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The Simple Reason a 15$ Subscription Doesn't Work Anymore

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  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    Distopia said:
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

    There they are... the typical assumptions, what may I ask sources do you believe I get my "news" from? I certainly don't prescribe to punditry, which is all most news is today, on both sides... 
    agreed both sides are bad to a point...I have my guesses where you get some of your info...but like we both have said this isn't the correct forum for this chat...I just wanted to pass along some facts you obviously were not up to speed on.  

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited December 2016
    Not going to get involved in a political debate on forums where it's a clear rules violation so I'll just say this:

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,240
    I like to judge this in comparison to my other hobbies.

    One of my other hobbies is tabletop wargaming.  I play Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, X-wing Miniatures a little Flames of War and some other assorted games.  This hobby far outpaces the amount I've spent on video gaming.  For example, by pure math I have spent about $4,400 USD on EVE Online subscription fees since I started playing in 2005.  In that same 11 year period of time I have spent a good $7,000-$10,000 on Tabletop Wargaming.  Starting a new 2000 point army will cost anywhere from $500-$900 USD and I have purchased 13 different Warhammer Fantasy/40k armies.  Not to mention the several thousand I've spent on non-Games Workshop miniatures.

    Another hobby of mine is modding my 370z.  I installed two parts last year, A Stillen Gen 3 Cold Air Intake System which cost me $500 USD + $100 shipping and a 34 Row Oil Cooler Radiator that cost me $620 USD + $50 shipping.  This year I will be upgrading my exhaust, rear spoiler and installing sway bars for another $2k USD total.

    Another hobby is collecting and shooting firearms.  Last year I bought a Walther PPQ M2 for $600, a Springfield Arms XDS 9mm for $430, and a Maverick 88 Shotgun for $200.  Plus ammo, cases, extra magazines, IWB Holsters, OWB Holsters, range fees for shooting.... ect.

    So essentially, playing MMORPG's is one of the cheapest hobbies that I have.  In fact, if I paid $20 a month for EVE or another really good game, then that still wouldn't be too much for the amount of time I spend in them.  Especially considering that I only play 40k on the weekends, only take my 370z to the race track 2-3 times a year and only go to the shooting range once every 1-2 months.  I'm getting far more bang for my buck gaming, than shooting.  
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,098
    Shaigh said:
    There is no reason why mmorpg should have a subscription.

    The old argument was network costs but that hasn't been true for a very long time.
    That's not really true. There's still a cost for players to connect and there's still a cost for servers.



  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    What do you think you're getting by paying a subscription fee that you wouldn't otherwise get? -It's not quality so what is it?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,635
    Who exactly is calling for "15 USD" subs?

    Quite a significant portion of people attending this forum is asking for subscription based games. I have not seen many of them asking for games that charge 15 USD / month for that subs.

    I would gladly pay 100 bucks a month for a decent MMORPG.


  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    H0urg1ass said:
    I like to judge this in comparison to my other hobbies.

    One of my other hobbies is tabletop wargaming.  I play Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, X-wing Miniatures a little Flames of War and some other assorted games.  This hobby far outpaces the amount I've spent on video gaming.  For example, by pure math I have spent about $4,400 USD on EVE Online subscription fees since I started playing in 2005.  In that same 11 year period of time I have spent a good $7,000-$10,000 on Tabletop Wargaming.  Starting a new 2000 point army will cost anywhere from $500-$900 USD and I have purchased 13 different Warhammer Fantasy/40k armies.  Not to mention the several thousand I've spent on non-Games Workshop miniatures.

    Another hobby of mine is modding my 370z.  I installed two parts last year, A Stillen Gen 3 Cold Air Intake System which cost me $500 USD + $100 shipping and a 34 Row Oil Cooler Radiator that cost me $620 USD + $50 shipping.  This year I will be upgrading my exhaust, rear spoiler and installing sway bars for another $2k USD total.

