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Does anyone here, who is a developer, actually think this game is not a scam or will succeed?

LienhartLienhart Member UncommonPosts: 662
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/06/star-citizen-fidelity-of-failure/

I am very curious as to how the hell this game still has followers. I was excited at one point...until it became very obvious that there were some massive development issues. Then Google showed me this post and BAM everything (sadly) made a ton of sense.
I live to go faster...or die trying.
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Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I am a developer and I can tell you the skills of development would give you literally zero insight as to if the business model is a scam or not.
    Scot

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
    - Abraham Lincoln

    "A fool and his money are soon parted."
    - Thomas Tusser

    All I need to say on this front.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    Of course, it is a scam.

    The game has followers because we are all cultists, delusional and such. The game is bad and awful, it's going to fail and we are all going to commit suicide then (not my words btw).

    ps: nice touch with No Man's Sky shown as one of the games that would destroy SC. Oups!
  • LienhartLienhart Member UncommonPosts: 662
    edited November 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    I am a developer and I can tell you the skills of development would give you literally zero insight as to if the business model is a scam or not.
    Every developer has been on sinking ship projects. Hell, my 2nd project upon graduation was a sinking ship where the PM got fired. But I saw it coming a year before hand and tried to lessen the blow my switching to SCRUM.

    I've also done it outside of work in groups before. If you're a developer you HAVE to know what I'm talking about and Star Citizen reeks of scope creep issues that aren't being managed. This will always sink a project.
    I live to go faster...or die trying.
  • 03cobradude03cobradude Member UncommonPosts: 47
    I know of someone who works there, it will get done. It's just that he want's things to be super polished maybe more polished than it really needs to be for an early release. I have faith it will get done when it gets done, I'm not worried about it. Considering the mmo I worked on took 7 years to make and was scrapped twice, yeah these things can take time.
  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    edited November 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    I am a developer and I can tell you the skills of development would give you literally zero insight as to if the business model is a scam or not.
    I agree. The folks working on it at the ground level wouldn't know what was happening in the big office.

    Only CR himself, or maybe his wife and brother, really know if it is a scam or not. My question would be: When did it become a "scam"? Pre-Kickstarter? When $xxx amount of money was raised?

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I am a developer and I can tell you the skills of development would give you literally zero insight as to if the business model is a scam or not.
    Every developer has been on sinking ship projects. Hell, my 2nd project upon graduation was a sinking ship where the PM got fired. But I saw it coming a year before hand and tried to lessen the blow my switching to SCRUM.

    I've also done it outside of work in groups before. If you're a developer you HAVE to know what I'm talking about and Star Citizen reeks of scope creep issues that aren't being managed. This will always sink a project.
    I have 10 years experience in software development and I have 13 years in computer aided drafting.

    I have been on zero 'sinking ships' on the development side (so much for 'everyone') and I have been LITERALLY on a sinking ship project (as in things sank) on the computer aided side and with a total of 23 years of experience I can tell you that you can not always tell what the business is doing or its effect, even less so when you do not have access to the company (as in a developer OUTSIDE of the project)

    period end of story


    SCOPE CREEP and SCAM

    are not the same thing they are friggin light years apart from each other

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I think after reading the response of the OP his first step is to understand that 'scope creep' is not 'scam'

    holy molly!

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.
    That is exactly my view on SC to a tee.

    Oh and do we all realize that we are posting in a DS sponsored thread? Scary isn't it!

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    Not a matter of IF, yet a matter of WHEN.

    I don't think anyone can deny the direction and the push being made on the development front is towards the promises and expectations of the Backers. In terms of scope, tech, detail and overall quality of what they are creating.

    Side of that... /jumps out
  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    MaxBacon said:
    Not a matter of IF, yet a matter of WHEN.

    I don't think anyone can deny the direction and the push being made on the development front is towards the promises and expectations of the Backers.
    TBPO I'm not sure if enough push is being made. THIS backer is not happy with the feature creep at all. THIS backer did not get a choice though. I have to believe that it will get made at some point in the future.

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,680
    botrytis said:
    "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
    - Abraham Lincoln

    "A fool and his money are soon parted."
    - Thomas Tusser

    All I need to say on this front.
    They could do this for years. Just offer up some half ass playable stuff and keep saying it still needs work and more funding.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Hariken said:
    botrytis said:
    "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
    - Abraham Lincoln

    "A fool and his money are soon parted."
    - Thomas Tusser

    All I need to say on this front.
    They could do this for years. Just offer up some half ass playable stuff and keep saying it still needs work and more funding.
    there is a lot of things that 'could' happen.

    like Enron or AIG for example

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    edited November 2016
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think after reading the response of the OP his first step is to understand that 'scope creep' is not 'scam'

    holy molly!

