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"Battered & Bruised" Nostalrius Server to Launch Dec 17 - World of Warcraft News

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  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 760
    edited December 2016
    Aori said:
    sayuu said:
    I dunno.

    Everyone is shouting IP THEFT left and right around here, yet not once have I seen mention of the semi-new provisions in  the US' DMCA in regards to online games or online services that are no longer available.

    If Nost went to court they would have to prove that the original owner no longer provides the game in question. What is interesting is that one can logically argue that while WoW 7.0 is still WoW, WoW 1.12 is ALSO WoW but is no longer available by the owners choice. Also much of the art assets used in 1.12 has also been abandoned for newer models as WoW has trudged on over the years.

    it would be an interesting case, as it would be the first use of the new provisions to prove legality on behalf of non-profit entity for a game that is still in service yet does not provide access to an older version of said service.


    so it is not a clear case of IP theft, nor is it a certainty that the Emulated server is legal. Mainly because such an occurrence has not gone to trial under the new DMCA provisions to give legal precedent.


    P.S.
    Copyright and Trademarks don't disappear, the original work is still protected. Obviously this can change but we'll be dead before any Blizzard product becomes public with current laws.
    please google and read about the changes I mentioned to the US' DMCA passed into law in 2015 because the law did change  in regards to abandonware services and the legality of their emulation.

     you are making an argument based on a false premise, that the current law makes this an open and shut case of IP theft, before 2015 you would have been right. . .right before it changed.


  • sedatedkarmasedatedkarma Member UncommonPosts: 181
    Xodic said:
    There was a time where gamers just wanted to play games. They didn't give a damn about the tribulations of big corporations. They also didn't care about how much money these companies could swindle with questionable business practices, but that's because companies weren't pulling the shit they are today.

    Most of you are more than willing to not only bend over and take it, but defend the actions as well. Everywhere I look someone is defending gambling boxes, micro transactions, cash shops, 4 month expansion releases and day one DLC, all while claiming that as long as the company is making money they will make a better game. Well, I guess that's why they keep shoveling the same shit down your throat; because just like Coke isn't going to change their recipe with an extra billion dollars - neither are these games going to get any better. You don't go out of your way to improve something when millions of dumbfounded dip-shits are throwing money at you.

    So now, not only do people defend the cash grabbing they are condemning the people that are trying to stick it to the companies that are sticking it to the players.

    If Blizzard is smug enough to ignore the thousands of gamers that want this experience, then f! them and f! everyone responsible for ruining my favorite pass time event by turning games into nothing more than a 'product'.

    I feel much better - thank you for the opportunity to allow me a tantrum.

    XOXO
    This was beautiful sir.  I not only smiled, I wept.  
    Happily playing Vanilla and BC WoW, again, since September 2016.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,398
    Xodic said:
    There was a time where gamers just wanted to play games. They didn't give a damn about the tribulations of big corporations. They also didn't care about how much money these companies could swindle with questionable business practices, but that's because companies weren't pulling the shit they are today.

    Most of you are more than willing to not only bend over and take it, but defend the actions as well. Everywhere I look someone is defending gambling boxes, micro transactions, cash shops, 4 month expansion releases and day one DLC, all while claiming that as long as the company is making money they will make a better game. Well, I guess that's why they keep shoveling the same shit down your throat; because just like Coke isn't going to change their recipe with an extra billion dollars - neither are these games going to get any better. You don't go out of your way to improve something when millions of dumbfounded dip-shits are throwing money at you.

    So now, not only do people defend the cash grabbing they are condemning the people that are trying to stick it to the companies that are sticking it to the players.

    If Blizzard is smug enough to ignore the thousands of gamers that want this experience, then f! them and f! everyone responsible for ruining my favorite pass time event by turning games into nothing more than a 'product'.

    I feel much better - thank you for the opportunity to allow me a tantrum.

    XOXO
    That's because some "gamers" treat video games as a right and not a product.

    Also some of us actually have jobs, work for a living, and know that if our companies don't make money we will be in trouble. I would love to see the response from players if they found out their companies were not making the bottom line because potential customers decided to bypass paying and still obtained services/goods. I bet they would throw a fit.