    Another hobby is collecting and shooting firearms.  Last year I bought a Walther PPQ M2 for $600, a Springfield Arms XDS 9mm for $430, and a Maverick 88 Shotgun for $200.  Plus ammo, cases, extra magazines, IWB Holsters, OWB Holsters, range fees for shooting.... ect.

    So essentially, playing MMORPG's is one of the cheapest hobbies that I have.  In fact, if I paid $20 a month for EVE or another really good game, then that still wouldn't be too much for the amount of time I spend in them.  Especially considering that I only play 40k on the weekends, only take my 370z to the race track 2-3 times a year and only go to the shooting range once every 1-2 months.  I'm getting far more bang for my buck gaming, than shooting.  
    Yes but to be fair, all those other hobbies are real life tangible goods that you truly own, may appreciate in value, and can be resold. Whereas MMOs are pointless digital pixels that you in reality merely rent. Once the game dies there goes all your precious pixels.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    I will gladly pay a sub for old games like Eve, EQ, and such. What I wont do is pay that sub for new games that have much less content and take a month to reach max everything.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

    There they are... the typical assumptions, what may I ask sources do you believe I get my "news" from? I certainly don't prescribe to punditry, which is all most news is today, on both sides... 
    agreed both sides are bad to a point...I have my guesses where you get some of your info...but like we both have said this isn't the correct forum for this chat...I just wanted to pass along some facts you obviously were not up to speed on.  

    No I'm well aware of that tidbit of information. But saving some jobs is not the same as increasing the Middle classes pay. Which is what I was talking about. Those jobs staying could actually have the reverse effect (as profit is the key driving force for those companies, staying could drive their wages down in the name of profits).

    Which can slightly put us back on topic. As it's directly related to the way in which people spend. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,240
    H0urg1ass said:
    I like to judge this in comparison to my other hobbies.

    One of my other hobbies is tabletop wargaming.  I play Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, X-wing Miniatures a little Flames of War and some other assorted games.  This hobby far outpaces the amount I've spent on video gaming.  For example, by pure math I have spent about $4,400 USD on EVE Online subscription fees since I started playing in 2005.  In that same 11 year period of time I have spent a good $7,000-$10,000 on Tabletop Wargaming.  Starting a new 2000 point army will cost anywhere from $500-$900 USD and I have purchased 13 different Warhammer Fantasy/40k armies.  Not to mention the several thousand I've spent on non-Games Workshop miniatures.

    Another hobby of mine is modding my 370z.  I installed two parts last year, A Stillen Gen 3 Cold Air Intake System which cost me $500 USD + $100 shipping and a 34 Row Oil Cooler Radiator that cost me $620 USD + $50 shipping.  This year I will be upgrading my exhaust, rear spoiler and installing sway bars for another $2k USD total.

    Another hobby is collecting and shooting firearms.  Last year I bought a Walther PPQ M2 for $600, a Springfield Arms XDS 9mm for $430, and a Maverick 88 Shotgun for $200.  Plus ammo, cases, extra magazines, IWB Holsters, OWB Holsters, range fees for shooting.... ect.

    So essentially, playing MMORPG's is one of the cheapest hobbies that I have.  In fact, if I paid $20 a month for EVE or another really good game, then that still wouldn't be too much for the amount of time I spend in them.  Especially considering that I only play 40k on the weekends, only take my 370z to the race track 2-3 times a year and only go to the shooting range once every 1-2 months.  I'm getting far more bang for my buck gaming, than shooting.  
    Yes but to be fair, all those other hobbies are real life tangible goods that you truly own, may appreciate in value, and can be resold. Whereas MMOs are pointless digital pixels that you in reality merely rent. Once the game dies there goes all your precious pixels.
    That's true, but it's part of the Faustian bargain I agreed to when I started playing them.  I'm fine with losing pixel dollars, just like I'm fine watching a movie once and never seeing it again after spending $30 to take me and the wife out to the movies for the evening.

