Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The Simple Reason a 15$ Subscription Doesn't Work Anymore

245678

Comments

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    Entertainment generally doesn't follow inflation.  Music and games cost about the same as they did in the 90s.

    The one exception is going to the movies- which has been jacked up beyond belief.

    I think the main problem with a sub model is there are just very few MMOs out right now that are worthy of paying for access to.  It's a little bit of a catch 22, because much of why so many MMOs suck is they are designed from the ground up to be p2w and prod you into the shop.
  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    Entertainment generally doesn't follow inflation.  Music and games cost about the same as they did in the 90s.

    The one exception is going to the movies- which has been jacked up beyond belief.

    I think the main problem with a sub model is there are just very few MMOs out right now that are worthy of paying for access to.  It's a little bit of a catch 22, because much of why so many MMOs suck is they are designed from the ground up to be p2w and prod you into the shop.
    Paying to watch the movie really hasn't gone up that much.  You can still get good deals if you go early....but the price of popcorn left over from the night before or the box of half empty m&ms has been jacked up. 
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Entertainment generally doesn't follow inflation.  Music and games cost about the same as they did in the 90s.

    The one exception is going to the movies- which has been jacked up beyond belief.

    I think the main problem with a sub model is there are just very few MMOs out right now that are worthy of paying for access to.  It's a little bit of a catch 22, because much of why so many MMOs suck is they are designed from the ground up to be p2w and prod you into the shop.

    Totally inaccurate statement. Of the FEW games created as subscription-only games over the past few years, none had built-in P2W models. At all! Yet subscriptions fell off sharply after the 6-month mark. It's not really a matter of being a catch-22, it's a matter of people not willing to spend money on a subscription. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    Forgrimm said:
    I'd gladly pay $21 a month to have access to everything and not be nickel-and-dimed in a cash shop. Cash shops weren't introduced because game devs didn't think people would pay a higher monthly sub cost though, they were introduced because for the majority of games, a cash shop is more profitable for the company, even more so than it would be for them to offer an increased monthly sub rate.
    What % of players do you think pay $252 a year to cash shops to play MMOs? Its well under 5% Im sure.... I always saw the monthly as a total waste of money...The day it went away was a good day.....I handed over hundreds of dollars to WoW and EQ1 and felt totally ripped off.
    They don't need a large percentage of players to pay that kind of money for the cash shop to be profitable. In reality, it's a small percentage of the playerbase that accounts for a large percentage of the overall spending in the game. The whales and big fish subsidize the game for free players and minnows.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,411
    edited December 2016
    I know its an unpopular opinion around here, but imo the sub+game box + paid expansion business model is a huge rip off. Even just a sub of $15 a month is too much for what you get. Something around $10/month seems reasonable if its a game I really like, but otherwise the GW2 model is ideal for me. 

    From my perspective these mmos are just essentially the same game no matter how many expansions or "content updates" they put out. Its like buying skyrim and then having to pay a monthly game tax to use it,- and they are usually no where near as good gameplay wise as a single player rpg anyway.
    ....
  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Member UncommonPosts: 444
    Clearly the subscription still works.  WOW is still hauling in the money.  The reason why games go no subscription is because of the shear number of games available to play.  15 years ago there was 7 or so games you could play.  It was easy to buy the game AND pay the money for a subscription because there were only a few choices.

    Now there are over 150 games that are either in release or going to release.  There is not enough time for people to play or even trial that number of games.  It would costs thousands to just purchase those games let alone a monthly subscription.  It does not matter if they are good games or not, they are forced to go F2P because there are too many games to choose from.

    It is just like the console era before the arrival of the Nintendo system.  You had three major consoles, Atari Intellivision and CollecoVision, and each system had 200 plus games to choose from.  Not enough people to play or even purchase the product.  And games were about 30 dollars back then.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,007
    Shaigh said:
    There is no reason why mmorpg should have a subscription.

    The old argument was network costs but that hasn't been true for a very long time. A newer argument is frequent content creation but developers never managed to do do frequent enough content patches to warrant $15 a month. The real reason for subscription is that they wish to earn more money and for a very long time mmorpg were a golden cow for publishers.