    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]

    EDIT TO YOUR EDIT: Yes you did. The reason this game did not come out in 2012-14 at least is because the original KS project scope was increased because of all the money rolling in. Since then the reason is because of incompetence on CR and crew part.

    DS crying "SCAM!" is because he thinks they should have made the original KS project years ago. He feels they are "scamming" folks because they are still getting money for the game.

    Big difference.
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    I need to google the sand one... first time I hear that one. :expressionless:

    .edit, oh I see. Also safe search was off, I SEEN THINGS!!!!!!!

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Lienhart said:
    bartoni33 said:
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think after reading the response of the OP his first step is to understand that 'scope creep' is not 'scam'

    holy molly!

    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    I dont think anyone in business is going to let you remotely close to information in which you could tell if a scam is going on if you can not distinguish the difference between 'scam' and 'scope creep' to be honest
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Good points.

    I think one of Roberts' problems is that he doesn't want accountability despite knowing it is good for him. He doesn't like anyone telling him "No! You need to stop and focus on x,y,z".
    When he talks about previous games he always sounds so salty that the financiers weren't willing to give him all the time and money he needed to realise his "vision".
    Personally I think we'll see the same with SC/Sq42, they'll be ok games with some great bits to them but he will complain that people were too impatient or not willing to support him after 8 years of ship selling or whatever.
  • LienhartLienhart Member UncommonPosts: 662
    edited November 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    Lienhart said:
    bartoni33 said:
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think after reading the response of the OP his first step is to understand that 'scope creep' is not 'scam'

    holy molly!

    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    I dont think anyone in business is going to let you remotely close to information in which you could tell if a scam is going on if you can not distinguish the difference between 'scam' and 'scope creep' to be honest
    Might No 9 had similar issues to a lesser degree. I was originally going to back the project until I saw they wanted to simultaneously release on all platforms with a tiny development team. While MM9 delivered a product, it was a steaming pile of shit compared to previous Mega Man games.

    The article I posted in the first post is where I got most of the Star Citizen information from. While scope creep is not scam, it can lead to a failed project or severe under-delivery if unmanaged. Both cases, would be a scam at worst and a bait and switch at best. 

    Don't get me wrong, if the game comes (and isn't horrible) out I'll jump onto it immediately.
    Post edited by Vaross on
    I live to go faster...or die trying.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,650
    edited November 2016
    If you want accurate information, height both sides of a story. Not the one-sided Bias.

    And when you state most of what you know on Star Citizen is from that article...

    I'd recommend you the actual extensive Kotaku UK articles on Star Citizen recently for actual information; rather than the rants of DS, as many times debunked they were. ;)

    Then you can find by yourself why the game has continues support and following. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Lienhart said:
    bartoni33 said:
    Lienhart said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think after reading the response of the OP his first step is to understand that 'scope creep' is not 'scam'

    holy molly!

    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]
    I dont think anyone in business is going to let you remotely close to information in which you could tell if a scam is going on if you can not distinguish the difference between 'scam' and 'scope creep' to be honest
    Might No 9 had similar issues to a lesser degree. I was originally going to back the project until I saw they wanted to simultaneously release on all platforms with a tiny development team. While MM9 delivered a product, it was a steaming pile of shit compared to previous Mega Man games.

    The article I posted in the first post is where I got most of the Star Citizen information from. While scope creep is not scam, it can lead to a failed project or severe under-delivery if unmanaged. Both cases, would be a scam at worst and a bait and switch at best. 

    Don't get me wrong, if the game comes (and isn't horrible) out I'll jump onto it immediately.
    dude!

    scope creep is not scam and its highly misleading, disingenuous and rude to use them interchangeable.

    and nobody is suggesting scope creep can not cause failure. but the word scam is a whole didnt ballgame.

    please correct your OP if you want to talk about scope creep

    here is another hint, you will get a LOT more allies if you focus on scope creep at the explict exclusion of using the word 'scam' one of them being me
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    I would ask the OP the exact opposite, is there any software developer who actually believes this is a scam. Any time that I see someone claiming to be a software developer who is so quickly convinced by a single article, from a source that is obviously slanted, makes me question their ability to think and reason logically, which is sort of a core component in problem solving, which is a core job requirement for developers. I can only imagine how long I would have a job if I looked up one stackoverflow post that said something could be done, without any further reference, and then took that to my boss as justification for killing a project. That's not to say it isn't right, but I would hope someone would do more research than that, especially when a project was hanging in the balance. 

