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Blizzard is very fortunate

Kane72Kane72 Member UncommonPosts: 211
Having played Legion for a month and got bored and didn't like the way progression is tied in to forcing you to do things you may not be in the mood for e.g. Mythics, I thought I it was time to unsub before they took a payment.

Then it dawned on me how fortunate for Blizzard that people are still willing to pay a sub for a game that should clearly be Buy to Play (based on what you actually get for your money). They charge full price for each expac and really and truly, that should be enough of a cost for what you get.  The patches are not worthy of a sub or price (and happen all too infrequently) and like many games, should just be considered as ongoing story/development to give people a reason to keep playing (and having the opportunity to buy stuff from the WoW shop) until the next expac.

There is a lot of value to be gained out there from other Buy to Play games, but I guess all the time Blizzard have people paying subs, it's a model they will stick with.  I'd carry on playing WoW if the subs dropped as I could dip in and out as required, but paying a sub makes me feel obliged to play but I'm bored of logging in regularly now so made the decision to stop.

Few games would get away with a sub model these days, but all the while people are willing to pay, they will charge you for it.

I know I said blizzard are fortunate, but yes, you make your own fortune and I am not questioning people's desire to want to pay a sub so they can play the game, which they must be enjoying. Perhaps it's like a drug for some, who can't let go, who knows?
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Comments

  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,280
    The only b2p or f2p game I wont sub when returning is gw2. The sub benefits are too good!

    As for WoW I also unsubbed, videocard broke send it for warranty by the time it went back, I didnt want to play anymore. Felt like im too mucb left behind with ilvl and artifect power. Few weeks ago ilvl was 847. Farmed so hard in mythic dungeons. Now im casual lvling in eso.

  • DXSinsDXSins Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Wow tokens have pretty much made the game B2P for alot of people tho... more so on US server as its half the price to what we EU have to pay and that is still easy to get by just blowing over old cata raids each week for gold on a few characters. Once you have followers 850, you get regular gold mission for 700-900g + 750g bonus and your combat ally can get equipment for like +35g per world quest you do.

    Personally i know ive got enough gold to keep the game B2P until i get bored and move on again and i started on a fresh server and characters coming back 2 weeks before legion launched.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,016
    Keep in mind, a monthly sub is about 50 cents a day, most people who pay a sub can afford this so its not really a concern.

    In fact, at $15 a month it doesn't even matter if I play at all sometimes, and I've paid subs even when not actually playing.

    In EVE I pay annually so comes out to about $10.50 per month per account.

    Fact is, if a game offers an experience unmatched by others people will pay for it.

    That said I'd guess a large number of WOW players on sub for a few months until they finish the latest content, then move on as you did.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    B2P... yea cause most of the current B2P are really that good and you still end up spending money in a cash shop...

    At least with WOW... you aren't spending money in a cash shop to have cool stuff in game. Sure there are a few mounts and pets on the cash shop... but those are really just reskins. 

    Rather spend $15 a month then have a company nickle and dime my wallet...
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,606
    I think WoW works fine with a sub and paid expansions. There's quite a few people who are playing it still obviously so the model is still working. They aren't fortunate, they just provide a product people want. If it went B2P or F2P people would be all over anything they did in the cash shop to make money. I'm fine with it being sub because when I play it, I don't have anything in the cash shop making me feel like I'm lagging behind, or inconvenienced and wanting to buy an item to fix it.
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 3,085
    edited October 2016
    but if wow wasnt p2p .....there will be less patchs ....and the patch cycle will be 6 months instead of 4-5 , and will be have no content instead of tweeter and selfie cam ! oh wait....

    and expansions will be released every 2 years with a 1 year of no content ....ehhmm.... ;)

    ok ok u win wow is better as b2p !
  • unrealaz1unrealaz1 Member UncommonPosts: 17
    I'm sorry but the sub is for the amount of content the game has and the new content they are adding. Since the game has 10x the stuff from other games (dungeons, areas, quests) it's fair you pay a price.
  • iNeokiiNeoki Member UncommonPosts: 353
    First time in all my years since Vanilla WoW I didn't even last more than 2 weeks. I think I've finally grown out of WoW, sad because I usually enjoyed each expansion for at least a month or two but this time I feel robbed and cheated a bit. The same old story as last expansion where they say everything will change and things are going back to the older style of WoW, I saw none of it.