    The reason customers paid $15 a month to access the game was that mmorpg back then had a unique experience you couldn't find elsewhere. That hasn't been true ever since we started to have wow-clones popping up everywhere and as mmorpg became more and more about solo gameplay people no longer want to pay $180 a year just to access a game.

    If you want to charge people for extra content just sell it as dlc. It will be more than enough to keep things running.
    Citation needed.

    I believe it's a little more complicated than 'well, why turn off the money faucet'?

    You can rent a cloud server from Google, but do you have any idea what sort of specs you would need to run a MMORPG?  Do you know of anywhere you can get this for free (other than offloading the burden to the players themselves in a peer-to-peer network including all the pitfalls that entails)?

    There's no such thing as a free lunch.
    The problem that investors have with making new mmorpg has more to do with the initial cost of creating an mmorpg and little to do with how much they cost to run. These games went from costing $2M-$5M and now they are somewhere in the region of $100M-$200M. Instead of making it all back on box sales and a few months subscriptions it takes far more time to pay back the investment to make their original investment back. I have heard talk about half of all mmorpg project never make it to launch and that's a pretty tough gamble to make.

    What made it worth the gamble was that if your gamble paid off you had a part of the golden cow and got huge money thanks to subscription. Nowadays the golden cow has moved on to other genres.

    Please make sure to show a graph on how much of that $15 subscription goes to pay for network costs and tell me why I should keep paying for them.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297
    Eldurian said:
    I don't know the exact date that 15$ subs became a thing. I believe it was around 2000. It definitely was by 2003. Check this out though:

    Inflation Calculator

    Put in the year you played your first 15 and the year you played your first 15$ sub game and hit "Calculate".

    Based on my estimation of 2000, a 15$ sub should now cost people 21$. Yet subscription prices have not increased whatsoever. People just want to go back to the good old days of 15$ subs but it's a lot like people who want to go back to the good old days of five cent coffee. It's been 16 years. We went through a major recession during that time period. 15$ doesn't pay the bills anymore.

    No consumers have ever shown any indication of being tolerant to them jacking up the prices though. Any MMO that did would be massacred by public opinion as "greedy money grabbers." So they gave us cash shops instead. That's on us.

    Bandwidth is one of the major cost-to-serve factors in running a mature MMO. It's hugely cheaper than it was back then.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,906
    edited December 2016
    Shaigh said:
    Shaigh said:
    There is no reason why mmorpg should have a subscription.

    The old argument was network costs but that hasn't been true for a very long time. A newer argument is frequent content creation but developers never managed to do do frequent enough content patches to warrant $15 a month. The real reason for subscription is that they wish to earn more money and for a very long time mmorpg were a golden cow for publishers.

    The reason customers paid $15 a month to access the game was that mmorpg back then had a unique experience you couldn't find elsewhere. That hasn't been true ever since we started to have wow-clones popping up everywhere and as mmorpg became more and more about solo gameplay people no longer want to pay $180 a year just to access a game.

    If you want to charge people for extra content just sell it as dlc. It will be more than enough to keep things running.
    Citation needed.

    I believe it's a little more complicated than 'well, why turn off the money faucet'?

    You can rent a cloud server from Google, but do you have any idea what sort of specs you would need to run a MMORPG?  Do you know of anywhere you can get this for free (other than offloading the burden to the players themselves in a peer-to-peer network including all the pitfalls that entails)?

    There's no such thing as a free lunch.
    The problem that investors have with making new mmorpg has more to do with the initial cost of creating an mmorpg and little to do with how much they cost to run. These games went from costing $2M-$5M and now they are somewhere in the region of $100M-$200M. Instead of making it all back on box sales and a few months subscriptions it takes far more time to pay back the investment to make their original investment back. I have heard talk about half of all mmorpg project never make it to launch and that's a pretty tough gamble to make.

    What made it worth the gamble was that if your gamble paid off you had a part of the golden cow and got huge money thanks to subscription. Nowadays the golden cow has moved on to other genres.

    Please make sure to show a graph on how much of that $15 subscription goes to pay for network costs and tell me why I should keep paying for them.
    No.

    You made the claim that network costs are no longer a factor, you provide the graph.

    I agree with you regarding the initial cost of development along with risk.  Given that creating a MMORPG is such a huge undertaking, it's great that some companies are willing to take the long view and earn back their initial outlay maybe even ten years down the road.  It shows dedication.

