Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

"Battered & Bruised" Nostalrius Server to Launch Dec 17 - World of Warcraft News

179111213

Comments

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211
    Scorchien said:
    laserit said:                       
    With all do respect Scorch

    The box paints a different picture regarding the "rental" aspect.

    I kind of like the "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."






    Funny but semantics and you know it , but you know what does jump right out on that BOX

       Sales Number
       Billing and Acct
      Billing


      All the information any person could ever want to find out exactly what there money was paying for ....
     
      But as you everyone else who ever payed a sub and has common sense KNOWS "The Adnventure ends when PAyment ends" Like any other service .... ...




      

     Except for Hookers , where the Adventure begins when payment ends , but even they will hold the right to upcharge for additional services ..


      And lets not forget to mention if we are going to have show and tell ......Front of Box


    First Month of Play Included
        Internet Connection Required
         Additional Online Fees Apply

      Anyone here confused by this , or feel it justifies stealing there service at alter date ..



     


    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • WhySoSeriousWhySoSerious Member UncommonPosts: 156
    Aori said:
    For those in defense, just admit you're stealing, stop trying to justify your actions.

    For the rest of us(assumption), we just find it ridiculous that you feel entitled to it and that you believe Blizzard has no right to stop you.

    It's a beautiful thing, that we as individuals can see the world in our own way. This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. What you may view as wrong or illegal, is something I might see as perfectly acceptable.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,870
    edited December 2016
    laserit said:
    Scorchien said:
    laserit said:                       
    With all do respect Scorch

    The box paints a different picture regarding the "rental" aspect.

    I kind of like the "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."






    Funny but semantics and you know it , but you know what does jump right out on that BOX

       Sales Number
       Billing and Acct
      Billing


      All the information any person could ever want to find out exactly what there money was paying for ....
     
      But as you everyone else who ever payed a sub and has common sense KNOWS "The Adnventure ends when PAyment ends" Like any other service .... ...




      

     Except for Hookers , where the Adventure begins when payment ends , but even they will hold the right to upcharge for additional services ..


      And lets not forget to mention if we are going to have show and tell ......Front of Box


    First Month of Play Included
        Internet Connection Required
         Additional Online Fees Apply

      Anyone here confused by this , or feel it justifies stealing there service at alter date ..



     


    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,969
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:
    Scorchien said:
    laserit said:                       
    With all do respect Scorch

    The box paints a different picture regarding the "rental" aspect.

    I kind of like the "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."






    Funny but semantics and you know it , but you know what does jump right out on that BOX

       Sales Number
       Billing and Acct
      Billing


      All the information any person could ever want to find out exactly what there money was paying for ....
     
      But as you everyone else who ever payed a sub and has common sense KNOWS "The Adnventure ends when PAyment ends" Like any other service .... ...




      

     Except for Hookers , where the Adventure begins when payment ends , but even they will hold the right to upcharge for additional services ..


      And lets not forget to mention if we are going to have show and tell ......Front of Box


    First Month of Play Included
        Internet Connection Required
         Additional Online Fees Apply

      Anyone here confused by this , or feel it justifies stealing there service at alter date ..



     


    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Of course your renting the service , For anything in life , If you pay a monthly fee , your are essentially renting the service if you stop paying the service ends , The rest here is semantics .. And becoming exhausting , i really dont have anything else to say on the matter we will just sit back and wait to see how it plays out ....

      But this answers anyones questions about there rights ... And they did agree to each time they logged in .. Its all right there ..

    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/eula.html



  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,780
    Scorchien said:
    gervaise1 said:
    Scorchien said:
     

      Its not up to you/me or anyone else if box price and sub are part of the rental fee Thats there choice , it was your Choice and everyone elses who ever in the last 12 years that have purchased a box and sub to consciously do so Knowing what you were buying into.. You had a Choice then , and at the time it fit your agenda to pay that entry price and sub fee to  play there game...So essentially they rented the service for .65 a day .. Sounds fair to me , Did anyone ever log into Wow and  not  feel they got there .65 cents worth on any particualr day .. ( i know people could come with asinine situations to answer yes , but that would just make them an ass)  To the point they feel entitiled to steal it now..