    Shame really, but here's to hoping there's a greater opportunity for newer games to step up and fill the void so many of us are feeling. It's almost a repeat of gaming history of the lull in time most of us older gamers experienced while UO/EQ/AO/AC/DAOC were dying out and WoW swooped in to grab us all up. Maybe that will happen again, time will tell and I will remain hopeful for Pantheon, Star Citizen and Dual Universe until then.

    TwitchTV: iNeoki

  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,706
    I kinda think Blizzard has gotten a little lazy in development since they are the top P2P MMO. I bought Legion but it's only been a month and I'm pretty bored of it already... I've already done all the content and don't care to repeat it hundreds of times to gamble for titanforges. $15 is pretty cheap for a month's entertainment, but that's just it... I'm not really entertained by it anymore. I think I'd rather buy DLC for ESO or something. WoD wasn't worth $410 and that's about what it cost to keep a sub active for 2 years plus box charge, and I don't think Legion will be worth it either. I'll probably cancel my sub and come back later when they release new content.
  • JermzyJermzy Member UncommonPosts: 211
    Honestly, i don't mean this in a snide or mean way, but if you are that worried about $15 a month then you probably should be looking into f2p games.  You would spend more than that just going to see a movie once a month.  For me, the game offers pretty much everything I could ask for from an MMO, even though i find the pvp aspect lacking.  That being said, i am not so sure i would have the same attitude about it if it was not for the group of folks i have played with over the years.  Especially with Draenor.  The sub would have zero impact on my decision to play or not play.  Having a blast in Legion though.
    Haroo!
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,461
    So basically you are saying "I'm not happy that I have to do dungeons in WoW"...
    Err, seriously ? The game has been about that since beta.

    I'm glad to pay a subscription for a quality game personally, and I'm having great fun doing those harder and harder dungeons.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 4,848
    So basically you are saying "I'm not happy that I have to do dungeons in WoW"...
    Err, seriously ? The game has been about that since beta.

    I'm glad to pay a subscription for a quality game personally, and I'm having great fun doing those harder and harder dungeons.
    I can't speak for the OP but I didn't enjoy the manual group finder, as a DPS.  I ran a couple of mythics, purely to finish quests and that was it.  I enjoyed leveling and hitting ilvl 845 from casual play.  LFR represents a 10 ilvl downgrade so I'm letting my current sub end (it was bought with a token) as I'm not interested in manual group finders for dungeons/raids or scheduling time for raids like i did in Vanilla and BC.

    I have a  token in my inv I can activate at any time and I'll return eventually.  I've moved back to LOTRO to see all the content I missed and likely will return to SWTOR after that.

    WOW kind of messed stuff up with titanforging and class hall armor ilvls.  They didn't really come up with a way to keep people that like using the automatic group finder tool incentivized.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,200
    Kane72 said:


    Then it dawned on me how fortunate for Blizzard that people are still willing to pay a sub for a game that should clearly be Buy to Play (based on what you actually get for your money). They charge full price for each expac and really and truly, that should be enough of a cost for what you get.  The patches are not worthy of a sub or price (and happen all too infrequently) and like many games, should just be considered as ongoing story/development to give people a reason to keep playing (and having the opportunity to buy stuff from the WoW shop) until the next expac.


    Remember, buy to pay games have cash shops. The money still needs to come in. Someone is just paying more than someone else.


  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,461
    I do dungeons with guildies, way more fun than with randoms where you have a high chance to end with kiddies and idiots. That has also always been an important element in WoW.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Kyleran said:
    Keep in mind, a monthly sub is about 50 cents a day, most people who pay a sub can afford this so its not really a concern.

    In fact, at $15 a month it doesn't even matter if I play at all sometimes, and I've paid subs even when not actually playing.

    In EVE I pay annually so comes out to about $10.50 per month per account.


    I dont think some people can get this through their heads.  A simple lunch at a fast food place costs me about $8 and only fills me up for a few hours.  If I go to a sit-down lunch it costs me close to $20.  When you look at the cost of an MMO and the entertainment value you get, it is simply amazing. 

    If I only play 8 hours a week, I get 32 hours of enjoyment for a measly $15, that comes out to 47 cents per hour.  Where the heck else are you going to find that?  Considering some of these people who complain about sub fees live at their parents house and play 40+ hours a week, it comes out to pennies an hour.  Sadly it seems those people are the most vocal about it.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,461
    edited October 2016
    Talonsin said:
    Kyleran said:
    Keep in mind, a monthly sub is about 50 cents a day, most people who pay a sub can afford this so its not really a concern.

