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Most fun class ever... in any MMORPG, cast your votes..

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    I think the hardest aspect for unique classes is the conditioned belief of balance between classes.  I hope to see an mmo someday that takes the ideas of past mmos (class diversity) and creates content that actual requires more than just 3 roles.  I don't want them to abandon the trinity.  I would just like to see it expanded on.

    I would love to see them expand the roles but I really don't believe they want to spend the resources on something they have work at to balance.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,508
    edited November 2016
    Are classes today worse or just catering to a crowd that wants different things.

    I will say classes are typically not as diverse which may be worse. However you also  are not locked into a class that is as rigid as past  ones, which is  imo better. Personally I like being kind of fluid. Eq bards were awesome for that. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    edited November 2016
    I was just discussing this situation with a friend of mine. His viewpoint was an interesting one. He claimed that back in the day the players fit roles to the skillsets, whereas today the developers fit the skillsets to the roles. I believe there is a lot of truth to that, however I think that's just one aspect of a larger problem. I've noticed several people have discussed that this result is from the lack of adherence to the trinity. I think its the opposite. Too great of an empowerment to the trinity and an empowerment of tanks, and to some extent healers, specifically. Typically, we think of the trinity as Tank - Healer - DPS, when in truth, its roles are more akin to Control - Mitigation - Damage. Tanks embody two out of three of these roles. They mitigate incoming damage (drastically in modern mmos), they also lock down enemy aggro (basically the ultimate CC). Healers are capable of full mitigation (and in modern mmos can often do so completely and without limit). And now all that's left is damage. Healers and tanks have to be able to do some damage as well (otherwise they can't fight by themselves), so the DPS output of pure DPS classes has to fall between slightly better than tank/healers to absurdly high. Since there would be design issues in absurdly high DPS, there is little room left in which to define a DPS class, as the rest of the roles have been completely subsumed by the Tank and Healer. FFXIV is a great example of this, where the tank and healer carry the group (IIRC most content has been beaten with just WAR and WHM), and the DPS are just the filler.

    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    Post edited by Kaisen_Dexx on
  • VestigeGamerVestigeGamer Member UncommonPosts: 518
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    VG

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    Actually the orriginal trinity in EQ and DAoC was tank, healer, cc....

    it was wow that removed the CC class and made dps classes a requirement, instead of simplifying classroles even more i think the answer definately is in a change to the trinnity where everyone can dps but also has a main role like tank, healer, cc, buffer, debuffef

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • chocolate-mousechocolate-mouse Member UncommonPosts: 73
    edited December 2016

    Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.

  • DaemonweaverDaemonweaver Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Necromancer GWs1, awesome fun and with the way GWs skills were set up, just so many different ways to play. Aaaaaaah the good old days of Ecto farming duo Underworld With SS necro and a 55 monk. For me no MMO has come remotely close to the diversity and choice of builds and play styles.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,129
    Are classes today worse or just catering to a crowd that wants different things.

    I will say classes are typically not as diverse which may be worse. However you also  are not locked into a class that is as rigid as past  ones, which is  imo better. Personally I like being kind of fluid. Eq bards were awesome for that. 
    In my opinion, class diversity has been slowly getting worse over the years. 

    However, in the early days of MMOs, even though the class diversity was there, the combat lacked depth in a lot of early games. For example, something like SWG had amazing diversity, yet the combat was pretty shallow (the depth was in character customisation rather than actual combat). 

    I think the sweet spot was 2005-2010 ish. 

    The games that came out in this era still had a decent amount of class diversity but the combat had advanced enough to have a decent amount of depth. Post 2010 (or perhaps earlier), games started simplifying again so the diversity was lost and the recent action-combat trend has removed nearly all depth from combat. 
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Rogue in DDO.  Picking locks never meant more than in that game.



  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    Actually the orriginal trinity in EQ and DAoC was tank, healer, cc....

    it was wow that removed the CC class and made dps classes a requirement, instead of simplifying classroles even more i think the answer definately is in a change to the trinnity where everyone can dps but also has a main role like tank, healer, cc, buffer, debuffef

    Support classes were great.  CC is fun imo.  I also love classes that debuff. 

    Players complaining about CC really used to annoy me.  Can't take the heat don't play.  Same with people who don't like class based systems.  Don't like it don't play it.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Very well said!  It seems like a generational difference.  Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes.  We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now.  This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them.  It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me.  Stupid snowflakes!