       Generally every person got there moneys worth .65 a day each time they logged into play , That doesnt give them right to steal that service ..

      That was Blzzs decision for what they felt they needed to bring in for Investors/Overhead/Management /Future Development etc... it doesnt matter they made that choice was theres they could of Asked for 2.00$ a day  ,  the consumer still had the Choice to say no ...

         If Destiny decides they need to add a Sub yes thats ok for them to do and there Choice , its your Choice Not to enter your CC info and pay them .. This is what co. hear ...But if you do enter CC info and click OK , its  not ok to whine about it later or think you are entitled to steal there product afterwards..
    <snip>                  
    As I said this is not how subs started out. The game(s) were sold and the sub was for a service. Now personally I "understood" but it could be an area of contention.


    However your comment about Destiny - and presumably Apple - is not only wrong but worrying.  

    This issue was at the heart of the EU Supreme court that ruled that software is a product. And as a product it is subject to the same protections and rules as other products. (Major EU companies pushed for the ruling btw. Nothing like it has hit the US Supreme court but the entrails suggest the ruling would be the same.)

    Think it through. Do you own a car? Now it depends how old it is but it probably contains software. You take it for a service, sign the paperwork, it gets a software update and when you collect it you get told you have to enter an activation fee every month. $200 charge. WTF you say. "Sorry sir. T&Cs changed. We need the money to develop our new models you understand. And its only $7 a day."

    Notice I was just parroting back what you said. And there are thousands of examples I could have selected from. Courts - fortunately - consider these things. If you buy a product you have the right to expect it to work as purchased, advertised etc. Which is why businesses - many of which depend on (very expensive) software to operate wanted a ruling.

    It is not OK for companies to simply change stuff.

    Now WoW has had a sub from day 1 so I think this would win the day. It is a hole though. They sold the software as a package and then sold the sub as a service. And an argument could be made that someone who bought (not stole) the software is simply using it but not using Blizzard's service.

    Which is a problem Steam have. People bought games through Steam being told they can't play them on GoG or whatever. Not quite the same but in the ballpark.

    Got to think of the big picture.



    Really , really bad anaolgy with the car ,completely over the top hypothetical rubbish ,and viewed differently even by any court ..

      1 of them is a necessity to work and survive , and cost mehh between 10-30k on average

     1 of them is a fuckin game man ... that has cost you nothing but the box price(maybe 30$ for entry ..

                  Car company and GAMES are already regualted differenlty for a reason ... this is obvious and for a reason ..

      And if Destiny decides tommorrow that they announce in 1/17 they will be a 9.99 sub fee to play there GAME , you have a choice dont you ...

        On your car if you scenario played out ,which it never would , You wouldnt have a choice but to pay and be raked over ...If it was possible believe me some car co. would have tried it .. But Automobile co. work under there own set of federal regulations ...

      Your scenario does not apply in a way , shape or form

    If Activision Blizzard opt to put a charge on Destiny fine. You - however - would have the right to return the product for a full refund.

    Check out stuff like "misrepresentation" and "not as advertised". If you see a game advertised, order it, install it, click on accept and find the game you got is totally different you will want to return it. No Man's Sky anyone.

    It is not OK - whatever you say - for customers to be screwed. For AB to simply charge a sub so that - if you decided not to pay - your original investment was now worthless.

    I used the software in a car analogy to point out that so much of what we do today is tied to online. Games and software are different but game software and car software .... see the commonality? Begins with s ends in e?

    Which - as I said - is why a swathe of big companies wanted a ruling on software. And pushed the case all the way to the EU Supreme Court. They were worried and they wanted certainty. There is so much software that if it was suddenly changed on a whim - which you suggest is OK - would seriously screw you, me and everyone else. Banking software, ordering software, HR software, stock control software, its legion. Its about precedents.

