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The Simple Reason a 15$ Subscription Doesn't Work Anymore

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  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,240
    Torval said:
    kjempff said:
    Pay per hour was tried. That was among the very first models.
    Interesting, which game(s) had pay per hour and when ?
    Prodigy Net and Sierra Online to name a couple of the biggest outside of AoL. They were specifically entertainment services not ISPs like AoL or Earthlink. You had to dial in and once connected you could play their games. Pay was by the hour. Neverwinter Nights was also pay by the hour. I remember quite a bit of paywall in the early Internet where businesses were concerned.
    I used to play several games on Prodigy when I was a wee kid.  My parents used to get mad about the bills though.  Oh man, the memories playing Mad Maze.

    You pretty much started paying as soon as you finished with this screen:


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,669
    H0urg1ass said:
    Torval said:
    kjempff said:
    Pay per hour was tried. That was among the very first models.
    Interesting, which game(s) had pay per hour and when ?
    Prodigy Net and Sierra Online to name a couple of the biggest outside of AoL. They were specifically entertainment services not ISPs like AoL or Earthlink. You had to dial in and once connected you could play their games. Pay was by the hour. Neverwinter Nights was also pay by the hour. I remember quite a bit of paywall in the early Internet where businesses were concerned.
    I used to play several games on Prodigy when I was a wee kid.  My parents used to get mad about the bills though.  Oh man, the memories playing Mad Maze.

    You pretty much started paying as soon as you finished with this screen:


    That screenshot is awesome. Yep, time started ticking the moment you hit enter after you hit the login info. It was spendy. Sierra Online was pretty cool because they tried to create a virtual world for you to walk around when selecting activities. In a world and time where a lot of online and computer interaction was text based it was pretty forward thinking.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

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  • DreadToothDreadTooth Member UncommonPosts: 150
    Forgrimm said:
    I'd gladly pay $21 a month to have access to everything and not be nickel-and-dimed in a cash shop. Cash shops weren't introduced because game devs didn't think people would pay a higher monthly sub cost though, they were introduced because for the majority of games, a cash shop is more profitable for the company, even more so than it would be for them to offer an increased monthly sub rate.
    What % of players do you think pay $252 a year to cash shops to play MMOs? Its well under 5% Im sure.... I always saw the monthly as a total waste of money...The day it went away was a good day.....I handed over hundreds of dollars to WoW and EQ1 and felt totally ripped off.

    It may very well be a small amount, but it has been reported fairly regularly that free games with in game purchase options earn significantly more money than subscription games.

    Also, have you gone through the comments on mobile apps with in game purchases? Go read them after a big update is pushed for the app, you will hear people, completely calm like it's no big deal, talking about how they put in $500 every month or every pay check or every week and how the bugs the update caused are just the worst thing ever, yeah never mind how much I spend but your update really grrrr made me angry! LOL.

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    To answer Theocritus's question I believe for F2P games that rely purely on cash shop revenues only about 2% of players pay in anything at all, and a small portion of those make up the vast majority of the revenue.

    That doesn't seem to apply to every F2P though because I'd say the vast majority of long-term players opt to pay a subscription in most freemium titles.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,042
    My problem with P2P was it was just an extra fee to play the game.....At least with cash shops you get something for that money......Mounts, XP potions, gear, whatever
  • Blaze_RockerBlaze_Rocker Member UncommonPosts: 335
    edited December 2016

    If paying $13.99 - $15.00 keeps out the gold/money sellers and keeps total noobs from f***ing s*** up in the higher tiers then I'd gladly pay for as long as I'm able. Fifteen bucks a month isn't all that bad when you think about it. The average person probably spends that much or more in one month either on soda or coffee. If you can spend that much on non-essential items then you should be able to afford to pay to play.

    (To each 'is own though.)

    When it's all boiled down though the real issue is with the security of your payment. You want to know that your credit card information is secure and that the system handling transactions doesn't go haywire and continuously charge your card over and over again to an overdraft state.

    I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,544
    edited December 2016
    It doesn't keep the gold sellers out or the noobs.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    The memories. Which go to show that there is another way of looking at the cost of todays sub.

    OP premise: infaltion has eroded the cost of a sub so should it be more?

    However the posts have pointed out how subs used to be very, very expensive declining to being simply expensive and subsequently replaced - in some but not all cases - by a monthly sub. (Not the case with FFXIV / DQ for example).

    So the premise could be: shouldn't the cost of a sub have fallen further? To be fair some games did take this path e.g. Rift. 
  • Blaze_RockerBlaze_Rocker Member UncommonPosts: 335
    It doesn't keep the gold sellers out or the noobs.

    It can restrict them at the least and if it can do that then I'll take it.

    I've got a feevah, and the only prescription... is more cowbell.

  • RhinotonesRhinotones Member UncommonPosts: 250
    When they introduced the WoW token, that effectively ceased my monthly sub payments.

    I'd continue to pay if tokens didn't exist and I would pay more if sub costs increased as I currently enjoy the game.

    Funny thing is, I can't even give Blizz my money anymore even though I'd be happy to.

    image
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    At the end of the day $15 doesn't cover the cost of maintaining a server - that takes a much bigger sum.

