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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    Oh, so not being impressed by this game means I'm out to destroy the entire genre?

    That makes a ton of sense ;)

    Certainly doesn't make you sound like a blind fanatic at all.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:


    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:

    Again a superficial analysis.
    People began to leave those kind of games (EQ, AC, DAOC) because of WoW a new (at the time) modern MMO that included the best features of those 3 games.
    WoW at launch was very similar to those 3 games, it was a huge time sink, and it was popular, those players left those games for a better Time Sink MMO.

    Blizzard then slowly fazed out the time sink and made the game very casual.
    It wasn't the players that asked for that, it's Blizzard that thought that was what people wanted, but maybe Blizz was wrong?
    Have you ever wondered why there is so much demand for a WoW Vanilla server?
    Because Vanilla WoW was the last Ttime Sink MMO ever made, there is nothing else people can play apart EQ, AC, and DaoC (13 y/o games)

    So to make it more clear, Blizzard killed the Time Sink MMOs starting from WoW itself, but it did so without a real reason behind that decision, except maybe the need to attract mainstream players that never played MMOs, and that decision made sense for a while.
    But the Time Sink crowd is still there and not satisfied with the options available at the moment.

    Also just to clarify, no one here is saying that Pantheon would be the savior of MMORPGs, so much that even the Developed branded the game a niche game.
    So not sure where the "Pantheon will be the savior of MMORPGs" came from, nobody is claiming that.
    It will be my savior, and that is good enough for me.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    DKLond said:
    I didn't start playing MMOs seriously until I got my GF playing WoW.
    Yeah, we can tell.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    DKLond said:
    I didn't start playing MMOs seriously until I got my GF playing WoW.
    Yeah, we can tell.
    Is this your way of not trolling? :)

    I see you just can't help yourself when people don't love your dream game.

    I'm not saying Pantheon is a bad game at all, so calm down.

    I'm saying it's a throwback to ancient times that will have limited appeal. Some of its fans seem to understand this, so is it really a problem that some of us aren't in love with quirky visuals and exhausting TTK?

    Deal with it already. You don't have to defend it at every turn.
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,125
    In my opinion with all the MMORPGs currently available there are enough games to go around and if Pantheon wants to cater to the people who originally loved and want another Everquest I don't see why that is not a valid or feasible idea. There is no need to put down the game for doing exactly what its core fans want and there is also no need to take umbrage when people do criticise it for the same reason. 

    I am supporting this game for the reason that it will be like Everquest.

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    kitarad said:
    In my opinion with all the MMORPGs currently available there are enough games to go around and if Pantheon wants to cater to the people who originally loved and want another Everquest I don't see why that is not a valid or feasible idea. There is no need to put down the game for doing exactly what its core fans want and there is also no need to take umbrage when people do criticise it for the same reason. 

    I am supporting this game for the reason that it will be like Everquest.
    Agreed. I actually supported the game and still want to see it succeed yet I am also not claiming it the answer to the MMO genre for an old school MMORPG. The game is not even in beta yet. I will not deem it worthy of the crown until and if it ever releases and I actually play it. By then there is going to be some mean competition. I wish it and it's developers luck.  

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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    ste2000 said:
    ste2000 said:


    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:

    Again a superficial analysis.
    People began to leave those kind of games (EQ, AC, DAOC) because of WoW a new (at the time) modern MMO that included the best features of those 3 games.
    WoW at launch was very similar to those 3 games, it was a huge time sink, and it was popular, those players left those games for a better Time Sink MMO.

    Blizzard then slowly fazed out the time sink and made the game very casual.
    It wasn't the players that asked for that, it's Blizzard that thought that was what people wanted, but maybe Blizz was wrong?
    Have you ever wondered why there is so much demand for a WoW Vanilla server?
    Because Vanilla WoW was the last Ttime Sink MMO ever made, there is nothing else people can play apart EQ, AC, and DaoC (13 y/o games)

    So to make it more clear, Blizzard killed the Time Sink MMOs starting from WoW itself, but it did so without a real reason behind that decision, except maybe the need to attract mainstream players that never played MMOs, and that decision made sense for a while.
    But the Time Sink crowd is still there and not satisfied with the options available at the moment.