    Now - on topic as I said - I think Blizzard would be OK. And, imo, the WoW of today can be claimed to be the WoW of yesteryear. The arguments against can be made though. 


  • sedatedkarmasedatedkarma Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Scorchien said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:
    Scorchien said:
    laserit said:                       
    With all do respect Scorch

    The box paints a different picture regarding the "rental" aspect.

    I kind of like the "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."






    Funny but semantics and you know it , but you know what does jump right out on that BOX

       Sales Number
       Billing and Acct
      Billing


      All the information any person could ever want to find out exactly what there money was paying for ....
     
      But as you everyone else who ever payed a sub and has common sense KNOWS "The Adnventure ends when PAyment ends" Like any other service .... ...




      

     Except for Hookers , where the Adventure begins when payment ends , but even they will hold the right to upcharge for additional services ..


      And lets not forget to mention if we are going to have show and tell ......Front of Box


    First Month of Play Included
        Internet Connection Required
         Additional Online Fees Apply

      Anyone here confused by this , or feel it justifies stealing there service at alter date ..



     


    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Of course your renting the service , For anything in life , If you pay a monthly fee , your are essentially renting the service if you stop paying the service ends , The rest here is semantics .. And becoming exhausting , i really dont have anything else to say on the matter we will just sit back and wait to see how it plays out ....

      But this answers anyones questions about there rights ... And they did agree to each time they logged in .. Its all right there ..

    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/eula.html



    That's dated 2015.  I never signed any agreements with Blizzard at this point and I can't seem to find what the agreement stated in 2006. Furthermore, it's already been established that clicking on one of those agreements means diddly..

    The only reason you're exhausted on the matter is you are so invested in it.  Your stocks and the suits are people I most likely fight on a daily basis.  Just because the world is, doesn't make it right.
    Happily playing Vanilla and BC WoW, again, since September 2016.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,780
    edited December 2016
    Albatroes said:
    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    The nuance is the "included". Included implies its extra to something else. And the obvious something - as the rest of the box makes clear - is the game. Ergo the game was sold. With the free month thrown in as an extra.

    So - the argument could be - you take the game you own, add an internet connection and use a non-Blizzard server ....

    And like @laserit I am not "supporting" or "pre-judging". 

    The box does not say that people are simply "renting".
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,744

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Harbinger of Fools
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,969
    Scorchien said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:
    Scorchien said:
    laserit said:                       
    With all do respect Scorch

    The box paints a different picture regarding the "rental" aspect.

    I kind of like the "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."






    Funny but semantics and you know it , but you know what does jump right out on that BOX

       Sales Number
       Billing and Acct
      Billing


      All the information any person could ever want to find out exactly what there money was paying for ....
     
      But as you everyone else who ever payed a sub and has common sense KNOWS "The Adnventure ends when PAyment ends" Like any other service .... ...




      

     Except for Hookers , where the Adventure begins when payment ends , but even they will hold the right to upcharge for additional services ..


      And lets not forget to mention if we are going to have show and tell ......Front of Box


    First Month of Play Included
        Internet Connection Required
         Additional Online Fees Apply

      Anyone here confused by this , or feel it justifies stealing there service at alter date ..



     


    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Of course your renting the service , For anything in life , If you pay a monthly fee , your are essentially renting the service if you stop paying the service ends , The rest here is semantics .. And becoming exhausting , i really dont have anything else to say on the matter we will just sit back and wait to see how it plays out ....

      But this answers anyones questions about there rights ... And they did agree to each time they logged in .. Its all right there ..

    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/eula.html



    That's dated 2015.  I never signed any agreements with Blizzard at this point and I can't seem to find what the agreement stated in 2006. Furthermore, it's already been established that clicking on one of those agreements means diddly..

