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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    I am encouraged by what I am seeing in this, and I think it will probably be the go-to game for my group as long as the gameplay is good. I feel like the visuals are in the realm of where I would want them to be, and with better animations it should be just fine. 

    Seeing that group standing there getting ready to adventure. I saw a group that didn't look like canned archetypes like in a commercial or a MOBA. I felt the excitement of the old games, the energy of dungeon delves past. 
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,560
    I like what I see and where this is going. I cringe when they call it pre-pre-alpha. Anyway coming along nicely but a long way to go. Like no point in a release date yet long way to go.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Xatsh said:
    People should not praise Yoshida or FFXIV. He did a miracle and saved the worst mmo in creation from shutdown and kept the p2p model, major props for that. But what else did they really do that other f2p mmos are not doing. Game is extremely polished but that is it.

    Yoshi-P gets credit for saving a mmo that launched so incomplete and disastrous it was without words. No only did FFXIV launch with out endgame, it launched without midgame, early game, major parts of the battle system, and the dev team did alot of Copy Paste through the land scape, by alot I mean whole zones were made of 6-8 landmass designs turned different directions.

    I give him little credit after that though, the new version of FFXIV is a WoW clone style game that even now through its first 2 expansions is getting more and more dumbed down and casual as time goes. They are following the same content design over and over and over each patch since 2.0. FFXIV has the same retention problem many games have in the genre currently. It is simply because of their design choices.

    Being a large FF fan and someone who played FFXI advidly (about 20,000 ingame hours) I gave them from 1.0 to 3.4 to fix the game, and it was apparent they want it to be something you play in small chunks, something you play with low man groups, something where guild have no real purpose, PvP with litteraly nothing from it, whole open world if solo only - Fates are 20ppl soloing the same mob no interations, raids where it is simpley every class do max dps and dodge the circles, something that where all your work is reset every 6 months. I understand some people love this style of game but myself, my guild of 65 people who were in the game at launch and 2.0, the 143 people who joined and quit the game from my guild in those years very much disagree with the direction he took the game.

    This is my opinion, but I disgree with Yoshida's assessment of the genre as a whole. The reason game are not succeeding is because they are no longer virtual worlds, the bonds of players no longer exist, the attachment to your character no longer exist. What made mmos special is they were more then just games back in the day. I grew to know the people I played with, many became friends outside the game. The genre has went too far from what made is something special. Pantheon, while I do not agree with all Brads decisions, I agree with most and I thank him and his team for taking the genre back to its roots and giving the ability to play in my opinion a mmo again.

    Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game.  But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.


    I basically agree with everything Xtash said. As a FFXI vet I'm very much looking forward to Pantheon, because Xtash is right. Many of us no longer have an MMO home. In some cases the game is no longer in service, for others its unrecognizable from what it once was.


    And my aversion to the current MMOs is not due to lack of trying. Name it and I have probably given it a try (exception for most of the "sandbox" mmos that are PvP but aren't compelling at all). And I can honestly say I have only ever played any Blizzard game once and that was WoW for about 2 days before I uninstalled it. Maybe all I'm interested in is "ancient throwbacks" because I'm not impressed nor particularly interested in most games ideas of innovation. Innovation....... I hear this word and cant help but cringe. Most of the time its just gimmicky crap. Like how the wii introduced the wiimotes and nunchuck. I'm a fat old gamer, wtf would I want to exercise? Getting off point but innovation for the sake of innovation is bad and I love the phrase "If it aint broke don't fix it".


    As for Yoshi P, I really respect what he has done as well. But while I respect the man (and honestly worry for his health, he looks like hes aged significantly and always looks like hes severely lacking for sleep) and it seems that he is an extremely hard worker, I just hated the direction he took FFXIV:ARR. I actually would have preferred if they had continued the direction of FFXIV 1.23 and just improved systems and added content. I would have liked it even more if it had been more of a spiritual successor to XI. But after I gave FFXIV:ARR a few months it was clear the obvious WoW like direction they were going. I don't blame Yoshi-P for doing what had to be done to save the game, but I don't have to like it either. Which is why I'm still searching for a home to fill that void XI left behind. And I'm gonna trust Brad and the VR team to make that happen. And I would encourage similarly displaced "ancient throwback" players to join me. I don't expect it to be XI: 2, but at least it wont be the super stream lined travesty of a hollow MMO that the current themeparks offer or the Minecraft with meaningless PvP the current Sandboxes do.


    I also wonder what type of MMO Yoshi-P might have made if he wasn't anchored to FFXIV. If I remember correctly his game of choice back in the day was DAoC. And I know he loved PvP. Maybe after a few years he will hand over the rains and we will see what he is truly capable of if his hands weren't tied?