    Besides, every hobby I mentioned depreciates in value the moment I buy it except for my firearms.  Just try selling an opened box of Imperial Gaurdsmen on eBay for the original $29 box price in the store, or a used Cold Air Intake for full price; it ain't gonna happen.
  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    edited December 2016
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

    There they are... the typical assumptions, what may I ask sources do you believe I get my "news" from? I certainly don't prescribe to punditry, which is all most news is today, on both sides... 
    agreed both sides are bad to a point...I have my guesses where you get some of your info...but like we both have said this isn't the correct forum for this chat...I just wanted to pass along some facts you obviously were not up to speed on.  

    No I'm well aware of that tidbit of information. But saving some jobs is not the same as increasing the Middle classes pay. Which is what I was talking about. Those jobs staying could actually have the reverse effect (as profit is the key driving force for those companies, staying could drive their wages down in the name of profits).

    Which can slightly put us back on topic. As it's directly related to the way in which people spend. 




    Less taxation and regulation on Business will go towards the bottom line and give businesses the ability to pay more and allow consumers to spend more on mmorpgs. 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,840
    Can't think of any game I would pay a sub for more than a month or two.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,578
    edited December 2016
    MMORPG's, from the late 90's to now, have never justified the subscription from a quality perspective when compared to other forms of online gaming.

    If I'm paying around £10 a month I'd expect a full free expansion to be released every 3 months (£30). If I'm not getting that, I'm wasting my money on an experience I can find somewhere else for free.

    image
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    Eldurian said:
    I don't know the exact date that 15$ subs became a thing. I believe it was around 2000. It definitely was by 2003. Check this out though:

    Inflation Calculator

    <snip>

    2004

    NCSoft when they launched CoH (and Lineage?) increased the cost in return for "quarterly content updates". (Which they delivered on up until they went f2p).

    Prior to that it had been $10 which covered the service only, no content updates was the norm with e.g. EQ1 releasing a $30 ish expansion every 6 months. AC's monthly story patch was an attempt to capitalise on an increasing view that the sub was excessive. Bottomline was that in 1999 servers, software, ISPs etc. were very expensive and so the concept of a sub was "accepted". A few years later after huge drops in price but no change in the sub there was much more angst.

    Blizzard went with the $15 and - at least initially - released regular content: 12 patches in 2 years and then BC. (How did they manage to do both Oli? A bigger team Stan, a bigger team.)

    And the likes of Mythic increased their price with a suggestion of "included content". 
  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    edited December 2016
    I would also pay $20 per month for a game that is worth it to me.
    Looking around however, i only see games that i wouldn't pay more than 9,99/month for.

    To me it is not about the money in first place or whatever any other entertainment costs in comparison, but a matter of quality.
    People always say that going out for dinner or watching a movie costs you 25+ for say two hours and a $15 sub is nothing compared to that.
    But then i pick my restaurants and companionship carefully, as well as the movies i watch in a cinema, so these 2 hours for $25+ are usually more entertaining than any current mmorpg is in a whole month.

    So, comparing the math only fails, as you have to take the quality of entertainment into account. You can't just compare X hours for Y money of any given activity, when both activities' entertainment value is not the same.

    image
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,939
    Simple reason is that other games offer the genre for free.

    Stagnation, short content, generic gameplay compared to many other genre it's hard to justify paying a sub when you can get the same for free other places.   
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    filmoret said:
    That inflation calculator is wrong and severely misunderstood.  You couldn't find a computer in 2001 that cost less then 1k$ brand new.  A gallon of gas still costs about the same as it did back in 2001.  The average wage is still the same as well.  The cost of a new car is about the same.  So inflation exists but not to the severity that most economists describe.
    How - or rather against what - it is measured is indeed a factor. As I said above "tech" costs were very, very high initially.

    Cars however - well when they were first launched they hugely expensive. Same with most stuff.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    gervaise1 said:
    Eldurian said:
    I don't know the exact date that 15$ subs became a thing. I believe it was around 2000. It definitely was by 2003. Check this out though:

    Inflation Calculator

    <snip>

    2004

    NCSoft when they launched CoH (and Lineage?) increased the cost in return for "quarterly content updates". (Which they delivered on up until they went f2p).