    Believe me, theoretically no one wants to pay for a thing, including me. I want everything to be free. I truly do. But that's not how the world works and I go to my job every day just like the developers do.

    They don't owe you a thing except to make a product that you may or may not want to purchase. If their product is not to your liking then it's not your thing and you should most assuredly not spend a dime on it.

    But some players think that these games are theirs by birthright and try to get away with everything that they can. It's just one more line on my long list why I'm embarrassed to tell people I play video games as video game culture has a P.R. problem of demanding man boys/woman girls who come across as spoiled children with screwed up priorities.

    Stick it to the companies? How about not patronize them and move on? That I can support.






  • sedatedkarmasedatedkarma Member UncommonPosts: 181
    edited December 2016
    Dakeru said:
    nasus44 said:

    Aori said:

    Enjoy your 400ms of free gameplay, dirty leechers.



    Enjoy being a run of the mill minion that can't come up with a better insult. FYI, I have great internet. :)

    So, if I choose to play I won't have any problems. Bye. :D




    It's really pathetic that you don't even understand what you just said....

    He understands that a 400ms connection is what someone thinks a private server runs on average.  I'm a new recruit to private servers and I can tell you regardless of where I've played I've not had anything over 100ms.
    Happily playing Vanilla and BC WoW, again, since September 2016.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,200
    They can still force them to prevent the end user from using any IP owned by blizivison... It will be ugly and in the end not worth it.. but they could. 

    They can also simply force them to block any US/EU IP. 

    But to be fair.... I can´t even be care any more. 

    Let the entitled little twits have their inflatable pool... Just as long as they agree to stay there and leave the rest of the internet alone. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • xxgradiusxxxxgradiusxx Member UncommonPosts: 5
    Server providers, in this case the Elysium team, try to convey a 'love of the game' message in their videos. I take this as a love of the game overall sort of message, in that, we're a part of the global WoW community, not just a shard or splinter of it. If you subscribe to this philosophy, then it shouldn't matter where you play WoW.

    While players are not directly supporting Blizzard financially by playing on a private server, a large part of this community would, if they could. I play on private servers myself and I would pay to play on legacy servers. No question.

    Private servers were developed (primarily) because of people's love for earlier versions of the game. The dream would be having this in a retail setting, supporting Blizzard. I like to think of Private Servers as a message to Blizzard, and it's one I think they're hearing loud and clear at this point. We just have to hope they take action, and if they don't, the private server community isn't going anywhere.

    Regardless of opinion, we're playing World of Warcraft. We're playing a game that we love.

    With regard to the legality of things..

    I'm not a lawyer, I'm only explaining things the way I see them with regard to this issue.
    The private server software was developed from scratch and no Blizzard assets are used. The server software doesn't contain images, or anything else like that. In fact, I don't believe it uses any actual Blizzard assets. You're essentially connecting to a piece of software that is connected to a database that has all of the items/quests/etc. in it (quests/items are not trademarked/copyrighted things).

    The Software that you're using to connect, the WoW client is not illegal, you've simply chosen not to update it to the latest version. The EULA (for the vanilla version) doesn't mention anything about not updating, etc. (as far as I'm aware) so there isn't anything illegal going on.

    The EULA probably mentions something about reverse engineering the client, but it doesn't mention anything about server software. Regardless however, the servers/cores that private servers run aren't "Reverse Engineered" servers, the software was built from the ground up, as I understand it.

    While there is a LOT of "Grey Area" stuff here, there is a lot that isn't defined/categorized/etc.

    If something like this actual went to court and the technical details were laid out well, I can't see Blizzard winning anything on this.

  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,182
    Dakeru said:
    nasus44 said:

    Aori said:

    Enjoy your 400ms of free gameplay, dirty leechers.



    Enjoy being a run of the mill minion that can't come up with a better insult. FYI, I have great internet. :)

    So, if I choose to play I won't have any problems. Bye. :D




    It's really pathetic that you don't even understand what you just said....

