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Pantheon Second Gameplay Stream Overview

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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    1. PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    2. Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    3. A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    4. Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Hey BlueTurtle, so im not sure if you got a chance to watch the stream or my video but I highly recommend checking out either for more info - based off a few points you stated here. Allow me to elucidate. 

    1. PVP is being done as a separate server - it is in no associated with the core game, but they understand people do have an interest in this type of gameplay and will have an option to chose a PVP server at launch.

    2. Physics are def in the game right now, even in a pre-alpha capacity - and most certainty have mechanics in place relating to different elements. They have necromancers that can knock back enemies or force them to go off route (disrupt walking), frozen caverns where players can slip across the floor as they run causing them to go off balance. (Ill talk a bit more about this in point 4)

    3. While I cant speak to what the future holds for Dynamic AI - I was personally impressed by the perception system and the world reacting to you rather than the other way around. It was nice to see a player walking idley by an NPC and having them initiate the dialogue and not the other way around (at the players consent of course). There is definitely some groundwork here to go beyond just simply talking to NPC to grab a quest and that's it.

    4. Going off of point 2 - They already have in place certain areas where they have for example a "Frigid" Acclimation. This means if you go into a snow mountain, you will want to bring spells to counter the constant cold of the area. Coldark Dwarves get an automatic bonus resist against cold, so they can survive easier in these climates but others will need a form of heat distriubtion through spells or what have you, armor, to get through with business as usual.

    My favorite example of this was actually found in the final area they travelled to in the stream known as Amber Fate  - Where the players stumbled upon a giant forge buried in the top of the vertical dungeon. 

    The Forge is used by an NPC Master Smith, and there is a physical (You can see the acclimation's in the form of an aura around the area) area around the forge where it is so Hot that if anyone was to go down and try and use the forge without proper protection they will quickly die from the environment.

    So then they put forth the idea that if you got special armor to block the heat, and began doing quests and talking with this smith, you could eventually develop a relationship with him and be allowed access to his forge, which can be used to make special materials. 

    That right there is what makes Pantheon so great in my eyes, is the forethought of "Emergent Gameplay", thats a Feature (yes a feature) that I have absolutely missed in MMO's for some time, and its one the major reasons im so excited for Pantheon.

    Anyways, I respect your opinion either way, and if this game isnt for you I completely understand, I just wanted to explain that some features your looking for or interested in, are in the game right now in a Raw Pre-alpha state. 
    Well I did back the game and financially supported it. I am just waiting for a more complete state before declaring it the savior for the fantasy MMORPG genre.
    As I have been privy to and worked on and become educated about some newer games in the pipeline, my interest in MMORPGs going beyond the archaic and into the new is becoming more important to me than just an EQ3. Which I have no issue with if that is the type of game it turns out to be it just may not be for me.
    I wish the team much love and luck!   

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • sludgebeardsludgebeard Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    1. PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    2. Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    3. A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    4. Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    Hey BlueTurtle, so im not sure if you got a chance to watch the stream or my video but I highly recommend checking out either for more info - based off a few points you stated here. Allow me to elucidate. 

    1. PVP is being done as a separate server - it is in no associated with the core game, but they understand people do have an interest in this type of gameplay and will have an option to chose a PVP server at launch.

    2. Physics are def in the game right now, even in a pre-alpha capacity - and most certainty have mechanics in place relating to different elements. They have necromancers that can knock back enemies or force them to go off route (disrupt walking), frozen caverns where players can slip across the floor as they run causing them to go off balance. (Ill talk a bit more about this in point 4)

    3. While I cant speak to what the future holds for Dynamic AI - I was personally impressed by the perception system and the world reacting to you rather than the other way around. It was nice to see a player walking idley by an NPC and having them initiate the dialogue and not the other way around (at the players consent of course). There is definitely some groundwork here to go beyond just simply talking to NPC to grab a quest and that's it.

    4. Going off of point 2 - They already have in place certain areas where they have for example a "Frigid" Acclimation. This means if you go into a snow mountain, you will want to bring spells to counter the constant cold of the area. Coldark Dwarves get an automatic bonus resist against cold, so they can survive easier in these climates but others will need a form of heat distriubtion through spells or what have you, armor, to get through with business as usual.

    My favorite example of this was actually found in the final area they travelled to in the stream known as Amber Fate  - Where the players stumbled upon a giant forge buried in the top of the vertical dungeon. 

