of EQ for many years and even with its issues, Vanguard to this day still provided some great memories and hope this can capture similar times.  I especially look forward to the open world dungeons. No more instanced BS please.  
    Well, I agree about open world and the weather system. Those are neat features.

    I just think the game, as a whole, smacks of stubborn adherence to the ancient past.

    I've been a passionate gamer since 1982 - so I don't lack appreciation for old-school mechanics and the golden years of gaming.

    But I'm not blind to evolution - and I'm not blind to how I, myself, have changed as a human being.

    I'm no longer a wide-eyed teenager willing to dedicate all my life to a single game. That just won't happen.

    Modern games have to adapt or die, essentially.

    Well, not die per say - but if you're going to target the niche market, you better be fine with it - and you better not expect people to ignore the last decade of genre evolution.

    This is where I'm not quite sure about Pantheon and the developers. I'm sceptical about whether they can truly accept a very small playerbase and thrive.
    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
  • RedsaltRedsalt Member UncommonPosts: 75
    They have made some good progress since their last stream.  I like the perception system as a means of opening content.  I am also likeing the art and environment design.   Looking forward to seeing more.

    Redsalt... the other salt.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.


  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    I am encouraged by what I am seeing in this, and I think it will probably be the go-to game for my group as long as the gameplay is good. I feel like the visuals are in the realm of where I would want them to be, and with better animations it should be just fine. 

    Seeing that group standing there getting ready to adventure. I saw a group that didn't look like canned archetypes like in a commercial or a MOBA. I felt the excitement of the old games, the energy of dungeon delves past. 
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,882
    I like what I see and where this is going. I cringe when they call it pre-pre-alpha. Anyway coming along nicely but a long way to go. Like no point in a release date yet long way to go.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Xatsh said:
    People should not praise Yoshida or FFXIV. He did a miracle and saved the worst mmo in creation from shutdown and kept the p2p model, major props for that. But what else did they really do that other f2p mmos are not doing. Game is extremely polished but that is it.

    Yoshi-P gets credit for saving a mmo that launched so incomplete and disastrous it was without words. No only did FFXIV launch with out endgame, it launched without midgame, early game, major parts of the battle system, and the dev team did alot of Copy Paste through the land scape, by alot I mean whole zones were made of 6-8 landmass designs turned different directions.

    I give him little credit after that though, the new version of FFXIV is a WoW clone style game that even now through its first 2 expansions is getting more and more dumbed down and casual as time goes. They are following the same content design over and over and over each patch since 2.0. FFXIV has the same retention problem many games have in the genre currently. It is simply because of their design choices.

    Being a large FF fan and someone who played FFXI advidly (about 20,000 ingame hours) I gave them from 1.0 to 3.4 to fix the game, and it was apparent they want it to be something you play in small chunks, something you play with low man groups, something where guild have no real purpose, PvP with litteraly nothing from it, whole open world if solo only - Fates are 20ppl soloing the same mob no interations, raids where it is simpley every class do max dps and dodge the circles, something that where all your work is reset every 6 months. I understand some people love this style of game but myself, my guild of 65 people who were in the game at launch and 2.0, the 143 people who joined and quit the game from my guild in those years very much disagree with the direction he took the game.

    This is my opinion, but I disgree with Yoshida's assessment of the genre as a whole. The reason game are not succeeding is because they are no longer virtual worlds, the bonds of players no longer exist, the attachment to your character no longer exist. What made mmos special is they were more then just games back in the day. I grew to know the people I played with, many became friends outside the game. The genre has went too far from what made is something special. Pantheon, while I do not agree with all Brads decisions, I agree with most and I thank him and his team for taking the genre back to its roots and giving the ability to play in my opinion a mmo again.

    Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game.  But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.


    I basically agree with everything Xtash said. As a FFXI vet I'm very much looking forward to Pantheon, because Xtash is right. Many of us no longer have an MMO home. In some cases the game is no longer in service, for others its unrecognizable from what it once was.