    The key is having enough players (consumers). Not enough and it doesn't matter whether the sub is $10 or $15 or $25. If a game has lots it becomes "highly profitable".

    Nor does it follow that charging more means more revenue. In general a higher cost will mean fewer buyers. (Different for very cheap and very expensive) so a higher price might result in less money - and the reverse is true.

    But what works for one game won't necessarily work for another. Which brings us back to things like quality and the amount of content available. And the concept of value.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore.  Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003?  If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,544
    edited December 2016
    The model used to pay for  my game has  never factored into my enjoyment. I enjoyed some  games then. I enjoy some  now. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,629
    The real problem with subs these days is (simplified and generalized) that the games are not made for long term commitment, and therefore the sub model is not the best choice for those games. Those few games that have long term appeal (you know which) actually (for the most part) have some sort of sub model going (premium membership and other names).
    Now, you can always find a lone example to use as argument against any opinion or observation, but generally speaking...
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,669
    My problem with P2P was it was just an extra fee to play the game.....At least with cash shops you get something for that money......Mounts, XP potions, gear, whatever
    Also in F2P or B2P games with cash shops the subscription offers something for the money more than just access to the servers.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

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  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,745
    It's a dual edged sword.  I miss those times of the past because the game "quality" made up for the fact that there was only maybe 1-2 games released for a platform in a month.  EQ was designed to be a multi-year game.  Now we're at AAA games that barely have 5 hrs of story and they charge 60 bucks and wonder why they get backlash.  So then people go with F2P games.  Because they're disposible.  Yes, there are whales but the majority of us have lost our ability to focus on just one game at a time.  At any time I've got 5 game systems with a game on them that I'm playing.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    waynejr2 said:
    So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore.  Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003?  If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
    The point is that 15$ a month isn't what was in 2001-2003.  If you're paying 15$ for a game in 2016 it's not going to produce something of the same quality as it could back then because that money is worth less.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Eldurian said:
    waynejr2 said:
    So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore.  Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003?  If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
    The point is that 15$ a month isn't what was in 2001-2003.  If you're paying 15$ for a game in 2016 it's not going to produce something of the same quality as it could back then because that money is worth less.

    You can't say what my point was.  derp.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    waynejr2 said:
    So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore.  Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003?  If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
    I'm happy with ESO, yet not happier with it than I was in SWG. I also wouldn't exactly say the sub doesn't work, it's just doesn't work continually for a lot of games. It has done well though for WOW, FFXIV, as well as EVE. 

    It works for ESO, just not on the regular, If I'm seriously doing PVE content I'll sub for the extra content, if I'm mostly PVPIng I won't sub. That's the same way I played TOR more or less as well. SUB when doing content, unsub when just dabbling around in the game. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,544
    He isn't. That was his point.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,840
    waynejr2 said:
    So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore.  Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003?  If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
    I'm happy because I have a larger pick of games to play.  Back then if I wanted to play a popular MMO, subbing was my only option.  I now have two or three MMO's I play regularly, a lot I come back to once or twice a year to see what's new, and a lot I can turn down because the market is so flooded I can afford to be really picky.

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  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    edited December 2016
    The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.

    Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).

    Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.


    So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....


    (Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)



  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    My problem with P2P was it was just an extra fee to play the game.....At least with cash shops you get something for that money......Mounts, XP potions, gear, whatever
    Well now most games that have subs and cash shop give you currency for the shops when you sub.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Burntvet said:
    The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.

    Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).

    Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.


    So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....


    (Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)




    One thing you're not taking into consideration is the bureaoucracy. These types of initiatives are ALWAYS interesting, but rarely practical and even less reproducible. Some of the most efficient teams in history are smaller teams. I'm going to get the product here wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me, but one of the most productive teams in history was the Lotus 123 team and it was like 10 people. The H1Z1 team was like 10 people. Every single skunkworks program ever created was a smaller team. 

    Effectively, the number of employees on a project provides diminishing returns on a non-linear scale. There are many factors that contribute to this, but I won't bore you with that. However, to meet schedules, they usually have to increase their resources so the project costs a fuck-ton more but releases marginally sooner than it would have with a smaller team. It's messed up. 

    Secondly, SWGEMU has never even seen 6k players, let alone 10k. If they DID happen to have 10k players I'm sure they could support their efforts by charging $15 a month. However, I'm sure that violates some sort of agreement with DBG that allows them to operate and I'd be surprised if they could actually be profitable on donations alone. Kudos to you, though, for tossing some money in their hat. I think it's a pretty awesome project and they should get some love.  

    Crazkanuk

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Burntvet said:
    The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.

    Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).

    Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.


    So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....


    (Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)



    So a few things I'd like to ask about that.

    1. Does SWGEMU actually update content at the rate of a true MMO. You know a few major patches a year with one major expansion where they release new features and content, occasional graphics updates to keep things current etc. Something comparable to WoW, EVE, ArcheAge, Runescape etc.

    2. Is SWGEMU run for profit or do they put everything they make back into the game, essentially making it a charity?

    And if you want to say two is about "greed". The reason good MMOs are made by for profit companies is those companies can use their profits to do things like... launch an MMO with all the content needed for it to be fun without panhandling for funds on Kickstarter first.
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