    The Forge is used by an NPC Master Smith, and there is a physical (You can see the acclimation's in the form of an aura around the area) area around the forge where it is so Hot that if anyone was to go down and try and use the forge without proper protection they will quickly die from the environment.

    So then they put forth the idea that if you got special armor to block the heat, and began doing quests and talking with this smith, you could eventually develop a relationship with him and be allowed access to his forge, which can be used to make special materials. 

    That right there is what makes Pantheon so great in my eyes, is the forethought of "Emergent Gameplay", thats a Feature (yes a feature) that I have absolutely missed in MMO's for some time, and its one the major reasons im so excited for Pantheon.

    Anyways, I respect your opinion either way, and if this game isnt for you I completely understand, I just wanted to explain that some features your looking for or interested in, are in the game right now in a Raw Pre-alpha state. 
    Well I did back the game and financially supported it. I am just waiting for a more complete state before declaring it the savior for the fantasy MMORPG genre.
    As I have been privy to and worked on and become educated about some newer games in the pipeline, my interest in MMORPGs going beyond the archaic and into the new is becoming more important to me than just an EQ3. Which I have no issue with if that is the type of game it turns out to be it just may not be for me.
    I wish the team much love and luck!   
    Totally agree, and I honestly am 100% about being an informed consumer and asking questions, not just assuming everything thats written on paper. 

    Glad to see more solid discussion coming out of this community in general.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,190
    edited December 2016
    delete
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,190
    Didnt like the shiny rock so much.  Hopefully its just unfinished textures or there is a lore reason why this dungeon is so shiny.  And they need to increase falling damage.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited December 2016
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    First, the game isn't designed for PvP, and neither was EQ, but EQ PvP was amazing for that very reason. It gave us something worth fighting for: the progression. That's better than any other PvP title I've ever played.

    There are plenty of new things that Pantheon has or will offer. What we see in these streams combat wise (and really everything else) is very pre-alpha. We're talking about low level classes without all of their abilities. We're also looking at very basic mobs without the NPC dispositions or "AI".

    These are the things that will make combat much more interesting and engaging. In these streams so far, classes have had very limited ability pools and only really needed basic CC, healing and damage abilities. Once mobs become harder and players are given more offensive and defensive decisions to make, that will seriously change the way things work and the feel of combat.

    The game is (or will be) quite unique. The comparisons you made were pretty off in most cases. You should really watch the latest stream all the way through, because it sounds like you might have missed it.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    svann said:
    Didnt like the shiny rock so much.  Hopefully its just unfinished textures or there is a lore reason why this dungeon is so shiny.  And they need to increase falling damage.
    If you mean the ceiling rock in the vertical dungeon I think they are meant to be shiny since they are made of ice (not snow)

  • SinsaiSinsai Member UncommonPosts: 401
    Wow.

    Looking nice and can't wait to play.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,190
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:
    svann said:
    Didnt like the shiny rock so much.  Hopefully its just unfinished textures or there is a lore reason why this dungeon is so shiny.  And they need to increase falling damage.
    If you mean the ceiling rock in the vertical dungeon I think they are meant to be shiny since they are made of ice (not snow)
    No I meant the ground.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    edited December 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    First, the game isn't designed for PvP, and neither was EQ, but EQ PvP was amazing for that very reason. It gave us something worth fighting for: the progression. That's better than any other PvP title I've ever played.

    There are plenty of new things that Pantheon has or will offer. What we see in these streams combat wise (and really everything else) is very pre-alpha. We're talking about low level classes without all of their abilities. We're also looking at very basic mobs without the NPC dispositions or "AI".

    These are the things that will make combat much more interesting and engaging. In these streams so far, classes have had very limited ability pools and only really needed basic CC, healing and damage abilities. Once mobs become harder and players are given more offensive and defensive decisions to make, that will seriously change the way things work and the feel of combat.

    The game is (or will be) quite unique. The comparisons you made were pretty off in most cases. You should really watch the latest stream all the way through, because it sounds like you might have missed it.
    I did watch them and I actually supported the game financially, yet I am not going to fawn over a game and it's potential until it is in release state. For now I am going to objectively critique what is shown to me. I have zero agenda and hope it is a success. As I see more and more of it I am beginning to wonder if it will be the type of game that I really want to play at this stage of my life. The game seems to mirror the time sinks of the past generations of classic MMORPGs and those are not the type of games I am able, nor willing, to play anymore.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Dullahan said:
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    First, the game isn't designed for PvP, and neither was EQ, but EQ PvP was amazing for that very reason. It gave us something worth fighting for: the progression. That's better than any other PvP title I've ever played.