    He understands that a 400ms connection is what someone thinks a private server runs on average.  I'm a new recruit to private servers and I can tell you regardless of where I've played I've not had anything over 100ms.
    Unless you're in Russia, I can pretty much promise your ping is above 100. Considering these aren't premium servers you would expect from a company like Blizzard, it is going to be fairly high for those flooding in from beyond the borders of the motherland.
  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,079
    What blows me away is that people say they can't wait to get back into the 'Vanilla community.' The Vanilla community is why I quit this game. The Vanilla community was still there when BC released, and their 'wonderfulness' is why I will NEVER play any version of WoW ever, ever again.

    That said, I really think that Blizzard needs to do what they can to appease their fan base. There is a strong community that wants Vanilla servers, and Blizz should give them to the players. Problem solved. Won't need pirate servers if there is an official one. I have always thought that game publishers should give players what they want; within reason of course! An item that takes up one inv slot and and slays everything within 50 meters, including players, with one shot is not reasonable. Making early version servers that require virtually no support (and that players are willing to pay a reduced rate sub for) is reasonable.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    That is not the same thing as stealing another companies IP and using everything in it and you know it. Stop injecting these retarded scenarios to make yourself feel better about partaking in the theft of another companies IP.

    Edit: The people here spouting off that they bought Vanilla WoW and can no longer play that WoW need to stop. You can still play WoW, just because it is not the WoW YOU want, doesn't mean it is not WoW. It is still WoW and it is still going. 

    The box even says online gameplay may change. 

    Nowhere on a light does it say you can't light whatever the hell you want after purchasing it. 
    Who's stealing?

    If you use my cigarette lighter to light a cigar you are breaking my EULA, your not stealing. I can try to take you to court and claim damages but I don't believe it would go very far. I believe the a judge would probably rule that my EULA violates any kind of fair use.

    Clicking a check box on the internet does not a contract make.

    The "The box even says online game play may change" is written to absolve the vendor of any kind of financial responsibility should you be dissatisfied with any changes made to the product. It's not a statement of IP protection.

    The question of "fair use" to the best of my knowledge, is one that has not been legally tested in regards to this type of circumstance. When monies are not being exchanged, it makes the waters pretty murky. If a company like Blizzard does end up taking a private, fan run, *free* server to court, they are rolling the dice big time. I don't believe companies are too eager to test the waters here, it could easily bite them in the ass.

    My comments are purely conjecture, with a dash of real world experience.

    I once developed a product, produced and sold it for over four years in my native country of Canada. Then one day out of the blue came a cease and desist letter from a big American corporation. I believe that they were full of crap and I had a case but I had to make a big decision. Do I fight them? They have pretty deep pockets, I had made quite a decent amount of coin from the product over the four + years. I decided that instead of risking loosing that money in escalating legal fees, I just decided to call it a day with the product and sold the production line to a company in Poland.

    By the way, a cigarette lighter or any product for that matter, is an intellectual property.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,182
    sayuu said:
    Aori said:
    sayuu said:
    I dunno.

    Everyone is shouting IP THEFT left and right around here, yet not once have I seen mention of the semi-new provisions in  the US' DMCA in regards to online games or online services that are no longer available.

    If Nost went to court they would have to prove that the original owner no longer provides the game in question. What is interesting is that one can logically argue that while WoW 7.0 is still WoW, WoW 1.12 is ALSO WoW but is no longer available by the owners choice. Also much of the art assets used in 1.12 has also been abandoned for newer models as WoW has trudged on over the years.

    it would be an interesting case, as it would be the first use of the new provisions to prove legality on behalf of non-profit entity for a game that is still in service yet does not provide access to an older version of said service.


    so it is not a clear case of IP theft, nor is it a certainty that the Emulated server is legal. Mainly because such an occurrence has not gone to trial under the new DMCA provisions to give legal precedent.


    P.S.
    Copyright and Trademarks don't disappear, the original work is still protected. Obviously this can change but we'll be dead before any Blizzard product becomes public with current laws.
    please google and read about the changes I mentioned to the US' DMCA passed into law in 2015 because the law did change  in regards to abandonware services and the legality of their emulation.

     you are making an argument based on a false premise, that the current law makes this an open and shut case of IP theft, before 2015 you would have been right. . .right before it changed.


    Sorry but WoW doesn't fall under abandonware in any way shape or form. You're grasping at invisible straws.