    I can't answer for you why you should pay a subscription, other than you like what's being offered.  If I found the same type of experience for free, I probably would take it.
    Post edited by Phaserlight on

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,897
    I must have missed the announcement where WoW stopped charging a subscription, oh wait...

    Meanwhile in reality MMORPGs have gone hybrid with both sub options and cash shops. They are still completely viable.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    $15.00 per month is cheap entertainment.  The price of one movie ticket in some situations so $15.00 for 2 hours of entertainment.   How many of you played online when you had to pay $ per hour?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297
    Shaigh said:
    There is no reason why mmorpg should have a subscription.

    The old argument was network costs but that hasn't been true for a very long time. A newer argument is frequent content creation but developers never managed to do do frequent enough content patches to warrant $15 a month. The real reason for subscription is that they wish to earn more money and for a very long time mmorpg were a golden cow for publishers.

    The reason customers paid $15 a month to access the game was that mmorpg back then had a unique experience you couldn't find elsewhere. That hasn't been true ever since we started to have wow-clones popping up everywhere and as mmorpg became more and more about solo gameplay people no longer want to pay $180 a year just to access a game.

    If you want to charge people for extra content just sell it as dlc. It will be more than enough to keep things running.
    Selling DLC only works for themepark style MMOs.

    I think the subscription I pay for EVE is well justified by CCP: the client is free, expansions are free, the game is free for as long as you want to stay in Alpha (ie: trial) mode, "hats" are in the cash shop, but they can be resold for in-game money, so there's nothing in the game that I can only get by paying real money for. And they actually reduced the subscription price for UK customers a few years ago. £8.33 p/m if I buy 12 months at a time is pretty damb cheap. That's how to justify a subscription IMO.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • ThaneThane Member RarePosts: 3,423
    edited December 2016
    Entertainment generally doesn't follow inflation.  Music and games cost about the same as they did in the 90s.

    The one exception is going to the movies- which has been jacked up beyond belief.

    I think the main problem with a sub model is there are just very few MMOs out right now that are worthy of paying for access to.  It's a little bit of a catch 22, because much of why so many MMOs suck is they are designed from the ground up to be p2w and prod you into the shop.
    actually, paying 30 DM in the 90s was normal, nowadays i pay 30 euro for a cd or dvd, if it's new at least.
    that actually is twice the ammount i payed earlier :)

    and believe me, you didn't pay more than 30 bucks for a game either ^^
    (actually... back then most of the time you didn't pay at all *G*)

    just sayin

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.
    Not to get political but raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses.  The minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.  Trump is FOR raising the wages of middle class Americans not those flipping burgers at mcds...facts sometimes get lost in the "fake news" cycle. 
  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    Most new MMOs aren't worth 15 bucks a month.

    image
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,103
    $15 a month does not work for MMO companies because there is more out there.  People are willing to pay more than $15/month in things like cash shops and paying $15/month+cash for extra stuff.  So long as there is a market the companies will tap it.
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Eldurian said:
    I don't know the exact date that 15$ subs became a thing. I believe it was around 2000. It definitely was by 2003. Check this out though:

    Inflation Calculator

    Put in the year you played your first 15 and the year you played your first 15$ sub game and hit "Calculate".

    Based on my estimation of 2000, a 15$ sub should now cost people 21$. Yet subscription prices have not increased whatsoever. People just want to go back to the good old days of 15$ subs but it's a lot like people who want to go back to the good old days of five cent coffee. It's been 16 years. We went through a major recession during that time period. 15$ doesn't pay the bills anymore.

    No consumers have ever shown any indication of being tolerant to them jacking up the prices though. Any MMO that did would be massacred by public opinion as "greedy money grabbers." So they gave us cash shops instead. That's on us.

    Without also showing and adjusting the entire cost of creating and maintaining an MMO for comparison the whole fifteen dollars should now be twenty one argument is a bit meaningless.