    There are plenty of new things that Pantheon has or will offer. What we see in these streams combat wise (and really everything else) is very pre-alpha. We're talking about low level classes without all of their abilities. We're also looking at very basic mobs without the NPC dispositions or "AI".

    These are the things that will make combat much more interesting and engaging. In these streams so far, classes have had very limited ability pools and only really needed basic CC, healing and damage abilities. Once mobs become harder and players are given more offensive and defensive decisions to make, that will seriously change the way things work and the feel of combat.

    The game is (or will be) quite unique. The comparisons you made were pretty off in most cases. You should really watch the latest stream all the way through, because it sounds like you might have missed it.
    I did watch them and I actually supported the game financially, yet I am not going to fawn over a game and it's potential until it is in release state. For now I am going to objectively critique what is shown to me. I have zero agenda and hope it is a success. As I see more and more of it I am beginning to wonder if it will be the type of game that I really want to play at this stage of my life. The game seems to mirror the time sinks of the past generations of classic MMORPGs and those are not the type of games I am able, nor willing, to play anymore.
    Only if you feel it necessary to be in the best guild, lead in content progression, and have a top geared character. If those aren't your intentions, I think there will be a lot to enjoy as a casual player. I actually found playing EQ sporadically in the early years really fun at times, because it meant going off in random directions and meeting new players every session. Whereas, when you play competitively and compulsively, you basically become locked in to a pre-made group or guild and more rigidly following a plan for maximum efficiency.

    Every year that goes by it seems like I have less time to play than the one before. Yet I still intend to carve out time for Pantheon because, unlike other MMOs, I feel like even the lesser achievements will be more gratifying than what we've become accustomed to.

    Pantheon is designed for the adventure or "end game" to begin at level 1. That means play that is rewarding from the start and much of what you achieve will carry on with you as both items and abilities throughout your character's life. Gaining experience and hitting max level will not be the end all be all in Pantheon.


  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    Dullahan said:
    Dullahan said:
    Xodic said:
    I agree with Wiz on this one. I like the nod to the classic but to game in the 21st century I expect to have 21st conventions. If this game sits squarely in the 20th century then I may just pass.

    Avoiding modern conventions is why Pantheon even has a fan base. What conventions are you referring to exactly? Other than cash shops, quest hubs and solo game-play.
    I disagree that avoiding modern conventions is why it has a fan base. I believe that is one of the reasons. Not the only one.
    Brad McQ also has a following all on his own and mainly for creating worlds that feel organic and immersive and not just set pieces.
    PvP has no place in a game like this and I feel that is a bad move on the developers part.
    Target rings are last gen and can stay there in my opinion.
    Modern conventions could include location based damage. Attack the arm the arm becomes unusable,for example. 
    Could include physics in the game and elemental actions like Project Gorgon uses.
    Could include Spellcrafting instead of just 'DING' and get the next 'rung on the ladder' spells and abilities.
    A.I. that is dynamic and eliminate the pattern walkers that most games have.
    Weather that affects gameplay like fire spells not working in the rain. Frost spells getting a proc when in snow areas.
    This is almost 2017 and we are looking forward to games that play like they were made 15 to 20 years ago? Sad state for the genre indeed. 
    First, the game isn't designed for PvP, and neither was EQ, but EQ PvP was amazing for that very reason. It gave us something worth fighting for: the progression. That's better than any other PvP title I've ever played.

    There are plenty of new things that Pantheon has or will offer. What we see in these streams combat wise (and really everything else) is very pre-alpha. We're talking about low level classes without all of their abilities. We're also looking at very basic mobs without the NPC dispositions or "AI".

    These are the things that will make combat much more interesting and engaging. In these streams so far, classes have had very limited ability pools and only really needed basic CC, healing and damage abilities. Once mobs become harder and players are given more offensive and defensive decisions to make, that will seriously change the way things work and the feel of combat.