    My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule.  One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. 
    Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.

    Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.


    I posted this video (2 HR)  a while back.  It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed. 

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.


    One of old EQ friends just loves his Enchanter.   He hates newer mmoRPGs because things like lack of CC and how dumbed down it has become.  To quote him:  "games are so dumbed down that people think actually think they have evolved".
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    waynejr2 said:
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Very well said!  It seems like a generational difference.  Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes.  We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now.  This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them.  It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me.  Stupid snowflakes!

    My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule.  One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. 
    Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.

    Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.


    I posted this video (2 HR)  a while back.  It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed. 

    Well, playing D&D long before mmorpg's even that game with strict rules had multi classing... allowing for a fighter/mage or rogue/priest class...   however with all the drawbacks not many people where willing to take the disadvantages of multiclassing... 

    the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1..  FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • HarikenHariken Member RarePosts: 2,222
    edited December 2016
    centkin said:
    This is actually a major problem with modern games.  The classes themselves are no longer fun.  Balanced, yes, but fun not so much.
    I have to say i'm really digging the class switching system in Twin Saga. Its just so dam fun to play. One character can play all classes and you have to battle for last few to unlock them.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    edited December 2016
    waynejr2 said:
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Very well said!  It seems like a generational difference.  Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes.  We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now.  This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them.  It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me.  Stupid snowflakes!

    My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule.  One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. 
    Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.

    Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.


    I posted this video (2 HR)  a while back.  It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed. 

    Well, playing D&D long before mmorpg's even that game with strict rules had multi classing... allowing for a fighter/mage or rogue/priest class...   however with all the drawbacks not many people where willing to take the disadvantages of multiclassing... 

    the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1..  FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game

    That is where the BS started in a way.  I want an elf as it has all the extras but has the downside that raise dead won't work on them.  So things happened:  Like suddenly lots of resurrections by DMs or worse  "A good GM never kills a character".  So why have downsides if you don't enforce them?

    Look at magic-users and intelligence.  You spell limits and chance to learn a spell were important but people tossed those rules out.  If you character couldn't learn sleep, it wasn't the end of the world and it gave your character character!

    I had a first edition bard. It was OP as hell.

    Most of the old groups I played with in the 70s and 80s did it old school.  It was the newer younger players who hated the downsides.  I believe it was because my core group were wargamers and board gamers before dnd existed.   You accepted things like that.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    waynejr2 said:

    Original EQ.... Enchanter. So much fun dropping a dagger by noobie log in Neriak then cast minor illusion. Then watch people try to pick me up. XD I miss crowd control classes. Ha we almost had to kill our tank once when the beholders charmed him and had him attack us. The good old days.


    One of old EQ friends just loves his Enchanter.   He hates newer mmoRPGs because things like lack of CC and how dumbed down it has become.  To quote him:  "games are so dumbed down that people think actually think they have evolved".

    In PvE crowd controll is a perfect tool, sadly the reason it got nurfed down is PvP....    fun thing tough, everyones favorite PvP game GW2 has a huge amount of CC but no true CC class...

    where they went weong is removing CC grom the genre instead of adapting it for pvp

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,633
    edited December 2016
    Necromancer EQ1
    Bard EQ1
    Enchanter EQ1
    Minstrel DAoC
    Valewalker DAoC
    Paladin WoW (before the loss of talent tree's and skills being dumbed down for the masses)
    Counselor SWToR
    Trooper SWToR
    Guardian GW2  
    Enchanter GW2



  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    waynejr2 said:
    waynejr2 said:
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Very well said!  It seems like a generational difference.  Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes.  We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now.  This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them.  It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me.  Stupid snowflakes!

    My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule.  One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. 
    Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.

    Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.


    I posted this video (2 HR)  a while back.  It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed. 

    Well, playing D&D long before mmorpg's even that game with strict rules had multi classing... allowing for a fighter/mage or rogue/priest class...   however with all the drawbacks not many people where willing to take the disadvantages of multiclassing... 

    the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1..  FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game

    That is where the BS started in a way.  I want an elf as it has all the extras but has the downside that raise dead won't work on them.  So things happened:  Like suddenly lots of resurrections by DMs or worse  "A good GM never kills a character".  So why have downsides if you don't enforce them?

