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Does anyone here, who is a developer, actually think this game is not a scam or will succeed?

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    CrazKanuk said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Good points.

    I think one of Roberts' problems is that he doesn't want accountability despite knowing it is good for him. He doesn't like anyone telling him "No! You need to stop and focus on x,y,z".
    When he talks about previous games he always sounds so salty that the financiers weren't willing to give him all the time and money he needed to realise his "vision".
    Personally I think we'll see the same with SC/Sq42, they'll be ok games with some great bits to them but he will complain that people were too impatient or not willing to support him after 8 years of ship selling or whatever.

    ,,,,, In addition to NEVER letting a software developer talk to people, ,,,
    that is the worst and in many ways funniest advice on software development i have ever heard. I have been on projects like that and they are almost always a cluster fucked disaster costing millions more then they should

    I think you misunderstand it. First, it's generally meant to be funny. Secondly, it's rooted in SOME truth. However, there must always be SOME level of communication and, obviously, software developers can talk among themselves or other technical sorts. HOWEVER!!! I'm talking about "people" as in others who are "normal". If I had to get literal about the rule, I would say NEVER let a developer talk to ANYONE in the marketing department. 
    gotcha...fair point.

    and yes some teams needs a talented person to be a bridge between business and technical

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,766
    edited November 2016
    Blizzard closed their doors on an MMO they were making for years. Only God knows for sure.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    edited November 2016
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Chris needs to be honest with himself and his backers. I don't think he has been at all and this is the issue. There is more money into CIS now than in say, 'Fantastic Beast and Where to Find Them' movie production.  

    The other elephant in the room is, continually changing the scope of ANY PROJECT, dooms them to failure. You cannot change the finish line and then expect to cross it. This I have seen being on many projects. Money doesn't even enter into the picture as the people on the project gets disillusioned and leave. One is supposed to set hard and fast goals and stick to them.

    Even GW2, had lofty goals, which weren't realistic. They admitted that, when the game came out, and some of them haven't even been introduced, nor will they ever be put in. Companies make decisions to get a product out not to continually change the goals. This is why it seems to be a scam or at least, a clueless developer.


  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.Member UncommonPosts: 999
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    botrytis said:
    The other elephant in the room is, continually changing the scope of ANY PROJECT, dooms them to failure. 
    No it does not. Why? Because they have the continuous funding. Simply because they can afford to do it.

    It's not even the scope, one of the BIGGEST investments CIG does that reflects itself on the delays and such, is massive amount of R&D. And they do it because they can, as the constant research made into pushing things as far as they can, that is when the idea/promise/goal has to reflect itself into the development reality.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    edited November 2016
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.
    I wonder over the course of lets say 4 years how many of your gaming predictions actually came true.

    somethign to think about

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.

    I think that their biggest obstacle at this point is time. I don't know where you get this infinite money notion from, but they don't have it. If anything they are losing money monthly now. Either way, I think that the biggest technical challenges are resolved, if we are to believe what they say. So I think it's a matter of actually getting shit done now. Maybe I'm missing something substantial though. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    ither way, I think that the biggest technical challenges are resolved, if we are to believe what they say. So I think it's a matter of actually getting shit done now. Maybe I'm missing something substantial though. 
    Was on Discord on a discussion with a dev about just that. As the fundamental and blocking tech work is finishing up, the challenge is to make it all working well together. After past that it's when we should see the push into content creation; and the delivery of features that are obviously not the same difficulty level (time-wise) to pull off than the tech that supports them.


    We'll hear a lot on network/netcode though; if plans to test the "sharded" system are on 2017, its release might very well be +2018. But it shouldn't be much of a blocker to the development of features and content.
  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.Member UncommonPosts: 999
    edited November 2016
    MaxBacon said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ither way, I think that the biggest technical challenges are resolved, if we are to believe what they say. So I think it's a matter of actually getting shit done now. Maybe I'm missing something substantial though. 
    Was on Discord on a discussion with a dev about just that. As the fundamental and blocking tech work is finishing up, the challenge is to make it all working well together. After past that it's when we should see the push into content creation; and the delivery of features that are obviously not the same difficulty level (time-wise) to pull off than the tech that supports them.