    The game is (or will be) quite unique. The comparisons you made were pretty off in most cases. You should really watch the latest stream all the way through, because it sounds like you might have missed it.
    I did watch them and I actually supported the game financially, yet I am not going to fawn over a game and it's potential until it is in release state. For now I am going to objectively critique what is shown to me. I have zero agenda and hope it is a success. As I see more and more of it I am beginning to wonder if it will be the type of game that I really want to play at this stage of my life. The game seems to mirror the time sinks of the past generations of classic MMORPGs and those are not the type of games I am able, nor willing, to play anymore.
    Only if you feel it necessary to be in the best guild, lead in content progression, and have a top geared character. If those aren't your intentions, I think there will be a lot to enjoy as a casual player. I actually found playing EQ sporadically in the early years really fun at times, because it meant going off in random directions and meeting new players every session. Whereas, when you play competitively and compulsively, you basically become locked in to a pre-made group or guild and more rigidly following a plan for maximum efficiency.

    Every year that goes by it seems like I have less time to play than the one before. Yet I still intend to carve out time for Pantheon because, unlike other MMOs, I feel like even the lesser achievements will be more gratifying than what we've become accustomed to.

    Pantheon is designed for the adventure or "end game" to begin at level 1. That means play that is rewarding from the start and much of what you achieve will carry on with you as both items and abilities throughout your character's life. Gaining experience and hitting max level will not be the end all be all in Pantheon.
    Yeah I get that but as an original Asheron's Call player I found it difficult to journey with my friends if I did not devote the time. During that stage of my life I did have the time. It is not a very solo-friendly game. It is meant to be a group game. As is Pantheon. That is a selling point for the game I get that but for me it is not one. If that was the case I would just resub to Asheron's Call.

    I am not slamming Pantheon. I think what they have will appeal to many a gamer. I am just still on the fence as to whether or not I am one of them. I am looking for something a bit more forward thinking in my next MMO. From what I know of a couple under NDA still, I am getting a clearer picture of what the MMORPG of tomorrow will look like.

     I will continue to watch it progress and when the time comes I will make the decision to play it or by then I will have focused my time on one of the three I am looking at that is very progressive and moves the genre forward in a way I want to be a part of. Time and development will tell if Pantheon is on that short list.  

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    svann said:
    ste2000 said:
    svann said:
    Didnt like the shiny rock so much.  Hopefully its just unfinished textures or there is a lore reason why this dungeon is so shiny.  And they need to increase falling damage.
    If you mean the ceiling rock in the vertical dungeon I think they are meant to be shiny since they are made of ice (not snow)
    No I meant the ground.
    The dungeon was mostly ice or rocks covered in snow and ice. It's a higher tier frigid climate, though all of the effects were not active during the demo. Post launch, without the necessary equipment and preparation, the environment alone would seriously impair your character, if not kill you.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    The game seems to mirror the time sinks of the past generations of classic MMORPGs and those are not the type of games I am able, nor willing, to play anymore.
    I see that as a positive thing.
    There are around 1000 other MMOs where you can level cap in 2 weeks, for then getting bored and moving on to the next one, rinse and repeat.
    Personally I am bored with that.

    I want a MMO that I can play for years and I can play at my own pace, and with Pantheon you can.
    The irony here is that a game like Pantheon which has huge time sinks mechanics is the only game that  allows you to play it at your own pace.
    In Pantheon there is no pressure in leveling fast because you won't be able to (leveling is really slow), so you will be able to sit back, relax and play the game at your own pace.

    Generally in many casual games what happens is that when you see your XP bar at 60-70% you force yourself to play extra hours so you can reach the next level, and that happens really often.
    I find this really stressing, because it becomes a race to hit level cap as fast as you can resulting in long binge gaming sessions which you didn't actually planned.

    I guarantee that in Pantheon you will even forget the XP bar is there, you will start enjoying playing the game the way it's supposed to be played, rather than being stressed by the XP bar and binge gaming for long hours hoping to reach level cap as fast as possible.


  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    ste2000 said:
    The game seems to mirror the time sinks of the past generations of classic MMORPGs and those are not the type of games I am able, nor willing, to play anymore.
    I see that as a positive thing.
    There are around 1000 other MMOs where you can level cap in 2 weeks, for then getting bored and moving on to the next one, rinse and repeat.
    Personally I am bored with that.

    I want a MMO that I can play for years and I can play at my own pace, and with Pantheon you can.
    The irony here is that a game like Pantheon which has huge time sinks mechanics is the only game that  allows you to play it at your own pace.
    In Pantheon there is no pressure in leveling fast because you won't be able to (leveling is really slow), so you will be able to sit back, relax and play the game at your own pace.