    Also just to clarify, no one here is saying that Pantheon would be the savior of MMORPGs, so much that even the Developed branded the game a niche game.
    So not sure where the "Pantheon will be the savior of MMORPGs" came from, nobody is claiming that.
    It will be my savior, and that is good enough for me.


    Your need to defend a game that is not even in beta yet and I, myself, supported seems superficial, not my cautiously optimistic skepticism of whether it can deliver on what it is aiming for.  
    I never said I want the game to fail. I am just weary of a game's promise to deliver only to be let down. I am more guarded than that. How many times do we as gamers and even more so MMORPG fans have to be let down by games in the genre before we learn to temper our enthusiasm and cut the hype and just see it for what it is and take it as it comes?
    As I have said repeatedly, I hope it succeeds. I am just being very cautious about whether it can.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    Aradune said:
    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:
    With all due respect to Yoshi-P, the original producer & lead designer of EverQuest disagrees.  Pretty sure Todd Coleman (Crowfall) and Richard Garriott (SotA) do too.  Even Raph Koster (UO, SW:G), while not full time on an MMO, is helping out on Crowfall....

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.
    Actually it's the large scale, massively expensive online games (MEOGs?) that have tried to appeal to everyone that have struggled, had retention issues, had to switch to F2P and cash-shops to monetize casual gamers before they bail on the game, etc.  Ask Rob Pardo why they gave up on Titan...  Sure, trying to make a 'WoW killer' is probably folly, but also entirely unnecessary.
    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

    Funding is hard to come by regardless of genre.... even companies devoted to virtual reality are only getting seed funding to 'experiment'.  Big publishers are risk adverse right now (seems to run in cycles), but there are other ways to fund games.

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     But we and others ARE.

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     He may be taking a break but I'm not.

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again
    What magical event is going to occur in 10 or 15 years that will suddenly make them 'big' again?  Perhaps he is frustrated that he can't (or won't) make the MMO of his dreams in the near future, or maybe he needs a break, but I'm living my dream :)

    Rob gave up Titan because it did not cohesively fit together and further their vision as a studio. What they did have was very different and don't think you have seen the last of MMOs from Blizzard ;)

    10 to 15 years that he is talking about?
    Just wait ;)
     
    With all due respect to you Brad I have only seen one completed game from you in Everquest and Bill and Steve had a mighty big hand in that as well. Following that was Vanguard, though brilliant in places, was a bit of a mess so color me cautious.

     








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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:

    Your need to defend a game that is not even in beta yet and I, myself, supported seems superficial, not my cautiously optimistic skepticism of whether it can deliver on what it is aiming for.  

    I am defending the concept not the finished product or the game itself, though the subject of this topic is Pantheon so I talk about this game.
    It is actually pretty clear from my posts.
    Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    ste2000 said:
    ste2000 said:

    Your need to defend a game that is not even in beta yet and I, myself, supported seems superficial, not my cautiously optimistic skepticism of whether it can deliver on what it is aiming for.  

    I am defending the concept not the finished product or the game itself, though the subject of this topic is Pantheon so I talk about this game.
    It is actually pretty clear from my posts.
    Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.
    I thought we were having a cogent conversation. You are picking a fight where there is none my friend. ;)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:
    I am defending the concept not the finished product or the game itself, though the subject of this topic is Pantheon so I talk about this game.
    It is actually pretty clear from my posts.
    Find better arguments to counter act my point of view.
    I thought we were having a cogent conversation. You are picking a fight where there is none my friend. ;)
    I am not picking up a fight, just rebutting your veiled accusations of being a fanboy, when it was actually clear I was talking about the genre it belongs to.