    One example given is Item 2.0, backend for a lot of stuff that goes from network to physics, especially affecting ships (modular damage, components, etc...); one piece of tech that until finished it's blocking all that of it depends.
    Wrapping up the massive technical undertaking of constructing production pipelines and remastering the crytek engine opens up new revenue streams of packaging and selling the tech.
    edit - I should also mention the wicked procedural generation software and ai systems being created as well.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Saxx0n said:
    MaxBacon said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    ither way, I think that the biggest technical challenges are resolved, if we are to believe what they say. So I think it's a matter of actually getting shit done now. Maybe I'm missing something substantial though. 
    Was on Discord on a discussion with a dev about just that. As the fundamental and blocking tech work is finishing up, the challenge is to make it all working well together. After past that it's when we should see the push into content creation; and the delivery of features that are obviously not the same difficulty level (time-wise) to pull off than the tech that supports them.

    One example given is Item 2.0, backend for a lot of stuff that goes from network to physics, especially affecting ships (modular damage, components, etc...); one piece of tech that until finished it's blocking all that of it depends.
    Wrapping up the massive technical undertaking of constructing production pipelines and remastering the crytek engine opens up new revenue streams of packaging and selling the tech.
    which ironically if anyone want to question the business model of CR they often completely overlook the crytek story.

    I am not suggesting the crytek story is bad business, immoral or scammish but I am saying for those who want to attack it just seemed to me to be a big huge gynomous bulls-eye button for trolls that they dont even notice

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.
    when you have been paid for 10 years as a software developer full tim, are Microsoft .Net certified, know SQL, ASP.Net and Shareppoint and you have worked with a Microsoft Partner with the title of 'Software Developer' you kinda feel like you have that entitlement

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    CrazKanuk said:
    If you're really interested in reading something objective I would encourage you to take a look at this
    http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/

    That article is much more rooted in reality, in my opinion. 
    Good read, thanks for the link.

    It would be very interesting to read an updated and current view by Mr Hicks.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.

    Lol, I agree. In my case, I can't function without my monochrome monitor. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.
    Hey...

    I can code in NC ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    SEANMCAD said:
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.
    ..... and Shareppoint ....

    Oooooo, so sorry about that. I had to do some integration work with Sharepoint using their client object model and it was a nightmare. If I had the server installed it would have been peachy, but without it, I'd rather not go back and touch that house of cards. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    Saxx0n said:
    Wrapping up the massive technical undertaking of constructing production pipelines and remastering the crytek engine opens up new revenue streams of packaging and selling the tech.
    edit - I should also mention the wicked procedural generation software and ai systems being created as well.
    Haven't thought of that; and indeed some of biggest pushes here have been on quite ambitious pieces of tech.

    Though I heard some drama a lot that CIG is working for free for code that Crytek is getting from them and that is Crytek who is going to benefit from all the custom modifications CIG made to the engine?

    Do they have any license with them that allows to modify and resell?
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    CrazKanuk said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Dude everyone here thinks they are developers.
    ..... and Shareppoint ....

    Oooooo, so sorry about that. I had to do some integration work with Sharepoint using their client object model and it was a nightmare. If I had the server installed it would have been peachy, but without it, I'd rather not go back and touch that house of cards. 
    yes! very much a nightmare. totally agreed. I wanted to learn Sharepoint until I actually did then I wanted to rollback...ha!

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    edited November 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.
    I wonder over the course of lets say 4 years how many of your gaming predictions actually came true.

    somethign to think about

    About 80% accurate, not only with games but with companies, etc. I have worked in start-ups all my career and can see when failure is up and coming. One person DOES NOT make a project succeed, no matter what his reputation is - it is a team effort and it is realistic expectations and set in stone objectives that help a project succeed. Changing objectives, making them bigger and grander, while a project is going forward is a recipe for failure. On the other hand scaling back, means in this case, turning off the fans and backers but can get a possible project out. You can't have it both ways and that is what Chris seems to be doing.