    Generally in many casual games what happens is that when you see your XP bar at 60-70% you force yourself to play extra hours so you can reach the next level, and that happens really often.
    I find this really stressing, because it becomes a race to hit level cap as fast as you can resulting in long binge gaming sessions which you didn't actually planned.

    I guarantee that in Pantheon you will even forget the XP bar is there, you will start enjoying playing the game the way it's supposed to be played, rather than being stressed by the XP bar and binge gaming for long hours hoping to reach level cap as fast as possible.


    Yeah the same as Asheron's Call which is still playable. As is DAoC and Everquest.
    Those games are still around and never went anywhere.
    Time sink MMOs are still around.
    Pantheon will just fit nicely next to those that are already and have been out. 

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited December 2016

    Yeah the same as Asheron's Call which is still playable. As is DAoC and Everquest.
    Those games are still around and never went anywhere.
    Time sink MMOs are still around.
    Pantheon will just fit nicely next to those that are already and have been out. 
    Pantheon will hardly compare to Asheron's Call or EQ in it's current or even classic state. Pantheon has a complete arsenal of "forward thinking" mechanics that aren't in any current or future MMOs. They are also overhauling many of the retro systems, they just aren't removing the need for a greater time devotion; which is largely responsible and entirely inter-connected with the sense of accomplishment that an MMO provides.

    The time factor which yields a greater sense of achievement will never be replaced entirely by player skill or dexterity, or even by a wider variety of item colors, nor will pure skill-based rewards lead to player retention now or in the near future.
    Post edited by Dullahan on


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited December 2016
    ste2000 said:


    Yeah the same as Asheron's Call which is still playable. As is DAoC and Everquest.
    Those games are still around and never went anywhere.
    Time sink MMOs are still around.
    Pantheon will just fit nicely next to those that are already and have been out. 
    I am surprised that someone with the game experience such as yourself comes up with this weak argument.
    Pantheon won't sit nicely along those game, as you claim, it will shut them up, because it's gonna be a modern version of those games, not a photo copy.
    That's the point of Pantheon, it is not the same game, it is a modern version of those.

    I am not playing Everquest because it's an old game with old graphics, old UI, old mechanics and it lost its way long time ago.
    Do you realize how ridiculous it is that people are forced to play a 13 year old game because there is nothing new out there for them?

    The reason why people think that "time sink" MMOs are not popular is because developers stopped making them in 2004 (Vanilla WoW being the last one), so even if potentially there are many people who might like this kind of games and have lots of time in their hand,  reality is that very few of them (me included) are willing to put up with a game that is 13 years old.

    There are plenty of categories that have plenty of time to kill, like teenagers, students, and single people.
    The notion that today no one has the time to play this kind of game is ludicrous.
    Not all gamers are married with kids or work 16 hours a day, in fact the opposite is true.


  • dcutbi001dcutbi001 Member UncommonPosts: 46
    edited December 2016
    Wait, are we trying to lump all the slower more meaningful MMO's of yesteryear into a category and slap a "time sink" label on it? To be fair, we could label almost any MMO a "time sink". Even WoW, with its rush to cap, and then run dungeons until you're geared, is a time sink. Or, instead of "time sink" are you talking about the slower paced games that take you on a real journey, but take much longer to hit max? 

    On one hand you're saying you're not sure Pantheon will be for you because it's a group based game, and on the other hand you're saying you don't think you're into it because it'll be a time sink. I don't know you Blue, but it feels like you're looking for a reason that you won't like Pantheon, which is odd based on the fact that you already helped fund it. If you don't think it's for you, then that's okay, but the reasoning still seems like it doesn't totally add up for me. 

    Are you sure you're just not more into action combat, quest hubs, fast leveling, soloing, or something along those lines? If it's something along one of those paths, then it makes sense that a game like Pantheon may not be for you.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    ste2000 said:
    ste2000 said:


    Yeah the same as Asheron's Call which is still playable. As is DAoC and Everquest.
    Those games are still around and never went anywhere.
    Time sink MMOs are still around.
    Pantheon will just fit nicely next to those that are already and have been out. 
    I am surprised that someone with the game experience such as yourself comes up with this weak argument.
    Pantheon won't sit nicely along those game, as you claim, it will shut them up, because it's gonna be a modern version of those games, not a photo copy.
    That's the point of Pantheon, it is not the same game, it is a modern version of those.