    In fact, at $15 a month it doesn't even matter if I play at all sometimes, and I've paid subs even when not actually playing.

    In EVE I pay annually so comes out to about $10.50 per month per account.


    I dont think some people can get this through their heads.  A simple lunch at a fast food place costs me about $8 and only fills me up for a few hours.  If I go to a sit-down lunch it costs me close to $20.  When you look at the cost of an MMO and the entertainment value you get, it is simply amazing. 

    If I only play 8 hours a week, I get 32 hours of enjoyment for a measly $15, that comes out to 47 cents per hour.  Where the heck else are you going to find that?  Considering some of these people who complain about sub fees live at their parents house and play 40+ hours a week, it comes out to pennies an hour.  Sadly it seems those people are the most vocal about it.

    Exactly... Personally I play on average approx. 20 to 30 hours a week (*), so that's on average 100 hours a month... so it costs me 15 cent per hour, if you can't afford that, you certainly have higher priorities in your life you should attend to instead of playing video games.

    (*) 1 hour every day during lunch break at work, 2 hours in the evening during the week, so that's 15 hours in the 5 week days. On week ends, sometimes I only play a few hours too, or when the weathe sucks or I have nothing much to do, it can go up to 10 to 15 hours during the 2 week end days.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • Kane72Kane72 Member UncommonPosts: 211
    All constructive comments there thanks (apart from DMKano stating the obvious - is that how you got to so many posts?).

    On the point about $15 not being a lot, I totally agree, but your whole month of income doesn't just go on a $15 a month choice.  There are literally hundreds, even thousands of things competing for your time and money each month so there's little point in wasting any of it if it's not going to be utilised.  I would probably play a bit here and there on the B2P model (as I'm now doing with ESO and Destiny on the XBox) but I'd rather spend the $15 (£9.99 for me in the UK) on my son's favourite iPad app and let him get the benefit of that piece of money as he is committed to a game.

    The bottom line for me is that Blizzard do not provide the level of content to merit an ongoing sub.  If the expacs were included in the price of a sub, I would think differently, but they really are sponging off people compared to other games.  Just my honest opinion.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Kane72 said:

    The bottom line for me is that Blizzard do not provide the level of content to merit an ongoing sub.  If the expacs were included in the price of a sub, I would think differently, but they really are sponging off people compared to other games.  Just my honest opinion.
    I do sometimes wish Blizzard offered some kind of monthly benefit like SWTOR does with Cartel Coins.  I currently sub to both WoW and SWTOR and I often go 4 to 6 months without playing either game.  I often think to myself, "I should cancel that WoW subscription until I start playing again" but I dont think that about SWTOR due to the silly 500 cartel coins I get.

    I often wonder how many people like me continue to sub to games that they dont play, simply due to the tiny carrot (monthly benefit item) they dangle in front of you each month...
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • fineflufffinefluff Member UncommonPosts: 224
    DMKano said:
    Don't like it - don't play.

    Don't see the value - don't pay.

    Pretty simple 
    That's not always the best approach. Even blizzard values player feedback. It's important to let them know how you feel if you care about the game.
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    DMKano said:
    Talonsin said:
    Kane72 said:

    The bottom line for me is that Blizzard do not provide the level of content to merit an ongoing sub.  If the expacs were included in the price of a sub, I would think differently, but they really are sponging off people compared to other games.  Just my honest opinion.
    I do sometimes wish Blizzard offered some kind of monthly benefit like SWTOR does with Cartel Coins.  I currently sub to both WoW and SWTOR and I often go 4 to 6 months without playing either game.  I often think to myself, "I should cancel that WoW subscription until I start playing again" but I dont think that about SWTOR due to the silly 500 cartel coins I get.

    I often wonder how many people like me continue to sub to games that they dont play, simply due to the tiny carrot (monthly benefit item) they dangle in front of you each month...


    I wish Blizzard would release the stats of players who keep their sub but don't play - it's a very significant %.

    Same happened with EQ1 - a significant % kept paying without playing. A later survey revealed that many thought they had to keep paying to keep their characters.



