Unions are the only way to fight thieving employers like Donald Trump. Deal with it. Because the law has decided "Right to Work" is the way to go and it screws the employees. Employers can do anything they like and provided the employer doesn't violate the constitution or a pregnant woman, they can do whatever they like. Workers have no protections anymore. Any protections have been slowly removed.
also don't voice actors usually work through some kind of agency setup .. where the agent is taking a cut as well?
Yes, they do use agents though there are sites where people can submit their work and get jobs that way.
an agent can get up to 20% thought that is a bit high.
its all a business cost at that point though right? 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing ( i know this isnt the issue) just something else to consider when everyone is all like "how can those greedy pricks be wanting more than 900 bucks for 4 measely hours work" sort of thing
I can understand their desire for a residual just don't think it could be a blanket thing .. perhaps if you had a famous voice actor they could contract individually and make a demand like that .. imagine being the voice actor for a major character in GTA V .. sold 60 mil copies for 60 bucks each .. cost approx 256 mil to make .. thats about 3 billion dollars or so .. that guy get paid one very miniscule lump sum and hit the bricks?
video games are eclipsing movies, music, and books combined as the most successful form of entertainment and the actors who provide the "voices" are paid like extras in hollywood .. seems a bit off
change is inevitable in my mind
Why should the voice actors get residuals when the rest of the team that makes the game possible not get that? And it's not realistic to provide that for the entire team. The typical reward, in a good company, are bonuses based on success. That's for the employees of the firm. Contractors don't, and shouldn't, get any of that because they take no risks in the endeavor of the company.
This isn't quite the same as movie and music and all it will do is push prices up. They're over-valuing their position and contribution to the project.
Unions can be valuable when ensuring equal safe conditions and compensation for all workers. That's not happening here. I hope the publishers stand their ground. The last thing I want to do is pay $5 - $10 extra per game so that an already overpaid person gets more money.
well, it's just not the same type of job.
In the arts a lot of times actors/singers will take huge pay cuts or do work for no money because they need the exposure. However, if they are working with musicians (let's say a musical or opera) the musicians absolutely get paid.
It's not fair but that's how it shakes down.
edit: I should add that this is on smaller scale productions, obviously not broadway or something of the same level.
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I feel unionized voice actors are the 2nd least important element to making a video game. Can a video game be made without programmers? No. The average starting salary is $40k. Can a video game be made without artists? No, otherwise it would be a computer game. The average starting salary is $33k. Can a video game be made without Quality Insurance? Probably, but not as good. The average starting salary is under $30k. Then there are operational staff you would typically find in any company. Usually paid between $24k~$50k annually. These positions are far more important to making a video game today than a unionized voice actor. Yet a starting voice actor is making $900 for a 4 hour session. Most of the better ones work 100+ titles a year and their sessions pay a higher rate. Yet a talented producer could probably pick out 10 people from the general staff and complete out the voices needed for the video game.
The problem here is the union. Why does the voice actor deserve a cut of final game revenues? If they do deserve more, why are they even in the union and not freelancing for a higher pay out? Heck they can negotiate better terms with the developer if they are a talent that will enhance the game.
The whole concept of residuals or any type of institutionalized bonus system should be a risk/reward system. I can see trying to negotiate a share of the profits if you're also willing to work for less.
If I was negotiating for the coalition of companies I'd put the ball back in their court: a 10% pay increase and no residuals or a 10% pay decrease + residuals.
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The whole concept of residuals or any type of institutionalized bonus system should be a risk/reward system. I can see trying to negotiate a share of the profits if you're also willing to work for less.
If I was negotiating for the coalition of companies I'd put the ball back in their court: a 10% pay increase and no residuals or a 10% pay decrease + residuals.
You are on to something. Instead of just giving them one solid contract option, just give them a choice between the 2 with the percentages varying based on the project.
As far as I'm concerned, we can do without 'professional' voice acting, or even voice acting in general.