    Look at magic-users and intelligence.  You spell limits and chance to learn a spell were important but people tossed those rules out.  If you character couldn't learn sleep, it wasn't the end of the world and it gave your character character!

    I had a first edition bard. It was OP as hell.

    Most of the old groups I played with in the 70s and 80s did it old school.  It was the newer younger players who hated the downsides.  I believe it was because my core group were wargamers and board gamers before dnd existed.   You accepted things like that.

    Splitting this into two posts due to limitations:

    Strict adherence to classes is exactly what broke them in the long term. So, if I'm a wizard who doesn't have max int, I can't learn every spell. And that would be fine if the trade-offs were worth it, or added something to a character. In all cases I can think of back then (I grew up on AD&D) they weren't, because characters were too defined by their class instead of their character. If you were a wizard you could not wear armor, you only had one attack per round and all you had access to were low damage weapons.

    So, it came down to, if George The Wizard was less intellectual, but had more strength, he wasn't more well-rounded, he was just "gimped", because he was still only able to use a staff, still made weak and inefficient attacks, couldn't wear armor, and now he couldn't learn as many spells or be as potent with them. Because of this, people built around max potential. As this happened Tank Roles, Healer Roles, CC Roles and DPS Roles naturally evolved out of it, since certain classes were better able to CC, Mitigate, etc. just based on their class skills/armor capacity/melee capacity. What is even more unfortunate, is that strict adherence to character tropes actually lowered the roleplay value of a character, since all characters of that class were fundamental copies of each other. George The Wizard who grew up as Son of a Master Swordsman knew nothing about swords under those rules, even if in his backstory, his father gave him basic training (explaining his slightly higher str).
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Part 2:
    Mostly in response to previous posters: As I mentioned in an above post, I proposed removing the Tank/Healer roles, since No One should be able to completely fulfill these on demand. The concept was designed to empower skill sets. Now you are free to make meaningful design choices when designing your game. The idea is: You take a druid on an adventure because of the advantages his druid magic has, not because he can be your "heal bitch". You take a warrior on an adventure, not so he can have every enemy hit him instead of someone else, but because his martial skills give him and his group greater advantage when dealing with martial foes. The wizard chooses to wear heavy armor for the added physical protection it adds, despite now he has less maximum carrying capacity for bandages/travel gear/spell components, as well as a lot less gold.

    Since no one can tank, everyone has to at certain times, and party play comes from actually supporting your group, using the skills given to your "kit", as well as preparing for the adventure beforehand. You play as an Archer and notice the Warrior is getting overwhelmed, so you drop your bow, and pull out your melee weapon to intervene and start "tanking" to relieve pressure on the Warrior . Realizing what the archer intends to do, the druid entangles both enemies with vines allowing the warrior to escape and the archer to engage. The warrior then bandages his wounds using the healing kits he had prepared beforehand, and once recovered enough returns to the fray so the archer can disengage before he is overwhelmed.

    Ultimately the argument against classes is less, "I want it all". Its more along the lines "Classes are too restrictive to natural roleplay and character development", since to accommodate every potential character, you have to create a nigh infinite amount of classes.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 15,896
    Believe it or not,the best class developer Square Enix,proved you wrong.Too many of these devs are amateurs at class design,never thinking outside the box.
    An example a Monk in FFXI could not only deal tons of dps but coudl actually be a tank and could also heal itself,all that and i did not even include the sub class which it could use ANY class and get a secondary fill on the other roles.

    The BlueMage,a class that learned from creatures/mobs in the game,so the class had a huge arsenal of choices to fulfill roles.The class could tank could heal,could dps and could even CC,so an extremely versatile class without getting into sub class choices again.
    Point being too many have been playing terrible game designs,either lacking in a sub class choice,FORCED to alt alt alt alt...yuck sickening OR simply making WEAK class designs that caused the  ruckus over "Trinity" is bad.Yeah it's bad if your a bad developer,ahem...right Arena.net?

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Wizardry said:
    Believe it or not,the best class developer Square Enix,proved you wrong.Too many of these devs are amateurs at class design,never thinking outside the box.
    An example a Monk in FFXI could not only deal tons of dps but coudl actually be a tank and could also heal itself,all that and i did not even include the sub class which it could use ANY class and get a secondary fill on the other roles.