    And my aversion to the current MMOs is not due to lack of trying. Name it and I have probably given it a try (exception for most of the "sandbox" mmos that are PvP but aren't compelling at all). And I can honestly say I have only ever played any Blizzard game once and that was WoW for about 2 days before I uninstalled it. Maybe all I'm interested in is "ancient throwbacks" because I'm not impressed nor particularly interested in most games ideas of innovation. Innovation....... I hear this word and cant help but cringe. Most of the time its just gimmicky crap. Like how the wii introduced the wiimotes and nunchuck. I'm a fat old gamer, wtf would I want to exercise? Getting off point but innovation for the sake of innovation is bad and I love the phrase "If it aint broke don't fix it".


    As for Yoshi P, I really respect what he has done as well. But while I respect the man (and honestly worry for his health, he looks like hes aged significantly and always looks like hes severely lacking for sleep) and it seems that he is an extremely hard worker, I just hated the direction he took FFXIV:ARR. I actually would have preferred if they had continued the direction of FFXIV 1.23 and just improved systems and added content. I would have liked it even more if it had been more of a spiritual successor to XI. But after I gave FFXIV:ARR a few months it was clear the obvious WoW like direction they were going. I don't blame Yoshi-P for doing what had to be done to save the game, but I don't have to like it either. Which is why I'm still searching for a home to fill that void XI left behind. And I'm gonna trust Brad and the VR team to make that happen. And I would encourage similarly displaced "ancient throwback" players to join me. I don't expect it to be XI: 2, but at least it wont be the super stream lined travesty of a hollow MMO that the current themeparks offer or the Minecraft with meaningless PvP the current Sandboxes do.


    I also wonder what type of MMO Yoshi-P might have made if he wasn't anchored to FFXIV. If I remember correctly his game of choice back in the day was DAoC. And I know he loved PvP. Maybe after a few years he will hand over the rains and we will see what he is truly capable of if his hands weren't tied?


    And on that thought of PvP, I don't think any PvE folks need to worry about extra dev time/money being spent to specially cater to PvP. I think they probably wont balance it, which it doesn't need to be. It will be more like they just turn on PvP with all PvE combat and objectives in place. No your DPS cant also heal. Your tank is tough but will die. Your healer will heal himself to death. Because its a group focused game with interdependent roles and that wont change because VR turned on the PvP switch. Take your guild mates with you when you go into the wild or die alone.


    Brad, just keep on keepin on brother. Make Pantheon badass. And in the meantime Ill keep playing single player games til Pantheon comes out or the rest of the genre gets a clue about how to make a fun game.


  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 798

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/ValveArtDirector/

    come visit me in game sometime =)
    So you're claiming to be a Valve employee?  And your id is ValveArtDirector?
    LOL really?
    You should list your games.  Would love to see what you've worked on.
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    Damn, Pantheon looks to be shaping up nicely. It's now officially on my radar. 
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    edited December 2016

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/ValveArtDirector/

    come visit me in game sometime =)
    So you're claiming to be a Valve employee?  And your id is ValveArtDirector?
    LOL really?
    You should list your games.  Would love to see what you've worked on.
    lol you must be new here huh? Everyone knows me here.
    I don't  claim anything I am just stating a fact that is commonly known here and around the web but obviously not by you. Do you realize how many developers frequent this site?
    I know of at least 15. You could be one for all I know. Where do you think I get my information for all the news stories I am credited with on this site? I get all the press releases. ;)


     "Why so aggressive bro?"  "Why u angry?"  --Potted Plant 22  lol



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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)
    Will it be launching in 10-15 years? I hear nothing before that time is going to rock.


  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)
    Will it be launching in 10-15 years? I hear nothing before that time is going to rock.
    No one said that.
    The sentiment was the genre will not be BIG again for 10 to 15 years.  ;)
    it has been 12 years now since WOW and nothing has been as big so is it really a stretch to think that?
    Didn't think so.

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    --------------------------------------------
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