Part of the issue is that there are people who are doing voice acting, that aren't professionals, or members of the union, there was a similar issue with regard to in game music where musical scores were created specifically for a game, but it was done outside of the 'official' unionised heavily regulated environment. This whole issue is probably more about control, than anything else.
As far as I'm concerned, we can do without 'professional' voice acting, or even voice acting in general.
Part of the issue is that there are people who are doing voice acting, that aren't professionals, or members of the union, there was a similar issue with regard to in game music where musical scores were created specifically for a game, but it was done outside of the 'official' unionised heavily regulated environment. This whole issue is probably more about control, than anything else.
Sounds about right. Now we will see game prices jacked up to 80$ because they will be forced to hire union workers at higher pay.
Unions had a valid place in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when workers were seriously exploited and there weren't many / any laws the protect them.
Now? I think unions have gone way past their expected mandate.
I personally have never belonged to a union and never want to. Strike action is the biggest reason - I just don't think there is ever a valid reason to strike. There are plenty of laws in place to protect workers health, rights, fair wages etc.
For these voice actors, as I understand it the pay is already quite good (if inconsistent), however, it is the working conditions that are poor. If they have to do a lot of shouting, it obviously puts a lot of strain on the voice and can cause physical harm, yet employers aren't always taking this into consideration in the same way that physical actors would get extra training / pay for that sort of work.
I disagree .. what law is in place to insure that workers get fair wages? the only law I can think of that holds a company responsible for paying their employees fairly is the Minimum Wage laws .. and they are way way below the poverty level
without unions do you think that corporations and companies would just not exploit their workers however they can? some might now .. but many many would .. when NAFTA passed look how many corporations moved to mexico just to escape from any kind of oversight or specifically to flee the cost of unionized workers and up their profit margins exploiting cheap desperate labor
come now don't blame the union .. yes there are plenty of "bad" union stories
but I imagine we are all looking at this story with a very skewed perspective of what is actually going on .. just saying .. I've been in contract negotiations as part of a union process and they aren't putting in front of their members because in a negotiation you don't run back to your members with any offer they throw at you .. the negotiations representatives keep negotiating until their is a resolution which meets the desires of the membership in the first place .. the members might have voted already and said we are not accepting anything shy of X or nothing that doesn't have this or that stipulation etc .. putting that bit about how they are refusing to put it in front of the members is just bullying tactics trying to pressure the union with a public news outlet
wow .. this might be my longest post ever lol .. sorry for the text wall
I guess things are different here in the UK.
Between the minimum wage (£7.50ish ph) and the free market, most jobs end up with fair wages. Everyone, naturally, complains about being paid less than their worth but that will always be the case. If we improved wages for those at the lower end, it would increase inflation so cost of living would rise so they end up in the same relative position.
Same is true with voice acting. If it pays a lot, then less companies can afford to do it so less jobs, so competition goes up for remaining jobs which means price lowers....over time, all wages end up balancing out at the right level (assuming free market that is).
In the UK, we also have endless health and safety laws which protect all workers.
The only time I think unions are worth it is if the unions are really small and specific (e.g. just representing the workers of a single factory upon which most of the town is reliant) or in providing legal backup. In the UK, everything is so close together that getting another job is relatively easy, but I understand that in the US there are plenty of places where pretty much the whole town is reliant upon a single large employer. That gives the employer more power over their employees and such power sometimes leads to abuse.
But, again, that is what the legal profession is there for. If you're being abused, or unfairly dismissed, or harassed....the law is there to protect you. Only problem is paying for the lawyers, which is where unions come in, but if your case is good enough it is possible to find pro-bono lawyers as they'll get all their money back from the employer when they win.
I'm a small business owner of a non-union shop with 32 employees. If they ever voted for a union, I would close up shop and ride into the sunset
But unions are a necessary evil and I know more than a few companies that deserve them.
Consider I work for 650/day based on a 10 hr Day and I work with explosives with the occasional gunfight just for flavor, yeah not a bad gig at all. I understand that I do not know the amount of work that goes into doing a voice over, but let's be real here, it's talking.