    And on that thought of PvP, I don't think any PvE folks need to worry about extra dev time/money being spent to specially cater to PvP. I think they probably wont balance it, which it doesn't need to be. It will be more like they just turn on PvP with all PvE combat and objectives in place. No your DPS cant also heal. Your tank is tough but will die. Your healer will heal himself to death. Because its a group focused game with interdependent roles and that wont change because VR turned on the PvP switch. Take your guild mates with you when you go into the wild or die alone.


    Brad, just keep on keepin on brother. Make Pantheon badass. And in the meantime Ill keep playing single player games til Pantheon comes out or the rest of the genre gets a clue about how to make a fun game.


  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/ValveArtDirector/

    come visit me in game sometime =)
    So you're claiming to be a Valve employee?  And your id is ValveArtDirector?
    LOL really?
    You should list your games.  Would love to see what you've worked on.
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    Damn, Pantheon looks to be shaping up nicely. It's now officially on my radar. 
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,436
    edited December 2016

    http://steamcommunity.com/id/ValveArtDirector/

    come visit me in game sometime =)
    So you're claiming to be a Valve employee?  And your id is ValveArtDirector?
    LOL really?
    You should list your games.  Would love to see what you've worked on.
    lol you must be new here huh? Everyone knows me here.
    I don't  claim anything I am just stating a fact that is commonly known here and around the web but obviously not by you. Do you realize how many developers frequent this site?
    I know of at least 15. You could be one for all I know. Where do you think I get my information for all the news stories I am credited with on this site? I get all the press releases. ;)


     "Why so aggressive bro?"  "Why u angry?"  --Potted Plant 22  lol



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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,436
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)
    Will it be launching in 10-15 years? I hear nothing before that time is going to rock.


  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,436
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Dullahan said:

    Ancient past?  Did you even play Everquest or Vanguard?  The mechanics, community, open world that both had were incredibly detailed and all worked.  A thrilling open world that had consequences on your actions, such as fighting guards or being an asshat to the community which communities then are what made those games incredibly fun and enveloping.  All 3 of those that I mentioned at the beginning are what MMO's have been missing and some of the reasons why most of them have not been all that successful. 

    Community - Something that we haven't seen in a many years.  You grew with your fellow players on your servers.  You got to know them both in-game and on a personal level.  You formed bonds, friendships, relationships.  You ran stuff together, you failed together, you went through trials and tribulations.  All of these made the game better because you got to know your fellow player in the WORLD you were playing in.  Something missing so dearly in these games now.  A vast amount of players now feel so entitled that they don't even know what a community entails and that's sad.  I actually pitty a lot of players now because of what they have missed. I could tell you many names of players character names and their real life names because of the friendships that grew.  I couldn't tell you a single persons name that I have played with in recent years because everything has been so disconnected. 

    Open world -  MMO's since WoW began the massive introduction to instancing, HEAVY instancing use.  EQ at some point had some instances but nothing how it is today.  This is crucial because it completely disconnects you from these game worlds we're taking part in.  Yes, some will say well it helps with raids and it does but I feel it does more harm to the game than anything.

    Mechanics -  Everquest did a LOT right, as did Vanguard(Though again it had its issues no doubt but still very good).  For starters it put the player in control of how powerful their characters could be and by that I mean it engrossed every class as a whole and how they interacted.  If you had an Enchanter in your group, you had significant haste buffs, significant mana regen, significant crowd control, significant debuffs, etc, etc.  BUFFS/DEBUFFS actually played a role in the game and affected you immensely.  Buffs/debuffs nowadays are pointless.  Games have gone away from that and put more so into the gear taking away any interaction between players when it comesto class interaction.  

    I could go on and on but by no means were the features in these games "ancient".  If anything they were and still are a metric ton better than any iterations that we have today which is sad because you think some would say, hey those worked and worked well! Lets capitalize on it and build upon it to make it better than it was/is. 
    Amazing post, Mack. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is, much of what you described above would be compatible with a lot of the things they are so adamant about having from modern games. For instance, as much as many of us may not personally like it, you could take something like twitch gameplay and have it exist in the above environment. As long as you slow the pace enough with downtime, allowing the social aspect, and keep the need for strategy intact, it would still work.

    In short, I find it simplest to describe it as the different between a virtual world and a video game. Unfortunately, the term virtual worlds means little to those who didn't experience them in there prime. Therein lies the disconnect.
    Just wait until you guys see what Amazon is doing ;)
    Will it be launching in 10-15 years? I hear nothing before that time is going to rock.
    No one said that.
    The sentiment was the genre will not be BIG again for 10 to 15 years.  ;)
    it has been 12 years now since WOW and nothing has been as big so is it really a stretch to think that?
    Didn't think so.