    Regardless, inflation has fuck all to do with why subscriptions don't work for MMOs anymore. The conversion of Free to Play with cash shop model has conditioned many MMO consumers to treat their games just like they treat the music and movie industry. And that is since they can acquire the product for free, or at least a one time cost, they are somehow entitled to not have to pay, and any company trying to get them to pay are somehow being dicks. Which is highly hilarious seeing how much more money per month game companies can exploit from their more compulsive customers via the FTP with cash shop option.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited December 2016
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.
    Not to get political but raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses.  The minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.  Trump is FOR raising the wages of middle class Americans not those flipping burgers at mcds...facts sometimes get lost in the "fake news" cycle. 
    That makes even less sense, the Fed has no control over the wages of the middle class , unless you're implying trickle down economics will result in that.. If so LMAO... Anyway wrong forum for this discussion. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    edited December 2016
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.
    Not to get political but raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses.  The minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.  Trump is FOR raising the wages of middle class Americans not those flipping burgers at mcds...facts sometimes get lost in the "fake news" cycle. 
    That makes even less sense, the Fed has no control over the wages of the middle class , unless you're implying trickle down economics will result in that.. If so LMAO... Anyway wrong forum for this discussion. 
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.
    Not to get political but raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses.  The minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.  Trump is FOR raising the wages of middle class Americans not those flipping burgers at mcds...facts sometimes get lost in the "fake news" cycle. 
    That makes even less sense, the Fed has no control over the wages of the middle class , unless you're implying trickle down economics will result in that.. If so LMAO... Anyway wrong forum for this discussion. 
    Ixnay ethay oliticalpay iscussionday eforebay Ommay etsgay admay.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • Void425Void425 Member UncommonPosts: 170
    edited December 2016
    I think $15 a month is way too low because of economic reasons.  However, I would gladly pay $20 or $25.  

    They could even promote the price structure in such a way that a person could pay $25 a month, or allow a person to load $10+ dollars to there account, then the game could charge them $1.00 each day for logging in from there balance.  

    For hardcores they would want the $25, but for weekend players, and those that have a busy life the $1 a day could actually be cheaper.  Especially useful if a person needs to go on a 2 week vacation, is in the military, ect.

    Even as a hardcore player, I would not mind paying by the hour like old BBS systems.  I believe if they kept there price around 20 to 35 cents per hour this would be reasonable and work better for casual gamers.   This would be more a deterrent for Bots, A plus for the casuals, give an option for the hardcore players, make everyone try to maximize there gameplay vs sitting idle, it may help the economy with auction house prices making people who just sit there all day actually need to consider the cost of there gameplay (they have to be efficient just like others maximizing there gametime).  I am sure there would be a lot of haters, but it is a fair system of charging people to pay for running the servers for the amount of time they actually use them, instead of a flat fee.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

    There they are... the typical assumptions, what may I ask sources do you believe I get my "news" from? I certainly don't prescribe to punditry, which is all most news is today, on both sides... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:
    ...  The average wage is still the same as well...
    I think I'm beginning to understand why Trump got elected if the average wage in the US is still the same after 15 years... :D
    Not to get political, but Trump is one of those against pay increases (raising the min wage) so that makes no sense :P.
    Not to get political but raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses.  The minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.  Trump is FOR raising the wages of middle class Americans not those flipping burgers at mcds...facts sometimes get lost in the "fake news" cycle. 
    That makes even less sense, the Fed has no control over the wages of the middle class , unless you're implying trickle down economics will result in that.. If so LMAO... Anyway wrong forum for this discussion. 
    Ixnay ethay oliticalpay iscussionday eforebay Ommay etsgay admay.

    Oh well I'm due for some type of infraction haven't had one in a long while..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CrusadecrusherCrusadecrusher Member UncommonPosts: 283
    Distopia said:
    Yeah wrong forum and you are clearly reading and listening to the wrong people.  

    Btw the 1,000 carrier jobs and the 50,000 jobs announced yesterday thanks to the "Feds" (Trump) would disagree with the Fake news outlets you read and watch. 

    Like i said you won't be getting actual facts if you keep reading and watching that garbage.

    There they are... the typical assumptions, what may I ask sources do you believe I get my "news" from? I certainly don't prescribe to punditry, which is all most news is today, on both sides... 
    agreed both sides are bad to a point...I have my guesses where you get some of your info...but like we both have said this isn't the correct forum for this chat...I just wanted to pass along some facts you obviously were not up to speed on.  
Sign In or Register to comment.