As far as unions go, they were a necessary evil I agree with that, but with fair labor laws in place, they are more of a racket as @DMKano said, IMO.
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I won't begrudge a group of professionals with a specific talent getting the best deal they can. If you could truly pull 10 random people off of the street or from the office and do all your VA, guess what the game developers would do. And maybe they will take that gamble, now that it's at the pay or replace stage. They could even be correct, if they want to take the chance to find out.
And the idea that there's some 21st-century magic that prevents employers from exploiting labor if given the opportunity - come on. Especially video game companies, paragons of employee luxury.
I'm a small business owner of a non-union shop with 32 employees. If they ever voted for a union, I would close up shop and ride into the sunset
But unions are a necessary evil and I know more than a few companies that deserve them.
Consider I work for 650/day based on a 10 hr Day and I work with explosives with the occasional gunfight just for flavor, yeah not a bad gig at all. I understand that I do not know the amount of work that goes into doing a voice over, but let's be real here, it's talking.
As far as unions go, they were a necessary evil I agree with that, but with fair labor laws in place, they are more of a racket as @DMKano said, IMO.
The Entertainment Business is in a world all unto itself, so I'll just leave that dispute at that.
As for unions and business:
IMHO It's all about balance. It's no good when the pendulum swings too far one way, or the other.
Strike action is the biggest reason - I just don't think there is ever a valid reason to strike. There are plenty of laws in place to protect workers health, rights, fair wages etc.
My wife works for a local county gov't office, and the Teamsters are currently trying to organize the workers in her shop.
Some of the shenanigans include the county ordering several cleaning chemicals without checking for harmful interaction, and when two were used together a number of employees began bleeding profusely through the nose and had to leave for several days. (no compensation was offered for their distress outside of workman's comp medical payments)
There were several other dangerous situations including having workers alone when they really need a back-up for safety reasons, and it's pretty clear employers don't always have their employee's best interests at heart.
So Unions might still be a necessary evil, just not sure voice actors suffer in this manner. This dispute appears to be largely financial for service where getting steady income might be challenging.
most of what you describe are federal violations (assuming you are in the US) where OSHA and a good lawyer(who would probably be doing back flips and slam dunk motions seeing this) should have been contacted. your wife shouldn't have to join a union and pay dues to collect damages.
The union in this case isn't advocating any new safety laws and seems to be just trying to collect on employee ignorance. Chances are some of the teamsters caught wind of clear violations of the CFR and came swarming in like vultures.
The problem with modern unions is they are fiscal entities and not traditional advocate groups for workers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the financials of the voice actors...... they are contractors and agree to the contacts they take. If they want more money they have the right to decline the contract and ask for more.....but they also have to deal with the consequences(i assume the industry is competitive like other forms of contract work) and may have to decide on a different line of work if they cant support the lively hood they desire.
I don't want others to have something I don't have
I want to keep buying cheap games
I will repeat things that people say without knowing if its true or not
Unions are still relevant, they can be a good counterpart when your employer want to keep you at the lowest possible pay, they can make sure that you get paid for overtime, they can help you when your employer break work laws.
When I worked part-time at a place the union had already negotiated my pay which included vacation, they had negotiated that I was ensured at my work, including my travel to/from work. They even helped me as I got injured. All of those things they had negotiated with my employer which I benefited from without even being part of the union.
Voice actors have as much right to be part of a union as someone working at heavy industries and stars in the nfl and nba. Its not like game industry will shift voice acting jobs to india or china and its not going to make games more expensive.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Fire the lot and hire new ones. If we can do it with Air Traffic Controllers, and they were critical, video game voice actors will be EZ to swap out.
I doubt this is really the voice actors themselves, they rarely have a choice when it comes to being a member of the union, as it often means the difference between being able to work, and not, so they are likely just doing what they are told to do.