    Regardless, abandoned software is still protected by copyright law and if the owner of the copyright wishes can prosecute any violators of the copyright law. It is not legal to distribute even abandoned software that is copyrighted.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    What if someone lights a cigarette with your lighter then uses their cigarette to light another cigarette?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,398
    GladDog said:
     Making early version servers that require virtually no support (and that players are willing to pay a reduced rate sub for) is reasonable.
    I wonder how true this part is though.

    It costs money to run servers and for players to connect to them.

    Blizzard will want things to run well as it's their company name on the line.

    To that end, company's budget everything as well as forecast costs, profits, etc.

    Just because the "product" the public servers put out don't cost much doesn't mean that's how Blizzard wants their product to be represented. My guess is that this costs more than players realize because they are thinking of it only in the context of "all you need is the server software and we're good".
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    What if someone lights a cigarette with your lighter then uses their cigarette to light another cigarette?
    FUCK !!!

    I hadn't thought about that !

    I'd better update my Eula ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,200
    laserit said:
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    What if someone lights a cigarette with your lighter then uses their cigarette to light another cigarette?
    FUCK !!!

    I hadn't thought about that !

    I'd better update my Eula ;)
    or if they light a candle with said cigarette, and then use that to have a "enternal flame" and never buy another lighter from you. Sharing said flame with their community. Making sure you do not sell any more lighters period. 

    Silly i know.. 

    Anyway.. This whole thing i would guess have killed any chance a vanilla project ever had with Blizzard. (not that it was that much of a chance to begin with... Now it is mulch.)

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,182
    tawess said:
    They can still force them to prevent the end user from using any IP owned by blizivison... It will be ugly and in the end not worth it.. but they could. 

    They can also simply force them to block any US/EU IP. 

    But to be fair.... I can´t even be care any more. 

    Let the entitled little twits have their inflatable pool... Just as long as they agree to stay there and leave the rest of the internet alone. 
    Honestly I think you are making a drastic mistake by thinking that everyone who plays on these emulated servers don't still support or play current Wow. Just because they want to play a version of the game they started with doesn't mean they hate the current one, or are just deadbeats. Personally I have no desire to play either version of the game, nothing against Wow personally, just sick of tab target MMOs, I just find the current situation fascinating. However from past experience I know that many private server users still played normal wow as well. Even during the days when "Vanilla" Wow was still around. I don't imagine that has changed much the past few years.
    I'm pretty confidant the majority of people on pirated servers are doing it because its free.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,200

    Honestly I think you are making a drastic mistake by thinking that everyone who plays on these emulated servers don't still support or play current Wow. 
    Never made any such claim. But the thing is... Most of these "tweeners" will not care one way or antoher.. they will not take to the streets or do the legwork... They will play on Nost if they can, and remenis over beer when they can´t. 

    The ones i have a problem with are the zealots and their misguided crusade

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,398
    tawess said:
    laserit said:
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    What if someone lights a cigarette with your lighter then uses their cigarette to light another cigarette?
    FUCK !!!

    I hadn't thought about that !

    I'd better update my Eula ;)
    or if they light a candle with said cigarette, and then use that to have a "enternal flame" and never buy another lighter from you. Sharing said flame with their community. Making sure you do not sell any more lighters period. 

    Silly i know.. 

    Anyway.. This whole thing i would guess have killed any chance a vanilla project ever had with Blizzard. (not that it was that much of a chance to begin with... Now it is mulch.)
    Not necessarily.

    If anything (and if Blizzard actually wants to make a classic server) they would want to make a superior experience so that anyone playing on an emulated server would be enticed to use Blizzard's effort.

    Part of the problem with this discussion is that some players are thinking like "players" and not thinking like a company.

    Blizzard is not going to get "offended" because suddenly this server is going to pop up after they met with these guys.

    They are going to look at whether it's financially feasible to do it in the way they would want and whether it would be worth the money (or worth it in terms of player good will). They will then want to make a great experience so that there is no choice other than to use their service.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    That is not the same thing as stealing another companies IP and using everything in it and you know it. Stop injecting these retarded scenarios to make yourself feel better about partaking in the theft of another companies IP.