    I am not playing Everquest because it's an old game with old graphics, old UI, old mechanics and it lost its way long time ago.
    Do you realize how ridiculous it is that people are forced to play a 13 year old game because there is nothing new out there for them?

    The reason why people think that "time sink" MMOs are not popular is because developers stopped making them in 2004 (Vanilla WoW being the last one), so even if potentially there are many people who might like this kind of games and have lots of time in their hand,  reality is that very few of them (me included) are willing to put up with a game that is 13 years old.

    There are plenty of categories that have plenty of time to kill, like teenagers, students, and single people.
    The notion that today no one has the time to play this kind of game is ludicrous.
    Not all gamers are married with kids or work 16 hours a day, in fact the opposite is true.


    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.

     

    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

     

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again.

    I completely agree with these statements made by one of the main forces in sub-based MMORPGs in the world. Pantheon is not going to be the savior for the MMORPG genre anymore than FFXIV is.
    What is considered forward thinking and 'new' in Pantheon has been done before and that is fine.
    Since I work along side some of the industries more talented people I have caught glimpses of what we can expect in the future for the genre and trust me, Pantheon is nowhere near their level of innovation. After experiencing some of what the future has to offer, these 'classic' styled games just simply pale in comparison and it is almost like the MMORPG genre is about to be turned on it's head and reborn anew. It may not be 10 to 15 years before they are big again as Yoshi-P predicts because in the meantime there are some amazing things in the works that are going to blow fan's minds and challenge everyone to step up their game to match them. 



    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,790
    edited December 2016
    dcutbi001 said:
    Wait, are we trying to lump all the slower more meaningful MMO's of yesteryear into a category and slap a "time sink" label on it? To be fair, we could label almost any MMO a "time sink". Even WoW, with its rush to cap, and then run dungeons until you're geared, is a time sink. Or, instead of "time sink" are you talking about the slower paced games that take you on a real journey, but take much longer to hit max? 

    On one hand you're saying you're not sure Pantheon will be for you because it's a group based game, and on the other hand you're saying you don't think you're into it because it'll be a time sink. I don't know you Blue, but it feels like you're looking for a reason that you won't like Pantheon, which is odd based on the fact that you already helped fund it. If you don't think it's for you, then that's okay, but the reasoning still seems like it doesn't totally add up for me. 

    Are you sure you just not more into action combat, or quest hubs, or something along those lines? If it's something like along that path then that makes sense when compared to a game like Pantheon.
    Being a slower MMO does not attach more meaning to it. Meaningful is a relative term.
    I'm talking about if I want to play a single player game I play a single player game. If I play a group game I prefer a Co-Op experience and not one I have to stand around waiting for 2 hours because we do not have a healer before I can actually 'play the game'
    I played EQ2 for over a decade and Asheron's Call and Lineage before that. Running heritage quests in EQ2 was something that broke the epic journey into smaller pieces to obtain a legendary item. I ran duo with most of it and guild grouped the Dungeon parts. If I am able to do that in Pantheon then I am fine with that. I already stated I am hoping the game is successful and I believe it will have a core audience but I also know what is coming along in the works (behind closed doors and NDAs) they make the classic style of play pale in comparison.
    Working in the industry gives you access and perspective. I am just keeping my perspective in check. How many times have fans ferociously defended a prerelease game only to be let down once they get their hands on it?  Or realize once released it is not the be all end all of the genre and is just a competent game? More times than not. So until then I will approach all games with cautious optimism and tempered excitement.   

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • dcutbi001dcutbi001 Member UncommonPosts: 46
    edited December 2016
    I played EQ2 for over a decade and Asheron's Call and Lineage before that. Running heritage quests in EQ2 was something that broke the epic journey into smaller pieces to obtain a legendary item. I ran duo with most of it and guild grouped the Dungeon parts. If I am able to do that in Pantheon then I am fine with that. I already stated I am hoping the game is successful and I believe it will have a core audience but I also know what is coming along in the works (behind closed doors and NDAs) they make the classic style of play pale in comparison.
    You won't really get an argument from me in relation to this point. I agree everything in the game should not need a full 6 man group. However, I also don't think that will be the case. I expect the most rewarding things in the game to come from grouping, but I'm with you on supporting content for duo and trio's being able to get things accomplished for personal quests, etc... 

    They did say in yesterday's stream that they have been talking about adding personal player content on some level or another for your characters personal quest (para-phrasing). So we'll have to wait and see if anything ever comes of that. I kind of took that to mean you could accomplish parts of your epic solo if need be, or by design, and then there would be parts where you would need a larger groups assistance. 