    Prior to that it had been $10 which covered the service only, no content updates was the norm with e.g. EQ1 releasing a $30 ish expansion every 6 months. AC's monthly story patch was an attempt to capitalise on an increasing view that the sub was excessive. Bottomline was that in 1999 servers, software, ISPs etc. were very expensive and so the concept of a sub was "accepted". A few years later after huge drops in price but no change in the sub there was much more angst.

    Blizzard went with the $15 and - at least initially - released regular content: 12 patches in 2 years and then BC. (How did they manage to do both Oli? A bigger team Stan, a bigger team.)

    And the likes of Mythic increased their price with a suggestion of "included content". 
    So that still puts it at $19.19 adjusted for inflation. That's some good info though. Thanks for posting that.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited December 2016
    filmoret said:
    That inflation calculator is wrong and severely misunderstood.  You couldn't find a computer in 2001 that cost less then 1k$ brand new.  A gallon of gas still costs about the same as it did back in 2001.  The average wage is still the same as well.  The cost of a new car is about the same.  So inflation exists but not to the severity that most economists describe.
    I used a CPI inflation calculator:
    Consumer Price Index (CPI) - A measure of price changes in consumer goods and services such as gasoline, food, clothing and automobiles. The CPI measures price change from the perspective of the purchaser. U.S. CPI data can be found at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.


    Read more: Inflation: How Is It Measured? | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/university/inflation/inflation2.asp#ixzz4SB89m4Us 
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,544
    edited December 2016
    Your right. $15 today isn't as much as $15 16 years ago. Add in the increased costs of today games and especially players increased expectations. There is no way that is enough anymore. 

    edit - while many things in games are cheaper I'm told (server costs, off shore support) the games themselves cost more generally. 5--million for a game in 2000 was a huge amount. Today 50-100 million is average. 

    edit - the cost to the consumer doesn't really follow inflation, that't true. But the costs of development absolutely follows inflation. Even if you ignore the increased costs due to different tech, people costs more, taxes are more, pens are more, desks are more, insurance is more...

    edit - last edit I swear. I do believe the quality of games and the choices (and variety) in games today is orders of magnitude greater than in the past. However if we compare sub games in 200 with free games, the sub games were vastly superior. Today that isn't the case. Yes sub games definitely increased in quality but free games also increased so much so that with many free games and definitely fremium, IMO there is no difference in quality that justifies a sub. I pay a sub simply because I like the perks it gives me. And many months I don't pay a sub because I'm not using the perks. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Entertainment generally doesn't follow inflation.  Music and games cost about the same as they did in the 90s.

    The one exception is going to the movies- which has been jacked up beyond belief.

    I think the main problem with a sub model is there are just very few MMOs out right now that are worthy of paying for access to.  It's a little bit of a catch 22, because much of why so many MMOs suck is they are designed from the ground up to be p2w and prod you into the shop.

    http://www.davemanuel.com/the-cost-of-a-movie-ticket-throughout-the-years-166/

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Your right. $15 today isn't as much as $15 16 years ago. Add in the increased costs of today games and especially players increased expectations. There is no way that is enough anymore. 

    edit - while many things in games are cheaper I'm told (server costs, off shore support) the games themselves cost more generally. 5--million for a game in 2000 was a huge amount. Today 50-100 million is average. 
    And that only makes sense. This was the expectation back then:



    This is the expectation today:



    While technology has advanced to allow easier creation of advanced graphics I would still have to believe that the 2nd takes more time and resources in 2016 than the first took in 2000.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,544
    That picture looks gorgeous. Is that an in game shot? What game?
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    That's an ArcheAge screenshot. Yes it's game graphics not a cinematic. 
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,386
    Eldurian said:
    That's an ArcheAge screenshot. Yes it's game graphics not a cinematic. 
    I never realised the game was that beautiful.
    image
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