    Edit: The people here spouting off that they bought Vanilla WoW and can no longer play that WoW need to stop. You can still play WoW, just because it is not the WoW YOU want, doesn't mean it is not WoW. It is still WoW and it is still going. 

    The box even says online gameplay may change. 

    Nowhere on a light does it say you can't light whatever the hell you want after purchasing it. 
    Who's stealing?

    If you use my cigarette lighter to light a cigar you are breaking my EULA, your not stealing. I can try to take you to court and claim damages but I don't believe it would go very far. I believe the a judge would probably rule that my EULA violates any kind of fair use.

    Clicking a check box on the internet does not a contract make.

    The "The box even says online game play may change" is written to absolve the vendor of any kind of financial responsibility should you be dissatisfied with any changes made to the product. It's not a statement of IP protection.

    The question of "fair use" to the best of my knowledge, is one that has not been legally tested in regards to this type of circumstance. When monies are not being exchanged, it makes the waters pretty murky. If a company like Blizzard does end up taking a private, fan run, *free* server to court, they are rolling the dice big time. I don't believe companies are too eager to test the waters here, it could easily bite them in the ass.

    My comments are purely conjecture, with a dash of real world experience.

    I once developed a product, produced and sold it for over four years in my native country of Canada. Then one day out of the blue came a cease and desist letter from a big American corporation. I believe that they were full of crap and I had a case but I had to make a big decision. Do I fight them? They have pretty deep pockets, I had made quite a decent amount of coin from the product over the four + years. I decided that instead of risking loosing that money in escalating legal fees, I just decided to call it a day with the product and sold the production line to a company in Poland.

    By the way, a cigarette lighter or any product for that matter, is an intellectual property.
    You're comparing EULA to the theft of an IP, they aren't even the same thing. These people aren't just breaking a EULA, they are stealing an IP and those partaking in it are doing the same thing. You agreed to play WoW even if it changes. And the box says it may change. So you bought the box, before even agreeing, knowing it could change. 

    Stealing someone's IP, guess what side the judge is going to side on. That is the debate here.

    And a lighter maybe an IP, but it doesn't come with a EULA, I would just go to the next one. No need to agree to any terms for lighting a lighter.
    Well you guys make this EULA thing sound really really lucrative. Us manufacturer's may have to jump on board $$$

    There is no reason why physical everyday products can't have EULA's just like the software industry and it sure as hell wouldn't be for your benefit.

    If you use my Taco sauce on a Hamburger I'll fucking sue your ass ;)

    Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.

    Good thing Judges are usually more reasonable than the rest of us.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,398
    laserit said:
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    That is not the same thing as stealing another companies IP and using everything in it and you know it. Stop injecting these retarded scenarios to make yourself feel better about partaking in the theft of another companies IP.

    Edit: The people here spouting off that they bought Vanilla WoW and can no longer play that WoW need to stop. You can still play WoW, just because it is not the WoW YOU want, doesn't mean it is not WoW. It is still WoW and it is still going. 

    The box even says online gameplay may change. 

    Nowhere on a light does it say you can't light whatever the hell you want after purchasing it. 
    Who's stealing?

    If you use my cigarette lighter to light a cigar you are breaking my EULA, your not stealing. I can try to take you to court and claim damages but I don't believe it would go very far. I believe the a judge would probably rule that my EULA violates any kind of fair use.

    Clicking a check box on the internet does not a contract make.

    The "The box even says online game play may change" is written to absolve the vendor of any kind of financial responsibility should you be dissatisfied with any changes made to the product. It's not a statement of IP protection.

    The question of "fair use" to the best of my knowledge, is one that has not been legally tested in regards to this type of circumstance. When monies are not being exchanged, it makes the waters pretty murky. If a company like Blizzard does end up taking a private, fan run, *free* server to court, they are rolling the dice big time. I don't believe companies are too eager to test the waters here, it could easily bite them in the ass.

    My comments are purely conjecture, with a dash of real world experience.

    I once developed a product, produced and sold it for over four years in my native country of Canada. Then one day out of the blue came a cease and desist letter from a big American corporation. I believe that they were full of crap and I had a case but I had to make a big decision. Do I fight them? They have pretty deep pockets, I had made quite a decent amount of coin from the product over the four + years. I decided that instead of risking loosing that money in escalating legal fees, I just decided to call it a day with the product and sold the production line to a company in Poland.