    The BlueMage,a class that learned from creatures/mobs in the game,so the class had a huge arsenal of choices to fulfill roles.The class could tank could heal,could dps and could even CC,so an extremely versatile class without getting into sub class choices again.
    Point being too many have been playing terrible game designs,either lacking in a sub class choice,FORCED to alt alt alt alt...yuck sickening OR simply making WEAK class designs that caused the  ruckus over "Trinity" is bad.Yeah it's bad if your a bad developer,ahem...right Arena.net?

    Was this directed at me? If so, could you point out where specifically you disagree with me, as I may not be articulating myself properly. After reading it in the entirety, I felt like you were agreeing with me. By downplaying the class dominance on tanking via subclassing (essentially removing tank/healer from class definitions), FF11 did allow for more "tanks", though there were still certainly preferred tanks. I much preferred a Ninja over a Monk tanking for me when I played (RDM and SMN back in the day). However, this did not hold as true for healers, since the MNK/WHM wasn't used to heal for parties.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    waynejr2 said:
    waynejr2 said:
    In an ideal setting, one potential solution would be to weaken (or remove) the dedicated tank and healer roles, and spread these abilities out to the dps as a whole - in essence give the skillsets (Classes) more power instead of the roles. I'd really like to see an MMO where everyone "tanks" at certain times depending upon the armor they choose to wear (with its own penalties and bonuses), and mitigation and control is spread among all of the group members, so that in essence every member of the group is supporting the group as a whole at different times in different ways by briefly taking on each role in ways defined by their skillset. Of course I doubt this would have mass appeal, since it requires more than a casual glance at the screen once in awhile, as well as a drastic re-envisioning of the system as a whole.
    I disagree.  The differences between classes is about choices and balance.  A Wizard spends their time learning arcane magic and how to manipulate it.  Give them armor and shields and there is no need for martial fighters, who spend their time with weapons and armor instead of study of the arcane.

    Everyone should be able to deal damage.  DPS should not be a "trinity pillar", yet it is.  WoW really messed things up when they started keeping track of damage per second.  After this, combat became all about "the damage."

    For variety, MMORPGs have always had "Hybrid" classes that combine two roles less well than a character who specializes.  How does a fighter heal by swinging their weapon?  What mechanic id this?

    GW2 does do some nice synergy things, like a Ranger shooting arrows through an Elementalist's wall of fire to create fire arrows, but a Guardian's "heal attacks" make very little sense to me.

    To me, Role Playing (the last part of MMORPG) is all about differences.  Just because "Joe" can do something doesn't mean my character has to do the same.  Most "old school" players accept this, many coming from tabletop RPGs where players played with others.  But new players, many coming from single player video games, expect to do everything on their own or with NPC helpers.

    When I played old EQ, CoH, or WoW and shook my head at that "TAUNT" button, I imagined future MMORPGs figuring out how to manage players and positioning, not what actually happened.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    Very well said!  It seems like a generational difference.  Very old pnp dnder here and I love classes.  We did accept it but then a new group of people came into gaming that wanted it all now.  This being able to switch classes idea is just catering to them.  It feels like we went from players having fun together to me me me.  Stupid snowflakes!

    My old vanilla/tbc guild had a no damage meter rule.  One warning then kicked from the raid if you did it again. 
    Get rid of the numbers and let players figure it out the old fashion way.

    Bring back CC and Debuffing and the rest for Gygax sake.


    I posted this video (2 HR)  a while back.  It brought back to me all the old feelings about when we played back then and how it is has changed. 

    Well, playing D&D long before mmorpg's even that game with strict rules had multi classing... allowing for a fighter/mage or rogue/priest class...   however with all the drawbacks not many people where willing to take the disadvantages of multiclassing... 

    the only games with good multi classing where D&D online, the orriginal GW1..  FF multiclassing didnt yield the wished for results to me in both versions of the game

    That is where the BS started in a way.  I want an elf as it has all the extras but has the downside that raise dead won't work on them.  So things happened:  Like suddenly lots of resurrections by DMs or worse  "A good GM never kills a character".  So why have downsides if you don't enforce them?

    Look at magic-users and intelligence.  You spell limits and chance to learn a spell were important but people tossed those rules out.  If you character couldn't learn sleep, it wasn't the end of the world and it gave your character character!

    I had a first edition bard. It was OP as hell.