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    --------------------------------------------
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,436
    edited December 2016
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    Great post. Cogent and contributing.
    I would be happy with Asheron's Call 3 as I was firmly in the AC camp and not in the EQ camp. Asheron's Call allowed for so much freedom and flexibility in playstyle.
    EQ seemed to restrictive to me.
    Which is why I prefer the single player games like Morrowind and the ES series over say The Witcher series. 

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  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 15
    Xodic said:
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
    hehe
    see these are some of the most iconic things about eq1 that were great

    the fear, dread, and excitement of mis pulling a zone, shouting out train inc, and trying to make it out alive was really frikin fun.  

    mistmoore, cazic, and guk to name a few were so iconically fun

    i cant wait
    i really hope brad and co stay true to what they did in eq
  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 15
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    wow was never original
    wow copied warhammer pretty much verbatim
  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 15
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    Great post. Cogent and contributing.
    I would be happy with Asheron's Call 3 as I was firmly in the AC camp and not in the EQ camp. Asheron's Call allowed for so much freedom and flexibility in playstyle.
    EQ seemed to restrictive to me.
    Which is why I prefer the single player games like Morrowind and the ES series over say The Witcher series. 
    i love open pvp for pve contested areas
    however eq pvp on rallos zek was goofy in that your party members could be damaged by aoe spells from your party
    ie bards ae dps songs

  • HerbinLegendHerbinLegend Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    I agree with most of this, but "9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. " ... many people find standing in one spot pressing hotbar keys equally 'stupid' or boring. Some would argue that action based combat requires more skill and awareness than tab target combat(I'm not seeking to argue this point, just making a point). 

    One thing I liked about the combat in DAoC is that some melee attacks were position dependent, your character had to be on the target's side or behind them; so while you could stand in one place and bash away at your hotkeys, it wasn't always the most efficient means to the end.

    I think Pantheon will rekindle the fires of nostalgia and I hope it delivers the gaming experience its supporters crave; Everquest 1 was a great game.

    Can't get my pen to write in this space.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited December 2016

    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Just thought I would re-respond to this, because I got off on the PvP part before. I noticed Sludge addressed some of these, but I thought I'd elaborate further. I also have to preface this by admitting I find this post confusing. On the one hand you're criticizing Pantheon for it's retrospective design, and then on the other hand you're listing innovative features which should exist in a game ... that are almost all, in some fashion, part of Pantheon. I mean literally, it looks like you pulled your list straight from the Pantheon FAQ. Did you really pledge to this game? If so, have you read anything about it at all?

    Not sure exactly what you mean by spellcrafting (perhaps "designing" your own spells), but Pantheon will have a pretty diverse array of methods in which to add to your ability or spell repertoire. By no means will the game just be about working towards the DING. They couldn't be more clear that focusing purely on experience will leave you very much at a disadvantage, perhaps even to the point where you are no longer able to gain levels because you've gimped yourself by neglecting horizontal progression.

    Right from the start they told us leveling up will not provide you with all of your abilities. Many will be found via drops, quests, and probably other ways as well. Even Vanguard had a system where you learned skills through osmosis from fighting special mobs (please bring this back, VR).

    Also to note, even EQ had crafting of spells by finding components and assembling them through the research tradeskill. Yes, I realize that this probably isn't the spellcrafting you were referring to, but it just shows how there are a lot of "ancient" stuff from games like EQ that have gone the way of the dodo in favor of completely streamlining the process of progression.

    Visionary Realms are putting forth a number of suggestions on how to create a much more vibrant and dynamic combat system. Their ideas on "mob dispositions" is just another name for mob AI. While we only see a few basic examples in the stream of "craven" mobs fleeing combat, the potential for making combat truly dynamic through their proposed system will range from innovative to truly groundbreaking depending on how much time they put into that logic.

    Weather effects and environmental conditions are a huge pillar in Pantheon's world design. You do know this don't you? Not only the way environments affect the players, but the way the effects of the weather can be harnessed by the player to empower them. It's right there in the Atmosphere and Climate system info page almost verbatim, and has been for over a year.

    As to your thoughts on implementing physics, that sounds fascinating. I am not familiar with what Project Gorgon has done because I've put off playing it until launch.

    You should really look in on the game's progress in the last year. You're missing out!


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    None of those "modern" conventions you mention particularly appeal to me. They may sound cool, but they certainly don't make or break a game like you are implying.