    By the way, a cigarette lighter or any product for that matter, is an intellectual property.
    You're comparing EULA to the theft of an IP, they aren't even the same thing. These people aren't just breaking a EULA, they are stealing an IP and those partaking in it are doing the same thing. You agreed to play WoW even if it changes. And the box says it may change. So you bought the box, before even agreeing, knowing it could change. 

    Stealing someone's IP, guess what side the judge is going to side on. That is the debate here.

    And a lighter maybe an IP, but it doesn't come with a EULA, I would just go to the next one. No need to agree to any terms for lighting a lighter.
    Well you guys make this EULA thing sound really really lucrative. Us manufacturer's may have to jump on board $$$

    There is no reason why physical everyday products can't have EULA's just like the software industry and it sure as hell wouldn't be for your benefit.

    If you use my Taco sauce on a Hamburger I'll fucking sue your ass ;)

    Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.

    Good thing Judges are usually more reasonable than the rest of us.
    except companies that make taco sauce would LOVE to have their product used on a hamburger. The more uses for their product the more money they make.

    As far as the lighter they "want" you to light other people's cigarettes', candles "whatever" as it puts their product in front of other users so if they should find themselves in need of buying a lighter why not buy one that they know and that they know is dependable?

    These arguments aren't pertinent as they are sort of "Strawman" arguments. they are comparisons of apples to oranges.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    Meh...

    I make cigarette lighters and by opening the package you are agreeing to my EULA which can also be found on the internet so you can read before you buy.

    If you use the cigarette lighter to light a cigar, you are a thief and a scoundrel.

    You must buy my cigar lighter for that.

    Also.... have a look at my nice campfire lighters, they come packaged in a nice piece of recycled newspaper.
    That is not the same thing as stealing another companies IP and using everything in it and you know it. Stop injecting these retarded scenarios to make yourself feel better about partaking in the theft of another companies IP.

    Edit: The people here spouting off that they bought Vanilla WoW and can no longer play that WoW need to stop. You can still play WoW, just because it is not the WoW YOU want, doesn't mean it is not WoW. It is still WoW and it is still going. 

    The box even says online gameplay may change. 

    Nowhere on a light does it say you can't light whatever the hell you want after purchasing it. 
    Who's stealing?

    If you use my cigarette lighter to light a cigar you are breaking my EULA, your not stealing. I can try to take you to court and claim damages but I don't believe it would go very far. I believe the a judge would probably rule that my EULA violates any kind of fair use.

    Clicking a check box on the internet does not a contract make.

    The "The box even says online game play may change" is written to absolve the vendor of any kind of financial responsibility should you be dissatisfied with any changes made to the product. It's not a statement of IP protection.

    The question of "fair use" to the best of my knowledge, is one that has not been legally tested in regards to this type of circumstance. When monies are not being exchanged, it makes the waters pretty murky. If a company like Blizzard does end up taking a private, fan run, *free* server to court, they are rolling the dice big time. I don't believe companies are too eager to test the waters here, it could easily bite them in the ass.

    My comments are purely conjecture, with a dash of real world experience.

    I once developed a product, produced and sold it for over four years in my native country of Canada. Then one day out of the blue came a cease and desist letter from a big American corporation. I believe that they were full of crap and I had a case but I had to make a big decision. Do I fight them? They have pretty deep pockets, I had made quite a decent amount of coin from the product over the four + years. I decided that instead of risking loosing that money in escalating legal fees, I just decided to call it a day with the product and sold the production line to a company in Poland.

    By the way, a cigarette lighter or any product for that matter, is an intellectual property.
    You're comparing EULA to the theft of an IP, they aren't even the same thing. These people aren't just breaking a EULA, they are stealing an IP and those partaking in it are doing the same thing. You agreed to play WoW even if it changes. And the box says it may change. So you bought the box, before even agreeing, knowing it could change. 

    Stealing someone's IP, guess what side the judge is going to side on. That is the debate here.