    I heard that FF11 won't keep your characters if you unsub.  Yea thats harsh retribution but for myself.  If I feel like playing I will sub for 1 month and if I continue to play I keep it going.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,336
    Everything you said is a matter of opinion.  All those legions that continue to sub (ha git it) believe the content and expansions are worth the price.  Does not make them wrong.  Also, while luck plays into everything, Blizzard is being run by very smart people and that helps more than the luck.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kane72 said:
    Having played Legion for a month and got bored and didn't like the way progression is tied in to forcing you to do things you may not be in the mood for e.g. Mythics, I thought I it was time to unsub before they took a payment.

    Then it dawned on me how fortunate for Blizzard that people are still willing to pay a sub for a game that should clearly be Buy to Play (based on what you actually get for your money). They charge full price for each expac and really and truly, that should be enough of a cost for what you get.  The patches are not worthy of a sub or price (and happen all too infrequently) and like many games, should just be considered as ongoing story/development to give people a reason to keep playing (and having the opportunity to buy stuff from the WoW shop) until the next expac.

    There is a lot of value to be gained out there from other Buy to Play games, but I guess all the time Blizzard have people paying subs, it's a model they will stick with.  I'd carry on playing WoW if the subs dropped as I could dip in and out as required, but paying a sub makes me feel obliged to play but I'm bored of logging in regularly now so made the decision to stop.

    Few games would get away with a sub model these days, but all the while people are willing to pay, they will charge you for it.

    I know I said blizzard are fortunate, but yes, you make your own fortune and I am not questioning people's desire to want to pay a sub so they can play the game, which they must be enjoying. Perhaps it's like a drug for some, who can't let go, who knows?

    There is so much badness about this post.

    First, you slam @DMKano for stating obvious statements, when you state things that aren't at all clear. You say "...should clearly be Buy to Play." Is that clear? Feel free to quantify what you're getting. Since you stated it's so "clear", there must be some metric that you're measuring. Or maybe it's simply that YOUR subjective measure of value is not aligned with what others find valuable. After all, you said that you played it for a month and then unsubscribed. So, technically, you got 1 month worth of play out of a game that you paid retail pricing for. I paid for Uncharted 4 which provided significantly less value, same for every Call of Duty game. In fact, I can't think of many games that would last a month. So I don't see how you're measuring value. 

    What you're explaining is the exact reason that subscription models don't work anymore. There is, inherently, games which people find more value in because they are free to play or B2P. However, that doesn't mean that WoW should change it's model. As soon as you go F2P, you immediately devalue your game as well. Remember that obligation to play? Well that's gone now, so people simply don't give a fuck because they can come back whenever they please. Also, why would you change from a subscription model where you are making hundreds of millions of dollars per year, to something where the results of your conversion are all but uncertain? B2P games need to have their income supplemented somehow, and cash shops is generally how that's done. Once that happens, people will leave. That's a certainty. How many? Who knows. However, there's no reason to find out. 

    Finally, you're assuming that people are subscribed perpetually, indefinitely. You see "X million subscribers" and assume it's the same X million people. Meanwhile, I've decided to wait for Xmas to start up again, after which I'm assuming I'll probably be there for 6 months, maybe a year, and then I'll leave again. That being said, there are plenty of people who will remain subscribed all the time. When my guild was active, I remained subscribed all the time because it was more social. Since much of my guild has moved on, I find it less appealing to stick around. There are plenty of reasons to stick around and plenty of value-adds that people find in games to keep them subscribed. If you don't see these types of things as valuable, then I completely understand your argument. I find much less value in WoW since my guildies started moving on. I also find much less value in other MMOs where I don't actively involve myself with the community. 

    Granted, WoW is an anomaly, but it's not immune to the same cycle as any other subscription MMO, it's just on a much longer timeline for that. I'm sure that it will inevitably go F2P at some point. Whether that will come before they end the game remains to be seen. 


    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Kane72Kane72 Member UncommonPosts: 211
    edited October 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kane72 said:
    Having played Legion for a month and got bored and didn't like the way progression is tied in to forcing you to do things you may not be in the mood for e.g. Mythics, I thought I it was time to unsub before they took a payment.

    Then it dawned on me how fortunate for Blizzard that people are still willing to pay a sub for a game that should clearly be Buy to Play (based on what you actually get for your money). They charge full price for each expac and really and truly, that should be enough of a cost for what you get.  The patches are not worthy of a sub or price (and happen all too infrequently) and like many games, should just be considered as ongoing story/development to give people a reason to keep playing (and having the opportunity to buy stuff from the WoW shop) until the next expac.