    I am not the one pointing fingers or patronizing others, like you keep doing.
    So if there is someone who want to pick up a fight, it is not certainly me.

    I would like to have a meaningful conversation.
    But you should be a bit more open minded and stop categorizing people and games following old tired standards.
    It is not a good way to carry a conversation.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,618
    Watching the video again..

    The Overworld design reminds me a lot of ESO. The ground , grass and rocks look very similar. I dont know if they took any inspiration from that game but it wouldnt bother me if so since I think ESOs world looks fantastic.


  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Well when you have been beat over the head with no risk vs reward, linear quest hub themeparks for 10+ years...I'm not gonna threaten to not play over some older mechanics.  These people that say they are not going to try the game must really love the state of the genre as it stands...I envy them.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    kitarad said:
    In my opinion with all the MMORPGs currently available there are enough games to go around and if Pantheon wants to cater to the people who originally loved and want another Everquest I don't see why that is not a valid or feasible idea. There is no need to put down the game for doing exactly what its core fans want and there is also no need to take umbrage when people do criticise it for the same reason. 

    I am supporting this game for the reason that it will be like Everquest.
    I don't know why expressing honest dislike based on a public video is "putting it down"?

    We're on a public forum dedicated to MMOs - and we each have our own opinions. Is it a problem to have a negative opinion about games sometimes?

    Because that doesn't make any sense to me.

    Unless, of course, we just want a huge confirmation fest where no one ever learns anything about each other.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 798
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    Mardukk said:
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Well when you have been beat over the head with no risk vs reward, linear quest hub themeparks for 10+ years...I'm not gonna threaten to not play over some older mechanics.  These people that say they are not going to try the game must really love the state of the genre as it stands...I envy them.


    I financially backed Pantheon so not sure where the threaten to not play it came from. I feel it is people's own faults if they feel beaten down over the last 10+ years by games they do not like as there ARE games out there that are not like that. Play FFXIV. Play Albion Online. Play Project Gorgon. Play ESO. Play SkySaga. Play Gloria Victis. There are games out there to play they just might not be to your taste. =)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 798
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
    Yoshi-P is regarded in his success of a reboot of an MMO that was so disastrous that expectations were so low it was at a bargain basement level.  I like FF14:ARR and think he deserves accolades for saving the brand.  However extrapolating that means his influence extends beyond that says more about your personal taste and opinion of the man than reality.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
    Yoshi-P is regarded in his success of a reboot of an MMO that was so disastrous that expectations were so low it was at a bargain basement level.  I like FF14:ARR and think he deserves accolades for saving the brand.  However extrapolating that means his influence extends beyond that says more about your personal taste and opinion of the man than reality.
    It was the biggest turn around in MMO history and is an amazing example of talent and vision that allowed him and his (chosen) team to do what studios like SOE were never able to do.
    His influence is felt by many a professional in the industry. Many of us in the industry nearly have his number on speed dial. Just ask Pardo, Jacobs and O'Brien ;)

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 798
    Many of us in the industry nearly have his number on speed dial. Just ask Pardo, Jacobs and O'Brien ;)
    Please.  Downloading the Unity Tutorial doesn't make you 'in the industry.'

  • XatshXatsh Member UncommonPosts: 316
    People should not praise Yoshida or FFXIV. He did a miracle and saved the worst mmo in creation from shutdown and kept the p2p model, major props for that. But what else did they really do that other f2p mmos are not doing. Game is extremely polished but that is it.

    Yoshi-P gets credit for saving a mmo that launched so incomplete and disastrous it was without words. No only did FFXIV launch with out endgame, it launched without midgame, early game, major parts of the battle system, and the dev team did alot of Copy Paste through the land scape, by alot I mean whole zones were made of 6-8 landmass designs turned different directions.