    And a lighter maybe an IP, but it doesn't come with a EULA, I would just go to the next one. No need to agree to any terms for lighting a lighter.
    Well you guys make this EULA thing sound really really lucrative. Us manufacturer's may have to jump on board $$$

    There is no reason why physical everyday products can't have EULA's just like the software industry and it sure as hell wouldn't be for your benefit.

    If you use my Taco sauce on a Hamburger I'll fucking sue your ass ;)

    Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.

    Good thing Judges are usually more reasonable than the rest of us.
    You know this argument isn't about the EULA, you are just bringing these stupid scenarios into the mix because the argument is about theft of IP and IP related products.

    No sane company is going to start popping out EULA's for hot sauce, lighters, or any other thing like that. Because they know that other companies won't and they'll just get all the business. Then the company that went full retard will lose business. 

    This debate is about the theft of an IP. No matter how you rationalize it, think it, or say it, this is theft of an IP. Nost or whatever they are now do not own the rights to any WoW characters, items, races, names, or anything else. They are using it without the permission of Blizzard (until Blizzard comes out and says otherwise), that right there is theft.
    People bring up Eula's and statements on a box. "Your experience may change" is protecting them from having to give you a refund. Nothing more complicated than that.

    As far as IP theft, I don't believe its so cut and dried. There would be precedence if it was. Taking a fan run, non-profit server to court is a very risky prospect for someone like Blizzard. If it wasn't scary for them, we wouldn't be debating about it.

    We'd be pointing to actual rulings.

    This isn't a new issue that just popped up, it's been around for quite some time now. In Wow's case, Its been over a decade since I've heard about private WoW servers. 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
    Deekins said:
    laserit said:
    People bring up Eula's and statements on a box. "Your experience may change" is protecting them from having to give you a refund. Nothing more complicated than that.

    As far as IP theft, I don't believe its so cut and dried. There would be precedence if it was. Taking a fan run, non-profit server to court is a very risky prospect for someone like Blizzard. If it wasn't scary for them, we wouldn't be debating about it.

    We'd be pointing to actual rulings.

    This isn't a new issue that just popped up, it's been around for quite some time now. In Wow's case, Its been over a decade since I've heard about private WoW servers. 
    I've received refunds on MMO's. Taken the box back and got a refund. Putting the game may change on the box is letting you know it won't stay the same. It is a forewarning. Some people just can't accept the fact the game has changed.

    No the problem right now is it isn't up and running. Once it is, Blizzard can take them to court. They stole their IP, there is no needing of proof since it is all over the internet what they plan to do. You can't just jack peoples crap and expect it to be ok. 

    As far as I know Blizzard has never taken anyone to court for running a private server. But there is always a first. And I would bet on the side of Blizzard.
    Must be a nice store where you buy your boxed games from. I can return them for a refund only if the game hasn't been opened.

    And your absolutely correct it is a forewarning that the game may change and that absolves them from having to give refunds for that reason. Which incidentally is a rock solid reason to want a refund, having that warning is the right and proper thing to have on the box and that is why it's there. 

    Blizzard can take them to court right now, Nostalius is already guilty of *your* clear cut case of IP theft.  Why don't they? Why are they not taking anyone of the multitude of private servers to court?

    Most likely it's because it ain't a slam dunk and a ruling in favor of a fan run non-profit private server would be absolutley disastrous.

    It's a big risk, It's not about being Mr Nice Guy.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,383
     Now, I'd bet the farm that every single person who's posted in this thread has knowingly broken the law at some point in their lives. 
    I didn't inhale ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited December 2016
    laserit said:

    Must be a nice store where you buy your boxed games from. I can return them for a refund only if the game hasn't been opened.

    And your absolutely correct it is a forewarning that the game may change and that absolves them from having to give refunds for that reason. Which incidentally is a rock solid reason to want a refund, having that warning is the right and proper thing to have on the box and that is why it's there. 

    Blizzard can take them to court right now, Nostalius is already guilty of *your* clear cut case of IP theft.  Why don't they? Why are they not taking anyone of the multitude of private servers to court?

    Most likely it's because it ain't a slam dunk and a ruling in favor of a fan run non-profit private server would be absolutley disastrous.