    I don't know why people have such blind faith in one person? I don't get it.


  • LienhartLienhart Member UncommonPosts: 662
    botrytis said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.
    I wonder over the course of lets say 4 years how many of your gaming predictions actually came true.

    somethign to think about

    About 80% accurate. I have worked in start ups all my care and can see when failure is up and coming. One person DOES NOT make a project to succeed, no matter what his reputation is.
    One person can easily make a project fail though.

    With regards to infinite money, I'd argue that would cause failure too. Risks, priority, and deadlines are needed to make any project (software or not) succeed. Without it the project would literally go on forever.
    I live to go faster...or die trying.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    botrytis said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.
    I wonder over the course of lets say 4 years how many of your gaming predictions actually came true.

    somethign to think about

    About 80% accurate. I have worked in start ups all my career and can see when failure is up and coming. One person DOES NOT make a project succeed, no matter what his reputation is. It is realistic expectations and set in stone objectives that help. Changing objectives, making them bigger and grander, while a project is going forward is a recipe for failure. On the other hand scaling back, means in this case, turning off the fans and backers but can get a possible project out. You can't have it both ways and that is what Chris seems to be doing.
    just to be clear I wasnt asking for your record of predictions within the start up industry but rather within the gaming industry.

    never the less, 'start ups' pre-Kickstarter is RADICALLY different then it is today.

    Speaking for myself I dont have a prediction on this project but in addition I dont think its a scam. I do think however CR has a habit of getting in over his head but so did Bush and he got elected TWICE

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Lienhart said:
    botrytis said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    botrytis said:
    Saxx0n said:
    I am a developer and I do not think it is a scam and I believe it will succeed and set a new bar for the gaming industry. This title and company will go down in the books as the strongest foundation to further game development using crowd funding methods in the future.

    I put my money where my mouth is and have chosen to not "buy ships" but, support CIG to the tune of 650.00

    I do not. I have seen too many projects fail this way. This is why so many 'start up' companies fail - no realistic expectations. With infinite money, you don't need it, think Tesla here, very deep pockets but that was of the person who started the project, not from investors. Eventually Chris will lose investors and crash - I predict it here.
    I wonder over the course of lets say 4 years how many of your gaming predictions actually came true.

    somethign to think about

    About 80% accurate. I have worked in start ups all my care and can see when failure is up and coming. One person DOES NOT make a project to succeed, no matter what his reputation is.
    One person can easily make a project fail though.

    With regards to infinite money, I'd argue that would cause failure too. Risks, priority, and deadlines are needed to make any project (software or not) succeed. Without it the project would literally go on forever.
    'CAN'

    and 

    'LIKELY' 

    are also different frames of reference

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    For me the failure or not due those reasons is rather silly.

    What and they even admitted this on the Kotatu articles when mistakes are made and management fails; they cost money and time, the big example is Star Marine. As time is money on development, they did counter it.

    What usually takes companies and projects down, is or a strict budget / deadlines that they don't have much margin to deal with. That is not the case on Star Citizen, both on funding and deadlines where it depends on the pressure from the backers that are overall okay with it; as on their side with continuing to deliver updates.

    So on SC, the margin that you will not really have as an Indie or with publishers that won't really give you more money or more time (usually leads to rushed releases as we all know), is less of a problem here.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    MaxBacon said:
    For me the failure or not due those reasons is rather silly.

    What and they even admitted this on the Kotatu articles when mistakes are made and management fails; they cost money and time, the big example is Star Marine. As time is money on development, they did counter it.

    What usually takes companies and projects down, is or a strict budget / deadlines that they don't have much margin to deal with. That is not the case on Star Citizen, both on funding and deadlines where it depends on the pressure from the backers that are overall okay with it; as on their side with continuing to deliver updates.

    So on SC, the margin that you will not have as an Indie, or with publishers that won't really give you more money or more time (usually leads to rushed releases as we all know), is less of a problem here.
    seems lagit.

    one thing I have noticed about game forum site posters is many of them are unhealthy addicted to timelines and promises. its like a simulator game for them 'find a promise that you can call broken'

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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