    I give him little credit after that though, the new version of FFXIV is a WoW clone style game that even now through its first 2 expansions is getting more and more dumbed down and casual as time goes. They are following the same content design over and over and over each patch since 2.0. FFXIV has the same retention problem many games have in the genre currently. It is simply because of their design choices.

    Being a large FF fan and someone who played FFXI advidly (about 20,000 ingame hours) I gave them from 1.0 to 3.4 to fix the game, and it was apparent they want it to be something you play in small chunks, something you play with low man groups, something where guild have no real purpose, PvP with litteraly nothing from it, whole open world if solo only - Fates are 20ppl soloing the same mob no interations, raids where it is simpley every class do max dps and dodge the circles, something that where all your work is reset every 6 months. I understand some people love this style of game but myself, my guild of 65 people who were in the game at launch and 2.0, the 143 people who joined and quit the game from my guild in those years very much disagree with the direction he took the game.

    This is my opinion, but I disgree with Yoshida's assessment of the genre as a whole. The reason game are not succeeding is because they are no longer virtual worlds, the bonds of players no longer exist, the attachment to your character no longer exist. What made mmos special is they were more then just games back in the day. I grew to know the people I played with, many became friends outside the game. The genre has went too far from what made is something special. Pantheon, while I do not agree with all Brads decisions, I agree with most and I thank him and his team for taking the genre back to its roots and giving the ability to play in my opinion a mmo again.

    Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game.  But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,825
    edited December 2016
    Many of us in the industry nearly have his number on speed dial. Just ask Pardo, Jacobs and O'Brien ;)
    Please.  Downloading the Unity Tutorial doesn't make you 'in the industry.'


    http://steamcommunity.com/id/ValveArtDirector/

    come visit me in game sometime =)

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  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,921
    edited December 2016
    image
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    edited December 2016
    Pantheon will not be the savior of the genre, most the players in the mmo genre will hate this game.  But then again most the genre came to be with the WoW model, and not even the early wow model. This game is for the people without a home, people who do not want the modern casual or action mmo experiance. I do not think the niche is small though. Games were hitting 500k-1mill back in the day with this style. Those players didn't vanish, they are still here. Smaller then the mainstream mmo but still here and we have been without a home for awhile now. We are the people looking to pantheon.

    I was among those 500K - but that doesn't mean I want to go back in time and play ancient throwbacks.

    In the early days, these games were all we had - and there's a GIGANTIC difference between EQ and "the ideal MMO" - and I would claim that most of the fans of the genre played games like UO and EQ because they wanted the fantasy RPG multiplayer experience - not specifically the EQ/UO experience.

    Also, most people evolve over time - they don't sit around waiting for a nostalgic trip to latch on to, so they can relive their youth. Such things rarely last.

    They might enjoy it for a few weeks or months - but the majority will find that times have changed, and Pantheon will never sustain 500K players.

    There's just no way.



  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,196
    edited December 2016
    I find it laughable that Yoshi-P is being seen as an authority on what will be successful for Western audiences for MMORPGs.  He has made it blatantly obvious that Japan is the priority for FF14.  The west reception has always been a wonderful side-effect for them and not a focus.  He has no idea what western players love anymore than what a western design team would know about what works for an asian market.  You can look at what works and try to emulate that (see WoW clone era) or go with what you know.  Final Fantasy 14 went with a design system that Yoshi-P knows and is familiar with and something they thought would work for a Japan centric audience.  They've openly talked about that.  What makes what Brad and company is doing with Pantheon any different?  They're using EQ and Vanguard to a lesser extent as an influence.  I'm sure the game will go through plenty of iterations before it hits launch based on player feedback.
    Mr Yoshida is a highly regarded person in gaming and respected the world over for his contributions to the RPG and MMO genre. His love of the MMO genre goes well beyond just the shores of Japan which is why FFXIV remains one of the most successful sub-based games in the genre. Even in the West.
    Gotta admit, he doesnt give up.  Took 3 goes to make ff14 work but he eventually got it.
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