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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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Comments

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    DKLond said:

    They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.

    There's just no way.

    Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it?
    We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade.
    It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.

    At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen.
    There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research.
    At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method.
    We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.

  • TheJodaTheJoda Member UncommonPosts: 581
    Anyone that claims Wow made the mmo genre just shows their level of intellectual understanding of it.  Wow did help streamline it; however, it was made mainstream by games like U.O and EQ.  

    ....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    edited December 2016
    svann said:
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
    Gotta admit, he doesnt give up.  Took 3 goes to make ff14 work but he eventually got it.
    Agreed he did get it. As Mr Yoshida was not the original producer on FFXIV. Mr Tanaka was.
    Mr Yoshida was brought up to fix it. Which he did.
    Mr Yoshida was the Art Director and was promoted.
     

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  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:

    They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.

    There's just no way.

    Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it?
    We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade.
    It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.

    At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen.
    There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research.
    At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method.
    We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.

    I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter :)

    I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.

    I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.

    In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.

    I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.

    That's not what I'm about at all.

    I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,196
    DKLond said:
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:

    They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.

    There's just no way.

    Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it?
    We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade.
    It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.

    At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen.
    There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research.
    At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method.
    We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.

    I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter :)

    I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.

    I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.

    In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.

    I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.

    That's not what I'm about at all.

    I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
    So when you said "There's just no way" you were just offering an opinion.  Got it.
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    svann said:
    DKLond said:
    ste2000 said:
    DKLond said:

    They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.

    There's just no way.

    Well it is really speculation at this point, isn't it?
    We can't really prove or disprove that, since there hasn't been any new such game for over a decade.
    It's like saying a flying car is not going to be popular because nobody is driving it.

    At the moment there are no solid numbers that can confirm for sure that Pantheon will bomb, though so many people are so sure that's what is going to happen.
    There is not even enough material around to make a decent marketing research.
    At this point is mainly people saying "I don't like it therefore it won't work", hardly a scientific method.
    We need a real benchmark that provides real data, that's why it is important Pantheon gets made.

    I'm not looking to prove anything, simply to give my view on the matter :)

    I don't feel certain because I'm a scientist - but because I've been a gamer for 34 years, and I've seen everything the genre has to offer. Not only that, but I'm a very enthusiastic student of human nature.

    I have absolutely no interest in a "real benchmark" - because I'm not invested in being right about it.

    In fact, I'd love to be wrong - because that means a LOT more people will be happy once the game is out. To me, that's a win.

    I'd have to be a very petty person to wish failure upon the game.

    That's not what I'm about at all.

    I'm simply calling it like I see it. Nothing more and nothing less.
    So when you said "There's just no way" you were just offering an opinion.  Got it.
    That is exactly right. In my opinion, there's absolutely no way Pantheon will make 500K players sustained.

    In that same way, I would once have said that there's absolutely no way Donald Trump will be president.

    See? An opinion is not fact.
  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 14

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    edited December 2016
    Aradune said:
    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:
    With all due respect to Yoshi-P, the original producer & lead designer of EverQuest disagrees.  Pretty sure Todd Coleman (Crowfall) and Richard Garriott (SotA) do too.  Even Raph Koster (UO, SW:G), while not full time on an MMO, is helping out on Crowfall....

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.
    Actually it's the large scale, massively expensive online games (MEOGs?) that have tried to appeal to everyone that have struggled, had retention issues, had to switch to F2P and cash-shops to monetize casual gamers before they bail on the game, etc.  Ask Rob Pardo why they gave up on Titan...  Sure, trying to make a 'WoW killer' is probably folly, but also entirely unnecessary.
    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

    Funding is hard to come by regardless of genre.... even companies devoted to virtual reality are only getting seed funding to 'experiment'.  Big publishers are risk adverse right now (seems to run in cycles), but there are other ways to fund games.

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     But we and others ARE.

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     He may be taking a break but I'm not.

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again
    What magical event is going to occur in 10 or 15 years that will suddenly make them 'big' again?  Perhaps he is frustrated that he can't (or won't) make the MMO of his dreams in the near future, or maybe he needs a break, but I'm living my dream :)

    Rob gave up Titan because it did not cohesively fit together and further their vision as a studio. What they did have was very different and don't think you have seen the last of MMOs from Blizzard ;)

    10 to 15 years that he is talking about?
    Just wait ;)
     
    With all due respect to you Brad I have only seen one completed game from you in Everquest and Bill and Steve had a mighty big hand in that as well. Following that was Vanguard, though brilliant in places, was a bit of a mess so color me cautious.

     








    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big (huge, genre changing).  All of which supports my assertion that MEOGs are not the way to go.

    Not 'cohesively fitting together' and 'not fitting in with their vision' is white-washed press release baloney and most certainly would have been realized far earlier (Titan was fairly far along when cancelled).  Also given the talent and resources that team had, extremely unlikely.