    It's a big risk, It's not about being Mr Nice Guy.
    If you're not referring to servers that are outside of their reach... Which even with those I'm sure there's constant research on the subject. You can't really say what is and what is not going on behind the scenes. Blizzard acting against private servers has been an ongoing process for quite a while, and those are just the stories that make major headlines. They seem to move on a case by case basis, which probably starts very quietly as they move to collect evidence and other pertinent information, so they can move forward with a plan of action. That's what legal teams/divisions do...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • sedatedkarmasedatedkarma Member UncommonPosts: 181
    GladDog said:
    What blows me away is that people say they can't wait to get back into the 'Vanilla community.' The Vanilla community is why I quit this game. The Vanilla community was still there when BC released, and their 'wonderfulness' is why I will NEVER play any version of WoW ever, ever again.

    That said, I really think that Blizzard needs to do what they can to appease their fan base. There is a strong community that wants Vanilla servers, and Blizz should give them to the players. Problem solved. Won't need pirate servers if there is an official one. I have always thought that game publishers should give players what they want; within reason of course! An item that takes up one inv slot and and slays everything within 50 meters, including players, with one shot is not reasonable. Making early version servers that require virtually no support (and that players are willing to pay a reduced rate sub for) is reasonable.
    Very fair statement.  

    I'm honestly shocked with the regards towards the vanilla community (the one that just plays the game and loves it, not the one tcurrently fighting for it, me included with my hot-headedness).  During Vanilla and BC I had so many postive encounters with strangers, it overshadowed any bad experiences I had.  It wasn't until Wotlk when the dynamic of how groups were formed and a further stress on -endgame only mentality- did I run into so many abrasive players.  As most of us know it got worse with each iteration of the game afterward.

    Amazingly enough, my recent experiences with these communities in game have reminded my why I love group play, MMO's, RPG's.  I'm reminded how much I enjoy the journey, not the destination.  I don't mind scrapping a toon after a year to start a new because it truly was about a journey and experience with others.


    Is anyone honestly surprised though?  Blizzard created a game that touched millions and changed it.  If Monopoly was suddenly taken off the shelves and changed, human nature finds a way to replace the beloved past time with any possible recreation of it.
    Happily playing Vanilla and BC WoW, again, since September 2016.

  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,079
    Sovrath said:
    GladDog said:
     Making early version servers that require virtually no support (and that players are willing to pay a reduced rate sub for) is reasonable.
    I wonder how true this part is though.

    It costs money to run servers and for players to connect to them.

    Blizzard will want things to run well as it's their company name on the line.

    To that end, company's budget everything as well as forecast costs, profits, etc.

    Just because the "product" the public servers put out don't cost much doesn't mean that's how Blizzard wants their product to be represented. My guess is that this costs more than players realize because they are thinking of it only in the context of "all you need is the server software and we're good".
    Of course there are costs.  Bandwidth still costs money, although it is a lot cheaper than it used to be.

    The big deal is they don't need to develop content.  All they need is maintenance and people to handle trouble tickets.  So instead of a team of 200 designing content while a team of 50 squashes bugs and a team of 100 handling support requests, a team of ten could do the whole thing.  These are vanilla servers, they do not want updates.  With no new content, there are no new bugs to squash, just a few leftovers they never tackled in the first place.

    So the 200 are not needed.  The 50 can become 7 at first, then reducing size as time goes on.  The 100 could be 12.  Since the game stays static, there will be fewer and fewer support requests as old an new players learn/remember the ins and outs.  So 12 may settle to 5.

    So the servers go to maintenance mode, with 10 people supporting the whole thing.  A sub fee of $9.99 is probably plenty, $6.99 if you also sub to the main game.

    And they could offer a 14 day unlimited free trial.  The Vanilla servers become the trial servers, and a player that wants to play the main game can bring their trial player to the 'real' servers with a level and gear boost, maybe +25 levels and standard blue gear.  And a player that 'vanillas' to the level cap and gets some good gear may be able to transfer over at level 85 with lowest level purples.  They still have lots to gain and they are in the level range where they can play with the 'real' guilds.

    It is hard for me to see how Blizzard could lose in this deal.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


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