    The only reason you're exhausted on the matter is you are so invested in it.  Your stocks and the suits are people I most likely fight on a daily basis.  Just because the world is, doesn't make it right.
    lol im no suit brother , i dont even own a fuggin tie :)
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,022
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
    That's an interesting comparison, but I don't see it that way.  People who chose not to believe in solid science aren't making a moral judgment based on reason.  They're irrationally wallowing in ignorance.  I don't believe that's the same as deciding whether or not you will abide by a law you find morally objectionable.  There is no reasonable argument for choosing not to vaccinate your children.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211
    edited December 2016
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:

    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Lol?

    "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Again lets go back to the time, a time where *Subscription* MMORPGs were the thing and also were quite new to the general public.

    Oh golly gee a "Subscription" isn't that what Blizzard calls it? I go to Hertz or Avis,  I don't subscribe a car, I rent one.

    I've subscribed to many things in my lifetime. Magazines anyone? Last I checked when I cancelled my subscription to National Geographic I could still read my magazines.

    Maybe those "Additional online fees apply" or what we call a "Subscription" were justified by front men in the industry like Richard Garriott to pay for things like...

    wait for it.....

    "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."

    Rental my ass

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,022
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
    That's an interesting comparison, but I don't see it that way.  People who chose not to believe in solid science aren't making a moral judgment based on reason.  They're irrationally wallowing in ignorance.  I don't believe that's the same as deciding whether or not you will abide by a law you find morally objectionable.  There is no reasonable argument for choosing not to vaccinate your children.
    You're absolutely right.  But talk to one of these buffoons and you'll find out they do think they are morally right.  They are so ignorant to the science that they put their own spawn in danger.  Which is fine, but that spawn puts everyone else in danger as well.  
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    Well... History has shown that more than a handful of corporate and limited companies suffer from the same issue.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    laserit said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:

    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Lol?

    "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Again lets go back to the time, a time where *Subscription* MMORPGs were the thing and also were quite new to the general public.

    Oh golly gee a "Subscription" isn't that what Blizzard calls it? I go to Hertz or Avis,  I don't subscribe a car, I rent one.

    I've subscribed to many things in my lifetime. Magazines anyone? Last I checked when I cancelled my subscription to National Geographic I could still read my magazines.

    Maybe those "Additional online fees apply" or what we call a "Subscription" were justified by front men in the industry like Richard Garriott to pay for things like...

    wait for it.....

    "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."

    Rental my ass

    The monthly subscription price was the compromise from paying $ per hour.  It was a deal. It was a steal.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:

    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Lol?

    "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Again lets go back to the time, a time where *Subscription* MMORPGs were the thing and also were quite new to the general public.

    Oh golly gee a "Subscription" isn't that what Blizzard calls it? I go to Hertz or Avis,  I don't subscribe a car, I rent one.

    I've subscribed to many things in my lifetime. Magazines anyone? Last I checked when I cancelled my subscription to National Geographic I could still read my magazines.

    Maybe those "Additional online fees apply" or what we call a "Subscription" were justified by front men in the industry like Richard Garriott to pay for things like...

    wait for it.....

    "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."

    Rental my ass

    The monthly subscription price was the compromise from paying $ per hour.  It was a deal. It was a steal.
    True... But salt was once worth its weight in gold and a 14" color TV cost $400 in 1979 dollars.

    Times change (sometimes for the better, sometimes not) ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    laserit said:
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:

    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Lol?

    "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Again lets go back to the time, a time where *Subscription* MMORPGs were the thing and also were quite new to the general public.

    Oh golly gee a "Subscription" isn't that what Blizzard calls it? I go to Hertz or Avis,  I don't subscribe a car, I rent one.

    I've subscribed to many things in my lifetime. Magazines anyone? Last I checked when I cancelled my subscription to National Geographic I could still read my magazines.

    Maybe those "Additional online fees apply" or what we call a "Subscription" were justified by front men in the industry like Richard Garriott to pay for things like...

    wait for it.....

    "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."

    Rental my ass

    The monthly subscription price was the compromise from paying $ per hour.  It was a deal. It was a steal.
    True... But salt was once worth its weight in gold and a 14" color TV cost $400 in 1979 dollars.