    That said, will they eventually tackle another MMO? I sure hope so, but according to you they shouldn't, right?  They need to wait 10-15 years for that magical moment you seem unwilling to articulate.

    Yes, Steve & Bill were key to EQ's design, which is why you see them in the credits where due (I wrote the credits, btw).

    VG was a mess at launch because we had to release 6 months early.  When it was cleaned up, it still ran 7 years (and EQ is still going).  All of this has been re-hashed a hundred times.  But if producing & managing (and learning from both my success and my mistakes) two MMOs (how many people have done that?) colors you cautious, so be it.

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 980
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    Xodic said:
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
    I wouldn't rule out kiting... tweaked so it's A tactic and not THE tactic (e.g. because it's broken) is however likely.

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 980
    Aradune said:
    Xodic said:
    punahou said:

    I'm am excited about the game-- as this will be EQ201X-- let their be no doubt.


    From the classes to their roles, this is EQ.

    Does anyone know if the devs have said anything about combat and runspeed?  I will be very upset if they lock down your runspeed in combat like EQ2.

    I am a huge proponent of movement buffs that empower classes to kite and for its group utility.

    Judging from the stream there are already movement speed buffs and it doesn't seem like being engaged changes your movement speed. Also, they did have to call out 'train', so the reset range for mobs are most likely zone wide.

    I assume you will be able to kite.
    I wouldn't rule out kiting... tweaked so it's A tactic and not THE tactic (e.g. because it's broken) is however likely.
    Fair enough, but the first time I see "You have been summoned" while pulling trash mobs I'll be mailing you my broken monitor with an invoice - at the depreciated value of course. :awesome:

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    edited December 2016
    Aradune said:
    Aradune said:
    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:
    With all due respect to Yoshi-P, the original producer & lead designer of EverQuest disagrees.  Pretty sure Todd Coleman (Crowfall) and Richard Garriott (SotA) do too.  Even Raph Koster (UO, SW:G), while not full time on an MMO, is helping out on Crowfall....

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.
    Actually it's the large scale, massively expensive online games (MEOGs?) that have tried to appeal to everyone that have struggled, had retention issues, had to switch to F2P and cash-shops to monetize casual gamers before they bail on the game, etc.  Ask Rob Pardo why they gave up on Titan...  Sure, trying to make a 'WoW killer' is probably folly, but also entirely unnecessary.
    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

    Funding is hard to come by regardless of genre.... even companies devoted to virtual reality are only getting seed funding to 'experiment'.  Big publishers are risk adverse right now (seems to run in cycles), but there are other ways to fund games.

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     But we and others ARE.

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     He may be taking a break but I'm not.

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again
    What magical event is going to occur in 10 or 15 years that will suddenly make them 'big' again?  Perhaps he is frustrated that he can't (or won't) make the MMO of his dreams in the near future, or maybe he needs a break, but I'm living my dream :)

    Rob gave up Titan because it did not cohesively fit together and further their vision as a studio. What they did have was very different and don't think you have seen the last of MMOs from Blizzard ;)

    10 to 15 years that he is talking about?
    Just wait ;)
     
    With all due respect to you Brad I have only seen one completed game from you in Everquest and Bill and Steve had a mighty big hand in that as well. Following that was Vanguard, though brilliant in places, was a bit of a mess so color me cautious.

     








    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big.  All of which supports my assertion that MEOGs are not the way to go.

    Not 'cohesively fitting together' and 'not fitting in with their vision' is white-washed press release baloney and most certainly would have been realized far earlier (Titan was fairly far along when cancelled).  Also given the talent and resources that team had, extremely unlikely.

    That said, will they eventually tackle another MMO? I sure hope so, but according to you they shouldn't, right?  They need to wait 10-15 years for that magical moment you seem unwilling to articulate.

    Yes, Steve & Bill were key to EQ's design, which is why you see them in the credits where due (I wrote the credits, btw).

    VG was a mess at launch because we had to release 6 months early.  When it was cleaned up, it still ran 7 years (and EQ is still going).  All of this has been re-hashed a hundred times.  But if producing two MMOs (how many people have done that?) colors you cautious, so be it.
    Yes I am well aware of who made EQ but just because you helped launch two games years and years ago does not mean you can do so again. As your pitfalls from the beginning of this endeavor has shown. You can not fault some of us for being a touch skeptical now can you?
    You helped produce two MMOs agreed. As many have done in the industry.
    Even some on this site ;) 
    You can be as snarky as you feel you need to but many here and around the world are claiming to have been waiting for a spiritual successor to your own EQ game more than 10 to 15 years later haven't they?
    So why would 10 to 15 years from now be out of the question for the genre to be big once more?
    Doesn't seem to be out of the question since for some people it has already been that long.

    btw, yes Blizzard will tackle the MMO genre in the coming years, hence the 10 to 15 years. Development time and lessons learned from Titan are key =)


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  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    Personally I'm looking forward to Pantheon coming out, I've not settled into any MMO since I stopped playing EQ and VG, everything just doesn't seem to have anything in it that keeps me playing like it did in EQ and VG.