    I do agree that we are in a sad state for the genre. Not because a game like Pantheon is reusing MMO mechanics that originated 15+ years ago, but because no other game in the past 15 years has hit the mark.

    The game mechanics that I think do matter in an MMO are:

    1) No cash shop (even cosmetic) period.
    2) No instances. Open world contested, but enough content so the servers do not feel overpopulated.
    3) Subscription payment model.
    4) Emphasis on group based game play and raiding.
    5) Unique classes, with specialization. Healers, crowd control, support classes, etc.
    6) Ability to acquire all the spells and abilities for your class, but limit the amount of spells on your hotbar at a time. None of these skill trees, where you spend points and must specialize within your class.
    7) No linear quest hubs, and set advancements paths from zone to zone.
    8) A FFA PvP server, without creating PvP specific content (no battlegrounds and no pvp rankings). Let the fighting over PvE things be the PvP content. Balance the classes around PvE, not PvP (like the PvP in EQ1 and Vanguard).
    9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. 
    10) Meaningful death. Exp loss and corpse runs from PvE. No exp loss or looting from PvP and no permadeath.

    As far as I know, Pantheon checks off all of these points, and that is why I think it will be a fun game. But it's certainly not for everyone.
    I agree with most of this, but "9) Tab target based combat that requires skill and awareness. The action based combat in MMO's these days, which is basically running around in circles, trying to outflank your opponent, clicking your left mouse button as fast as you can, I find stupid. " ... many people find standing in one spot pressing hotbar keys equally 'stupid' or boring. Some would argue that action based combat requires more skill and awareness than tab target combat(I'm not seeking to argue this point, just making a point). 

    One thing I liked about the combat in DAoC is that some melee attacks were position dependent, your character had to be on the target's side or behind them; so while you could stand in one place and bash away at your hotkeys, it wasn't always the most efficient means to the end.

    I think Pantheon will rekindle the fires of nostalgia and I hope it delivers the gaming experience its supporters crave; Everquest 1 was a great game.
    Just wanted to say I agree big time with your suggestion about DAOC. Positional attacks and ways to increase the movement is something I'm big on and have suggested specifically. I don't want the game to become "action combat" as we currently know it, but I certainly think there needs to be more action ... in the combat.


  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    Dullahan said:
    Visionary Realms are putting forth a number of suggestions on how to create a much more vibrant and dynamic combat system. Their ideas on "mob dispositions" is just another name for mob AI. While we only see a few basic examples in the stream of "craven" mobs fleeing combat, the potential for making combat truly dynamic through their proposed system will range from innovative to truly groundbreaking depending on how much time they put into that logic.

    Thanks Dullahan.  Just wanted to add, and maybe it was too subtle in the stream and we should have pointed it out, but the boss mob fought in Halnir Caves had some pretty sophisticated AI, scripting and disposition.

    1. Sometimes he's un-attackable

    2. When you enter the room he is in the doors close stopping you from escaping.

    3. He spawns minions dynamically, and if you don't beat those down they really get out of control.

    4. He creates a lasting AoE effect you need to pay attention to (say if you're fighting him, you'd better move out of range)

    5. At times he has a spell reflection aura around him and can only take melee damage (e.g. if you fireball him, *you* take the damage instead).

    It's actually a pretty cool fight, takes some thought, and hints at what is to come :)

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    I got loads of things I am worried about with Pantheon, but I must also admit that it is really the only mmorpg that seemingly tries to not go the story driven themepark direction, but instead apply the much missed principles of everquest of what I call open ended content.
    Open ended content is where the player is offered a clue (item drop, npc speak, emote notice, etc) that can be investigated if the player choose - This is giving the player control of their adventures to make their own stories instead of the developers narrative.
    Still somewhat the developers narrative, but in smaller optional bits that does not feel forced - This much overlooked detail makes all the difference.

    I could write a few pages listing my worries in detail but summing it up it would be:
    Are the devs and their hardcore supporters too stuck in retrogressive "p1999" mode ?

    I worry because I care.. I want Pantheon to "succeed" and show this sad genre that there are players for other types of mmorpgs than story driven themepark or pvp gankfest.
  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 49
    Wow, so much hate :)


    If you have been following the game since early 2014 you would know how far it had come, and yes it is still pre pre Alpha, and a long way to go. Sure the graphics don't look as flash as some recent RPG releases, but refer to "pre pre Alpha" and check out some early vid's.

    I think the key point is if you don't like this style of play / direction but enjoy what's currently on offer, then this games not "aimed" at you. It is however aimed at those who want to play a challenging game as a group working of each others skills to achieve the goal, in the style of games past.