    There is a lot of value to be gained out there from other Buy to Play games, but I guess all the time Blizzard have people paying subs, it's a model they will stick with.  I'd carry on playing WoW if the subs dropped as I could dip in and out as required, but paying a sub makes me feel obliged to play but I'm bored of logging in regularly now so made the decision to stop.

    Few games would get away with a sub model these days, but all the while people are willing to pay, they will charge you for it.

    I know I said blizzard are fortunate, but yes, you make your own fortune and I am not questioning people's desire to want to pay a sub so they can play the game, which they must be enjoying. Perhaps it's like a drug for some, who can't let go, who knows?

    There is so much badness about this post.

    First, you slam @DMKano for stating obvious statements, when you state things that aren't at all clear. You say "...should clearly be Buy to Play." Is that clear? Feel free to quantify what you're getting. Since you stated it's so "clear", there must be some metric that you're measuring. Or maybe it's simply that YOUR subjective measure of value is not aligned with what others find valuable. After all, you said that you played it for a month and then unsubscribed. So, technically, you got 1 month worth of play out of a game that you paid retail pricing for. I paid for Uncharted 4 which provided significantly less value, same for every Call of Duty game. In fact, I can't think of many games that would last a month. So I don't see how you're measuring value. 

    What you're explaining is the exact reason that subscription models don't work anymore. There is, inherently, games which people find more value in because they are free to play or B2P. However, that doesn't mean that WoW should change it's model. As soon as you go F2P, you immediately devalue your game as well. Remember that obligation to play? Well that's gone now, so people simply don't give a fuck because they can come back whenever they please. Also, why would you change from a subscription model where you are making hundreds of millions of dollars per year, to something where the results of your conversion are all but uncertain? B2P games need to have their income supplemented somehow, and cash shops is generally how that's done. Once that happens, people will leave. That's a certainty. How many? Who knows. However, there's no reason to find out. 

    Finally, you're assuming that people are subscribed perpetually, indefinitely. You see "X million subscribers" and assume it's the same X million people. Meanwhile, I've decided to wait for Xmas to start up again, after which I'm assuming I'll probably be there for 6 months, maybe a year, and then I'll leave again. That being said, there are plenty of people who will remain subscribed all the time. When my guild was active, I remained subscribed all the time because it was more social. Since much of my guild has moved on, I find it less appealing to stick around. There are plenty of reasons to stick around and plenty of value-adds that people find in games to keep them subscribed. If you don't see these types of things as valuable, then I completely understand your argument. I find much less value in WoW since my guildies started moving on. I also find much less value in other MMOs where I don't actively involve myself with the community. 

    Granted, WoW is an anomaly, but it's not immune to the same cycle as any other subscription MMO, it's just on a much longer timeline for that. I'm sure that it will inevitably go F2P at some point. Whether that will come before they end the game remains to be seen. 


    Ok.
  • mikunimanmikuniman Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Kyleran said:
    Keep in mind, a monthly sub is about 50 cents a day, most people who pay a sub can afford this so its not really a concern.

    In fact, at $15 a month it doesn't even matter if I play at all sometimes, and I've paid subs even when not actually playing.

    In EVE I pay annually so comes out to about $10.50 per month per account.

    Fact is, if a game offers an experience unmatched by others people will pay for it.

    That said I'd guess a large number of WOW players on sub for a few months until they finish the latest content, then move on as you did.

    I agree it's inexpensive entertainment if you play one game and play everyday it's 50c a day. My issue with subs is if you're casual or not and like to play more than one game it restricts you to one. (Unless you have a huge gaming budget of course) Busy with rl and don't have time to play it's money wasted. I often feel obligated to log because of this. It's a matter of preference of course but my other 3 titles changed to a ftp model. I can enjoy 3 flavors when ever I want without a being slave to a months sub, I like it.

     I've always liked and still like WoW but for being one of the largest mmos out they're the cheapest. I log in on my other titles and always get some gift for it. Paying $15 plus tax since 2k4 and all I got is that damn cider recipe at xmas, geeze Blizz thx. This was the first WoW xpac since launch I felt I wasted my money, not because I didn't like it, just felt the same and old.
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Yes they are very fortunate they came out at exactly the right time.  If they tried to launch today they would have less then 10k players.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
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