    Times change (sometimes for the better, sometimes not) ;)

    How much does dinner and a movie cost?  What is the cost per hour vs a game sub?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 1,949
    Aori said:

    Aori said:

    Enjoy your 400ms of free gameplay, dirty leechers.




    Actually my latency is below 200. And Blizzard doesn't offer a paid Vanilla server, so "leeching" is the only option I have.
    Thought the server wasn't out yet? 

    Either way, if the server is located in Russia, and it depends on where in Russia but for most people they won't be seeing sub 200ms. Add in cheaply run servers and overload, you're going to have some nasty latency.
    I was worried about the latency myself. The original Nost servers were good, never went above 150ms. But, after three stress tests my fears have been alleviated. While I saw my ping climb well into the thousands on the first two tests, during the third (and most populated) test my ping was fairly stable, hovering at around 150ms while playing from Missouri.

    The only time my ping climbed into the 300-400ms range was near the end, when there were at least 10k concurrent players on the server (some were saying it eventually got to over 15k) and another 5k or so waiting in queue. This was with hundreds or even thousands in the same zones, as both factions were funneled into a few zones for PvP events.

    I'd say the servers are actually pretty damn good. Unless someone has really slow internet I don't think ping should be much of a worry. Looking forward to the 17th, my pally's journey was just beginning.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,969
    laserit said:
    Albatroes said:
    laserit said:

    I'm a straight shooter, I like to cut to the chase, call a spade a spade.

    No where does it state on the box that you are only renting the product. Remember that places like Block Buster at the time were quite clearly *renting* games. No purchase price required.

    If your charging me a purchase price for the right to *rent* a product, you better make that very fucking clear and it better be before I pay you my hard earned money.

    The debate is whether *you* as the *purchaser* of the *product* have the right to use the product that you *purchased* for your own personal enjoyment.

    That's the foundation of one of the legal arguments. The music industry faced a similar argument with the use of recordable cassette tapes etc. and it was ruled that consumers had the right to make copies of the music for their own personal use.

    Another legal arguement is whether someone like Nostalrius can develop software of their own design, making use of their own assets, that has the capability to interact with a product that you purchased so you could use it for your own personal enjoyment.

    I'm sure the Car companies and their stock holders would love to make aftermarket parts and that industry illegal.

    I find it very interesting that Blizzard and the other companies affected seem to have no appetite to actually take these arguments into a court room. IMHO there is a significant chance that a ruling might not go their way. 

    I'm not judging the case, that's for the courts. I can see valid arguments on both sides.

    p.s.

    Looking at the actual box its quite interesting to see the the "Experience may change during online play" point that people like to use actually only pertains to the ESRB rating.

    You said no where on the box did it say you were renting the game? "First month of play included" "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply" all of which are stated on both sides of the box lol

    Sounds like renting to me.
    Lol?

    "Internet connection required" "Additional online fees apply"

    Again lets go back to the time, a time where *Subscription* MMORPGs were the thing and also were quite new to the general public.

    Oh golly gee a "Subscription" isn't that what Blizzard calls it? I go to Hertz or Avis,  I don't subscribe a car, I rent one.

    I've subscribed to many things in my lifetime. Magazines anyone? Last I checked when I cancelled my subscription to National Geographic I could still read my magazines.

    Maybe those "Additional online fees apply" or what we call a "Subscription" were justified by front men in the industry like Richard Garriott to pay for things like...

    wait for it.....

    "Blizzards dedicated live team creates a constant stream of new adventure to undertake, lands to explore, and monsters to vanquish. The epic quest never ends."

    Rental my ass
       Cmon man , another silly anolagy , your magazines really, Noone needs to Maintenace your magazine , or pay employees , Or Monitor Service for you Magazine/or perform Acct services /or Produce future content for it .. Its your fuggin magazine .. Fuck man its sounds so stupid .. You are better than that ..