    Most of the old groups I played with in the 70s and 80s did it old school.  It was the newer younger players who hated the downsides.  I believe it was because my core group were wargamers and board gamers before dnd existed.   You accepted things like that.

    Well in the end it all depends on the DM and the immersion, if a D&D game comes a numbers game then you have lost me... its mostly about the immersion into the world and the stories and about roleplaying...and what ruleset you use does not matter much to me..  i vallue the rulesets based on the freedom it gives players to create a character based on the things that happen in a roleplay session...  Imagine that a 3rd level warrior gets immersed in the church of Ankh trough the story he plays, why shouldnt he be able to become a Priest from that point on?   


    And characters not dying is only a trade off of a bad DM, to spice up the game, people need to know that every fault could essentially kill them...and that does not happen witouth characters dying from time to time.. 

    With our core D&D group in the 90's we allways had our own houserules... like multiclassing and duall classing for all characters.... but also resurection could only be done at holy places within 24 hours of a characters death... combined with the fact that resurection scrolls and other items where extremely rare... and many many more of these little rules....


    In the end D&D or any other pen and paper game is not about the rules, but all about the roleplaying and the immersion in the characters and the world...   As said before, people thinking in numbers where gamekillers for me, there needed to be a healthy ballance between the character sheet and the actions of the characters...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • NeokiNaomiNeokiNaomi Member UncommonPosts: 351
    tie between two classes from the same game ironically. Enforcer and Engineer and Anarchy Online. It was an awesome feeling "Mongo'ing" while tanking raid bosses for an hour getting complete heals while 3 stories tall from the Mongo and Challenger buffs while swinging a gigantic Enhanced Queen Blade or later on the Shadowland variant swords. And then for the Engineer, it is a soft spot as it was my first MMO class and I remember working towards wanting the infamous Slayerdroid, the climb in levels and then finally obtaining all the buffs from other people needed to cast it at the same, felt amazing.

    TwitchTV: iNeoki

  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,400
    This thread shows the problem with modern gamers not games. Rift has as in depth a system as you could hope to find. literally thousands upon thousands of possible combinations per class. yet all the 'hardcore' players migrate to the same 2 or 3 builds per class with the exact same skills and even give 'rotation' guides on exactly when and how to cast those skills they all share. And the worst part is if you dont follow these or worse you misclick and screw up your DPS rotation by a few hundred youre deemed worthless.

    WoW started it and Rift is now perpetuating it.

    Thats why games dont even bother with depth or options anymore these developers know people will just migrate to th flavor of the month set up or builds so why make interesting options?

    99% of the old school classes or set up would never ever get played today by most people because they werent good enough.

    You can go play Rift and make maybe 50 'fun' builds but most of them would be seen as vastly inferior to the best options and clearly not as good as a more optimized build that wasnt quite 'perfect'.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,624
    rodarin said:
    This thread shows the problem with modern gamers not games. Rift has as in depth a system as you could hope to find. literally thousands upon thousands of possible combinations per class. yet all the 'hardcore' players migrate to the same 2 or 3 builds per class with the exact same skills and even give 'rotation' guides on exactly when and how to cast those skills they all share. And the worst part is if you dont follow these or worse you misclick and screw up your DPS rotation by a few hundred youre deemed worthless.

    WoW started it and Rift is now perpetuating it.

    Thats why games dont even bother with depth or options anymore these developers know people will just migrate to th flavor of the month set up or builds so why make interesting options?

    99% of the old school classes or set up would never ever get played today by most people because they werent good enough.

    You can go play Rift and make maybe 50 'fun' builds but most of them would be seen as vastly inferior to the best options and clearly not as good as a more optimized build that wasnt quite 'perfect'.
    Actually, i agree with you... Meta builds are killing the game... But thats not only the players, thats also by design.  If you build content that requires different tactics and different setups to perform best in different encounters... which actually makes the players realise, there is no best way to build your character... then the problem is overcome...   But i agree with you, a game like GW2 is currently killed by the meta builds..

    The winner is that company creates a game where players finally realise they can build their own character as they like.... In my book this can be done by a huge huge amount of little choices in character builds... freedom....  and  a system that slowly debuffs spells and abilities used to much, so whenever there is a meta build or must have overpowered spells the game regulates this by its own...This is not hard to do, thats just a single mathematical formula, backed up by a buildin monitoring system that resistrates all actions taken by players...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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