    As for comments of nothing innovative, well there is lots of things made to work better (perception questing etc) and unique changes like climate effects and atmospheres (not all demonstrated yet).


    Will it be the MMO genre saviour? to many yes! in that it potentially gives them something they want to play. For others no, as the style is not going to attract everybody, as Cohhcarnage clearly pointed out.
    This is an MMO how a lot of people view MMO's, which is widely different to what the genre has become.

    Personally looking forward to a game that is more than a solo experience with very impersonal dungeon runs.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited December 2016
    punahou said:
    DKLond said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
    wow was never original
    wow copied warhammer pretty much verbatim
    Never said it was terribly original, although it did completely change the way MMOs handled quests and dungeons. Beyond that, the combat system - both in terms of execution and technical accomplishments - was way beyond what came before in fluidity and response.

    Point was, again, that Pantheon is even less original.

    But please note that I'm not particularly focused on originality. It was just to point something out.

    I have no problem with games that take existing concepts and do them better - or simply change them up a bit for a different experience.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.
    The more you use the phrase ancient throwbacks, the more obvious it becomes that you lack any first-hand knowledge of what those games offered and were about.
    The more you blindly bash anyone who disagrees with you, the more obvious it becomes you're not capable of fruitful discussion.

    In the gaming industry, 15-20 years is a very, very long time.

    Games like EverQuest are entirely ancient these days. As I said, I lasted a couple of weeks before I realised the game was almost entirely about the grind. It was limited content stretched out to a ridiculous degree.

    Not surprising, as MMOs were new - and the whole idea of spending months and years playing only one game was pretty rare. Sure, people had been doing that with MUDs - but it was never anywhere near mainstream entertainment.

    UO and EQ were the first to break through and introduce the concept to hundreds of thousands of people.

    I was more of a UO guy - because I always enjoyed the sandbox style of game and EQ, to me, was more like a progression oriented themepark where you moved from area to area with too much emphasis on level and the color of mobs. The rewards simply didn't match the investment. It took a ridiculous amount of time to progress in those games - and I was never that fond of pouring my heart and soul into a big black hole.

    I'm sure you disagree and you found your time well spent.

    That doesn't mean I have to pretend you don't know what you're talking about. It simply means we want different things from our games.

    What I'm claiming is that what YOU want is not as common as you seem to think it is. You seem completely incapable of looking at Pantheon objectively. You seem obsessed with the idea that YOU understand why it's great - and people who don't agree are somehow wrong.

    That makes you arrogant and ignorant - which is a very common combination, sadly.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.
    So, another "I'm so smart and you're so dumb" post with zero arguments or underpinning supporting your point of view.

    I can't say I'm surprised.

    You're like a broken record stuck on "WoW was bad and everything before was great" ;)

    For the record, I stopped playing WoW in 2008 (though I do check out expansions occasionally) - and it bores me to tears these days. The genre has evolved since those days, though I'm sure you're deliberately oblivious to it.

    Then again, I don't suppose you care much about making an impression or appearing like your position is one of merit. One would hope not, for your sake.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    DKLond said:
    Dullahan said:
    You'd be better served dropping the pretense and sitting at the feet of folks in this subforum to learn something, rather than continually putting your ignorance on display. Despite how old you are, how long you may have played video games, or even your understanding of gaming in general, you are unmistakeably a second generation MMO gamer and the philosophy or raison d'etre of first generation MMORPGs is almost entirely foreign to you.

    That's okay, man. It would be childish and unproductive if we held it against you. But just put aside your pride and look past some of the smaller mechanics you dislike and the rationale you've become entrenched in by prolonged exposure to WoW and it's subsequent clones, and consider that there are some truly potent and vital concepts that have fallen by the wayside over the years; which inevitably lead to this lack of success and sustainability in the genre.
    So, another "I'm so smart and you're so dumb" post with zero arguments or underpinning supporting your point of view.

    I can't say I'm surprised.

    You're like a broken record stuck on "WoW was bad and everything before was great" ;)

    For the record, I stopped playing WoW in 2008 (though I do check out expansions occasionally) - and it bores me to tears these days. The genre has evolved since those days, though I'm sure you're deliberately oblivious to it.

    Then again, I don't suppose you care much about making an impression or appearing like your position is one of merit. One would hope not, for your sake.
    I've addressed you plenty of times in the past, but contrary to what you allege against me, it's always a circular argument with you where you come back to "it's old, it was replaced, thus it's bad".

    Sorry, but I won't be running in the circle with you any more. Either take my above instruction, or don't.


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