        And maybe Rental is just a bad word , but you were paying to use a monthlty service , You stop paying the service stops , it Doesnt give anyone the right to steal those services later ..It really is cut and dry common sense to me , amazing
  • sedatedkarmasedatedkarma Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
    Sure it can be that extreme, but if that's the only example you have clearly you haven't been living in the world I am.  I'm sure if we put our heads together we can come up with a multitude of laws that need attention.  I can tell you in the U.S. Family Law has quite a few things that need to be addressed.
    Happily playing Vanilla and BC WoW, again, since September 2016.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
    That's what you got out of Sedryn's post?  Do you see the world in shades, or just black and white?

    Sedryn's making the same point I've attempted to make before regarding Nost: you can fanboy all you like for whatever game developer you like...  They aren't on your side.  They're on the "I want to keep my job and to do that I have to make the company money" side.  Your feelings, good or bad, for their work only comes into play insofar as they can exploit the knowledge of those feelings to increase or protect profits.  Stop acting as if companies care whether you think IP laws are right or wrong.  All they care about is whether or not the judge agrees with what's most beneficial to them.  And, quite frankly, they don't give a rat's ass if a law is right or wrong, morally, when it is beneficial to the bottom line.

    Until I see evidence to suggest companies have the same morality police as these forums seem to have, I'm going to keep the opinion that the private server was more than likely illegal, but if Blizzard really was concerned about the money they're losing to it, they'd take more steps then auto-piloting a C&D to the company and calling it a day (the visit for the Nost devs was nothing but opium for the masses- see "exploit the knowledge of those feelings to increase or protect profits" above).  I'd bet the house that, when Nost shut down, there was no noticeable effect on Blizzard's bottom line for WoW, which is why no further steps were ever going to be taken against the team (if past evidence of Blizzard's lack of suits against privately run servers is any indication).  If people simply wanted to play a free version of WoW, they could do so on a server that included the expansions as that's objectively more content to play than vanilla.    Nost was specifically vanilla, and I've yet to see anyone, in multiple threads regarding the server, come up with a weightier argument than "because" or "entitlement generation" for why a vanilla server, with objectively less content to enjoy, would rise, head and shoulders, above and beyond other private servers with expansions that are just as free.

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.
    And this is how idiot anti-vaxxers bring their delusions to the table.  The reason preventable diseases are making a comeback in the western world.  
    Sure it can be that extreme, but if that's the only example you have clearly you haven't been living in the world I am.  I'm sure if we put our heads together we can come up with a multitude of laws that need attention.  I can tell you in the U.S. Family Law has quite a few things that need to be addressed.
    The U.S. gives tax breaks still today to Mohair farmers because the government used their wool for army uniforms...  During WWII.

    And it wasn't for lack of notice: in 2002, an attempt was made to cancel the subsidy.  It got shot down.  So yea, anyone who takes laws at face value and refuses to think critically about the underlying effects before taking it as legitimate...  They're missing a lot of the story.

    image
  • HeretiqueHeretique Member RarePosts: 1,499
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.

    At least you'd get the vote from murderers and rapist who would wholeheartedly agree with you.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Heretique said:
    Dakeru said:

    This flawed system of laws that I was born into, is not going to corrupt me. 
    'The law is the problem - it doesn't let me do what I want'

    That kind of twisted view makes me hope you are getting professional help before something bad happens.
    Actually, it's a perfectly rational view, and your quote does not reflect the meaning behind what was written.  A person's sense of right and wrong should be based on their own moral code, which isn't always reflected in law.  To just accept rules as being inherently righteous, without question, is the exact opposite of wisdom.

    At least you'd get the vote from murderers and rapist who would wholeheartedly agree with you.

    Were this kind of attitude adhered to regarding laws, most in America would still not have the right to vote.

    And the world would be a baffling and frightening place the first time you cornered a moral opinion on a law only to find the issue handled very differently in another part of the world.

    image
Sign In or Register to comment.