Fire the lot and hire new ones. If we can do it with Air Traffic Controllers, and they were critical, video game voice actors will be EZ to swap out.
I doubt this is really the voice actors themselves, they rarely have a choice when it comes to being a member of the union, as it often means the difference between being able to work, and not, so they are likely just doing what they are told to do.
If it's a union issue, they have themselves to blame. I would move my voice work to a 'Right to Work State.' Criminal that people are forced to join them.
Comments
In the arts a lot of times actors/singers will take huge pay cuts or do work for no money because they need the exposure. However, if they are working with musicians (let's say a musical or opera) the musicians absolutely get paid.
It's not fair but that's how it shakes down.
edit: I should add that this is on smaller scale productions, obviously not broadway or something of the same level.
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The problem here is the union. Why does the voice actor deserve a cut of final game revenues? If they do deserve more, why are they even in the union and not freelancing for a higher pay out? Heck they can negotiate better terms with the developer if they are a talent that will enhance the game.
If I was negotiating for the coalition of companies I'd put the ball back in their court: a 10% pay increase and no residuals or a 10% pay decrease + residuals.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Now as far as SAG goes... Arn´t they known to "pat with a armour fist* so to speak. Some serious strongarm tactics
This have been a good conversation
As far as I'm concerned, we can do without 'professional' voice acting, or even voice acting in general.
Between the minimum wage (£7.50ish ph) and the free market, most jobs end up with fair wages. Everyone, naturally, complains about being paid less than their worth but that will always be the case. If we improved wages for those at the lower end, it would increase inflation so cost of living would rise so they end up in the same relative position.
Same is true with voice acting. If it pays a lot, then less companies can afford to do it so less jobs, so competition goes up for remaining jobs which means price lowers....over time, all wages end up balancing out at the right level (assuming free market that is).
In the UK, we also have endless health and safety laws which protect all workers.
The only time I think unions are worth it is if the unions are really small and specific (e.g. just representing the workers of a single factory upon which most of the town is reliant) or in providing legal backup. In the UK, everything is so close together that getting another job is relatively easy, but I understand that in the US there are plenty of places where pretty much the whole town is reliant upon a single large employer. That gives the employer more power over their employees and such power sometimes leads to abuse.
But, again, that is what the legal profession is there for. If you're being abused, or unfairly dismissed, or harassed....the law is there to protect you. Only problem is paying for the lawyers, which is where unions come in, but if your case is good enough it is possible to find pro-bono lawyers as they'll get all their money back from the employer when they win.
As far as unions go, they were a necessary evil I agree with that, but with fair labor laws in place, they are more of a racket as @DMKano said, IMO.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
And the idea that there's some 21st-century magic that prevents employers from exploiting labor if given the opportunity - come on. Especially video game companies, paragons of employee luxury.
Avatars are people too
As for unions and business:
IMHO It's all about balance. It's no good when the pendulum swings too far one way, or the other.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The union in this case isn't advocating any new safety laws and seems to be just trying to collect on employee ignorance. Chances are some of the teamsters caught wind of clear violations of the CFR and came swarming in like vultures.
The problem with modern unions is they are fiscal entities and not traditional advocate groups for workers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the financials of the voice actors...... they are contractors and agree to the contacts they take. If they want more money they have the right to decline the contract and ask for more.....but they also have to deal with the consequences(i assume the industry is competitive like other forms of contract work) and may have to decide on a different line of work if they cant support the lively hood they desire.
Unions are still relevant, they can be a good counterpart when your employer want to keep you at the lowest possible pay, they can make sure that you get paid for overtime, they can help you when your employer break work laws.
When I worked part-time at a place the union had already negotiated my pay which included vacation, they had negotiated that I was ensured at my work, including my travel to/from work. They even helped me as I got injured. All of those things they had negotiated with my employer which I benefited from without even being part of the union.
Voice actors have as much right to be part of a union as someone working at heavy industries and stars in the nfl and nba. Its not like game industry will shift voice acting jobs to india or china and its not going to make games more expensive.
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