    Edit: here is a link to where they discussed the solo stuff in the stream. (Starts at 1:03:34)
    (Starts at 1:03:34)
  • AraduneAradune Sigil Games CEOMember RarePosts: 294
    I don't believe it is a weak argument because people began to leave those types of games behind. This is not because they are the best examples of the MMO genre it is because the genre evolved as did those who play them. You must realize that as Yoshi-P, the producer of FFXIV has said:
    With all due respect to Yoshi-P, the original producer & lead designer of EverQuest disagrees.  Pretty sure Todd Coleman (Crowfall) and Richard Garriott (SotA) do too.  Even Raph Koster (UO, SW:G), while not full time on an MMO, is helping out on Crowfall....

    • MMORPGs nowadays can’t be successful unless they’re large-scale games.
    Actually it's the large scale, massively expensive online games (MEOGs?) that have tried to appeal to everyone that have struggled, had retention issues, had to switch to F2P and cash-shops to monetize casual gamers before they bail on the game, etc.  Ask Rob Pardo why they gave up on Titan...  Sure, trying to make a 'WoW killer' is probably folly, but also entirely unnecessary.
    • Some companies want to make MMORPGs but they can’t afford it, and the ones that are trying to make MMORPGs are being told by investors to just make a game of a different genre.

    Funding is hard to come by regardless of genre.... even companies devoted to virtual reality are only getting seed funding to 'experiment'.  Big publishers are risk adverse right now (seems to run in cycles), but there are other ways to fund games.

    • We’re currently in a state where even if you want to make an MMORPG, you really can’t.

     But we and others ARE.

    • Yoshi-P’s personal opinion is that MMORPGs aren’t dead but they’re just taking a break.

     He may be taking a break but I'm not.

    • He feels that it’ll be another 10~15 years until they become big again
    What magical event is going to occur in 10 or 15 years that will suddenly make them 'big' again?  Perhaps he is frustrated that he can't (or won't) make the MMO of his dreams in the near future, or maybe he needs a break, but I'm living my dream :)

    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Brad McQuaid
    CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
    www.pantheonmmo.com
    --------------------------------------------------------------

  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    edited December 2016
    I must have a different understanding of the word "incredible".

    That said, it looks good for a game from the late 90s.

    For a game from 2016 - it looks incredibly bad, visually speaking.

    That said, the gameplay looks like a nice enough throwback to ancient times. I'm sure there'll be a few thousand players all over this at release. Potentially up to 50K or something as a stable playerbase.

    I hope that's enough to sustain it.

    I might even try it out myself for a little while. I used to enjoy Vanguard here and there.

    Unfortunately, I always stopped playing because I realised that grinding for the sake of grinding and imagining my own content just isn't in me anymore.

    Never really was. I lasted a week with EQ and two weeks with DAoC. UO did sustain me for a few months, though.

    I didn't start playing MMOs seriously until I got my GF playing WoW. WoW introduced the concept of interesting content in MMOs, and I tend to prefer that kind of experience - over the barren hollow halls or gigantic empty landscapes full of red grindy mobs.

    I like tons of truly unique dungeons (read: not just empty halls with texture variations) and the expectation of something genuinely new around the corner, instead of yet another goblin with a slightly higher HP pool - that requires 2 minutes of cooperative semi-turnbased combat to defeat for a miniscule about of XP.

    To each his own, and all that.
    Post edited by DKLond on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    The only thing incredibly bad is your trolling skills. Step your game up, son.


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,207
    Dullahan said:
    The only thing incredibly bad is your trolling skills. Step your game up, son.
    Ah, the good old disagree = troll point of view.

    Now, that's some innovative game right there :)
  • BraindomeBraindome Member UncommonPosts: 959
    Dullahan said:
    The only thing incredibly bad is your trolling skills. Step your game up, son.
    There will always unfortunately be a passionately vocal few out to destroy this genre "as well as other mainstays in life", always has been always will be "especially in the MMORPG genre", funny thing is though they never have the "answer" and their solutions are ALWAYS worse than the original ideas, ludicrous and ruin all creativity.
     
    Imho these people just shouldn't play MMORPG'S, it's the wrong genre for them and they don't understand the core concepts. You either get it or you don't and man some just don't and can't move on, please for everyones sake, move on.
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