    I played EQ for 16 years, 10 of which I was a raider, I loved VG, it was my downtime game when not playing EQ.

    Something needs to radically change in the MMO market or we're just going to get lumped with the same shit we've had to endure since WoW came to prominence.

    I'll admit I've not yet bought into Pantheon (moneywise) as I'm not 100% swayed by crowdfunding, but if Brad was to say that they need the cash to finish and needed people to pledge, I'd pledge now, I think Pantheon is something that needs to happen and needs to succeed.

    And while I see Brad is here on the thread a big thanks for those 16 years of EQ (And VG) met my wife in EQ and been married 13 years now, without EQ I'd not have a game to benchmark very other game against.
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Aradune said:
    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big.

    Coincidentally that's exactly what I said 5 years ago when I  predicted that Titan wasn't going to be a MMORPG but a Massive FPS or a MOBA, it turned out they made Overwatch, so I wasn't wrong.
    From a business point of view it was only logic that  Blizzard wouldn't want a similar product to directly compete with WoW, that would have split their player base while doubling the costs and halving the margin.

    Just to show to @blueturtle13 that you don't need to work for Valve to understand the Gaming Industry.

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    ste2000 said:
    Aradune said:
    I'm not going to speak for Rob, but my understanding was that spending so much money and launching another WoW-level project wasn't going to 1. match WoW's level of success (which it needed to) and 2. more importantly, reach millions of people who were not already WoW players and therefore grow the gamespace again.  When they became unconvinced of this, as Blizzard is wont to do, they canned it.  When Blizzard does something, they expect it to be big.

    Coincidentally that's exactly what I said 5 years ago when I  predicted that Titan wasn't going to be a MMORPG but a Massive FPS or a MOBA, it turned out they made Overwatch, so I wasn't wrong.
    From a business point of view it was only logic that  Blizzard wouldn't want a similar product to directly compete with WoW, that would have split their player base while doubling the costs and halving the margin.

    Just to show to @blueturtle13 that you don't need to work for Valve to understand the Gaming Industry.
    You are half right about Titan ;)

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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016

    You are half right about Titan ;)
    Tell me about the other half I am not right about.....I hate the suspense.

    In 2009 Jeff Kaplan stepped down from WoW to become Producer of Project Titan, then he became the Producer of Overwatch,.........Project Titan became Overwatch.
    Is this also half right?

    I knew they were going to make Overwatch before Blizzard knew it.
    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
  • VorpalChicken28VorpalChicken28 Member UncommonPosts: 348
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Well it's in alpha atm so kinda expected
    “Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” 
    ― Terry PratchettMaking Money
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    vorpal28 said:
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Well it's in alpha atm so kinda expected
    Fair enough. Let's see how much it evolves in that sense.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.

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  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 980
    edited December 2016
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Member RarePosts: 580
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,823
    edited December 2016
    Xodic said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    To be fair that can be said of most studios not just Blizzard. They make billions so they must be doing something right.....for years.
    Right, because marketing brings in money, and the amount of money made reflects how great the game is...
    Not sure what you mean. Marketing is the reason they are successful? Hardly.
    Didn't help Battleborn at all even though I saw commercials all the time for it.
    No one said anything about how 'great' they are it is just common sense that they are very successful and for what they try and accomplish they do. They sell a lot of copies of their games and have millions of fans in multiple genres.

     

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  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    DKLond said:
    vorpal28 said:
    Blizzard just seem to take an existing idea, polish it and release it, I've to see them release anything truly original
    True enough.

    Pantheon seems like the same thing, except without the polish ;)
    Yep, cause the constant reminder that it was a pre pre-alpha build they were playing doesn't mean anything at all.  If you've seen any previous videos you would have seen the strides and progress they have made from 1 video to the next.  Graphically, gameplay, animation, sound, all of it was vastly improved within 1 video.  With the small dev team that they have, they have done an incredible job within that small time frame.  That speaks volumes. Actually SEEING improvement is what matters and they've made significant strides.  That alone shows the work they're doing.  You can't say that about a LOT of video game companies. Blizzard is removed from this equation because of the size of their dev teams.. I mean WoW has over 500 people working on the game alone...
    Sure it means something.

    It means that we can expect it to improve.

    However, it doesn't mean it will reach Blizzard levels of polish - nor would anyone sane expect it to do so.

    But I'm keeping an open mind, so let's just see how polished it gets before release.

    However, the point is that Pantheon is anything but original. In fact, I would claim it's even less original than WoW was at release - which is saying something.
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