    There were some serious development issues. However, I don't believe that there are any remaining knowledge gaps that would be deemed as troubling or insurmountable. If you're really interested in reading something objective I would encourage you to take a look at this
    http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/

    That article is much more rooted in reality, in my opinion. 

    Finally, there is this idea of a "scam" that you present. There are two major problems with that idea. First, why would they even continue at this point? They've put in a good effort. They could cut ties and walk away. Instead, they seem intent on continuing to run with a "scam" that is hemorrhaging money (spending like $2.5 million a month on salaries and making less than $1 million). Secondly, the real money is in shipping the game itself. Granted, it's a coin flip, but if you look at crowdfunded games between their campaign and their Steam Owners there is generally a LARGE uptick. We're talking in the order of tens. So if SC has a million people now, if they can ship a great game they could be at 10 million players. From there, they could even get more aggressive with their monetization. Sell planets, space stations, solar systems, etc. Sky's the limit!! So is it a scam? Not likely. Even from a business perspective, it's smarter to just make the product. And from a scammers perspective, they should have gotten out a year ago or more. Blame it on DS and walk away with an extra $30 million in your pocket. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Good points.

    I think one of Roberts' problems is that he doesn't want accountability despite knowing it is good for him. He doesn't like anyone telling him "No! You need to stop and focus on x,y,z".
    When he talks about previous games he always sounds so salty that the financiers weren't willing to give him all the time and money he needed to realise his "vision".
    Personally I think we'll see the same with SC/Sq42, they'll be ok games with some great bits to them but he will complain that people were too impatient or not willing to support him after 8 years of ship selling or whatever.

    Lol, I agree in part. Publishers are a problem and we'll hear people complain about them (and their lack of innovation) quite extensively, which is a GREAT reason to support SC. However, I have some pretty concrete rules regarding software development. In addition to NEVER letting a software developer talk to people, you should NEVER have someone steering the ship who is in love with the project. I would hope they are passionate about it, but love clouds reason. That's where I think that giving Eric more power did SC a lot of good. 
    Gdemami

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    CrazKanuk said:
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Good points.

    I think one of Roberts' problems is that he doesn't want accountability despite knowing it is good for him. He doesn't like anyone telling him "No! You need to stop and focus on x,y,z".
    When he talks about previous games he always sounds so salty that the financiers weren't willing to give him all the time and money he needed to realise his "vision".
    Personally I think we'll see the same with SC/Sq42, they'll be ok games with some great bits to them but he will complain that people were too impatient or not willing to support him after 8 years of ship selling or whatever.

    ,,,,, In addition to NEVER letting a software developer talk to people, ,,,
    that is the worst and in many ways funniest advice on software development i have ever heard. I have been on projects like that and they are almost always a cluster fucked disaster costing millions more then they should

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    SEANMCAD said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Talonsin said:
    What do you mean by "scam"?  If you mean they will never deliver a product then you are already incorrect since there is a currently playable game.  The playable version is certainly not all they said it was but there is a game you can actually play.

    I think Chris honestly wants to make the greatest game ever, his legacy could certainly use it since after the original wing commander games he has had no notable accomplishments.  The problem is he has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is a poor communicator and his vision continues to change and as a result, CIG continues to use the word "refactor" over and over again which is a fancy way to say that something needs to be redone because Chris either did not communicate/manage properly or he once again changed his vision.

    As long as people continue to throw money at him and let him run with no control, this cycle will continue.  It is not a scam, it is just poor business management plain and simple.  Eventually we will get a game with a good portion of the things he sold us on.  When that will be is anyone's guess.

    Good points.

    I think one of Roberts' problems is that he doesn't want accountability despite knowing it is good for him. He doesn't like anyone telling him "No! You need to stop and focus on x,y,z".
    When he talks about previous games he always sounds so salty that the financiers weren't willing to give him all the time and money he needed to realise his "vision".
    Personally I think we'll see the same with SC/Sq42, they'll be ok games with some great bits to them but he will complain that people were too impatient or not willing to support him after 8 years of ship selling or whatever.

    ,,,,, In addition to NEVER letting a software developer talk to people, ,,,
    that is the worst and in many ways funniest advice on software development i have ever heard. I have been on projects like that and they are almost always a cluster fucked disaster costing millions more then they should

    I think you misunderstand it. First, it's generally meant to be funny. Secondly, it's rooted in SOME truth. However, there must always be SOME level of communication and, obviously, software developers can talk among themselves or other technical sorts. HOWEVER!!! I'm talking about "people" as in others who are "normal". If I had to get literal about the rule, I would say NEVER let a developer talk to ANYONE in the marketing department. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

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