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My new home, my escape, my last chance

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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,498
    edited October 2016
    "Verant, from 1999 to 2001, and SOE, from 2001 to 14 January 2004, issued formal statements giving some indications of the number of EverQuest subscriptions and peak numbers of players online at any given moment.[7] These records show more than 225,000 subscriptions on 1 November 1999,[citation needed] with an increase to more than 450,000 subscriptions by 25 September 2003"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest

    At that time the infrastructure could not have supported large numbers as they can now.  So saying unique subscribers number in the millions is only speculation on your part with no proof.


    Chamber of Chains
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    cheyane said:
    "Verant, from 1999 to 2001, and SOE, from 2001 to 14 January 2004, issued formal statements giving some indications of the number of EverQuest subscriptions and peak numbers of players online at any given moment.[7] These records show more than 225,000 subscriptions on 1 November 1999,[citation needed] with an increase to more than 450,000 subscriptions by 25 September 2003"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest

    At that time the infrastructure could not have supported large numbers as they can now.  So saying unique subscribers number in the millions is only speculation on your part with no proof.


    Ya, I'm sure in 20 years those same several hundred thousand ever played the game. I've seen several statistics over the years saying that they've sold several million copies of the game.

    http://www.sony.com/en_us/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-online-entertainment/2004/sony-online-entertainments-everquest-celebrates-it.html

    Here is one from way back in 2004 that claims 2.5 million.


  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,498
    edited October 2016
    Yes but your're talking in absolute terms like total conversion. Even WoW can boast 100 million or more people have purchased the game but it does not mean all those 100 million will try out their next WoW game.

    Don't forget the baggage that McQuaid carries that will deter many from even trying the game. So I would still say your figure is greatly exaggerated.

    Any way this is pointless I'm sorry I brought it up I really hope we can play this game together when it comes out.
    Chamber of Chains
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,899
    cheyane said:
    Yes but your're talking in absolute terms like total conversion. Even WoW can boast 100 million or more people have purchased the game but it does not mean all those 100 million will try out their next WoW game.

    Don't forget the baggage that McQuaid carries that will deter many from even trying the game. So I would still say your figure is greatly exaggerated.

    Any way this is pointless I'm sorry I brought it up I really hope we can play this game together when it comes out.


    I have a sneaky suspicion.......ALL the haters of the past baggage, are gonna love Pantheon.

    I know people :)

    As long as it's made well. 

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,899
    DMKano said:
    Dullahan said:
    DMKano said:
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    If the game takes at least 2 hours to get anything done, and on top of that needs grouping for most of the time = niche of a niche. We're talking extremely small population.

    Not even players who THINK they want eq1 classic style time commitment actually really want that today in practice.

    What % of veteran players has THAT kind of free time to spend for years?



    Exactly the same percentage of the player population that did back then actually.

    It was niche back then, its niche now, but not any more or less so.

    You've mistakenly taken your personal situation and applied it as a general market perception.


    Heh I wish it was my personal situation but I've seen the research data first hand,  it's ok :)

    If there was the same number of players today as before, game studios would happily be targeting this segment already.

    Why aren't they hmm?


    They just like to leave untapped money potential sitting there?


    Good question, I'll answer it simply.

    Precedent.

    There is no recent precedent that establishes the potential of a game like EverQuest. That is because people have been busy replicating the most successful game in the genre.

    The statistics for modern mmos also tell us that this formula they've all so willingly adopted has poor long-term performance.

    I believe Kyleran will be proven correct based on my observations. There are millions of people estranged from this genre awaiting a game like EQ. The only difference is that there are 3x the number of people on the internet so that niche stands to be considerably larger if such a game comes along and does it right.

    How many of those will end up playing Pantheon though?

    Because it's not 1999 anymore, many of those ex EQ1 players are in a completely different life situation now with families etc... 

    So an estranged player doesn't mean a player willing to spend years playing Pantheon.

    Will Pantheon even be as good as EQ1? 

    Again those same estranged players today have a PLETHORA of other types of entertainment from Netflix/Amazon to Steam to social media - none of these existed back in 1999.

    And I am glad that you brought up "long term perfromance" - you think that Pantheon (assuming it matches EQ1 in terms of quality and features - because if it doesn't it wont even appeal to the same players) will have any better retention than other MMOs today? 

    It won't - because - hello - it's not the games - the issue is the *players have changed* and just don't stick around for years like before, way too many other games to play, way too many other entertainment options online.




    The last line.

    Players have not changed......Marketing made the changes.

    You can't chart forced changes.

     It's like say, everyone loved apples, and then their were only Oranges for several years. No more apples. Then people will say they like Oranges....Get it, no more apples to compare, and if their were a few lingering around they would be rotten.  


    DMKano......I'm sure if we met we would get along, I know your not a bad guy. We just have totally different views.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,448
    edited October 2016
    Dullahan said:
    cheyane said:
    "Verant, from 1999 to 2001, and SOE, from 2001 to 14 January 2004, issued formal statements giving some indications of the number of EverQuest subscriptions and peak numbers of players online at any given moment.[7] These records show more than 225,000 subscriptions on 1 November 1999,[citation needed] with an increase to more than 450,000 subscriptions by 25 September 2003"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest

    At that time the infrastructure could not have supported large numbers as they can now.  So saying unique subscribers number in the millions is only speculation on your part with no proof.


    Ya, I'm sure in 20 years those same several hundred thousand ever played the game. I've seen several statistics over the years saying that they've sold several million copies of the game.

    http://www.sony.com/en_us/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-online-entertainment/2004/sony-online-entertainments-everquest-celebrates-it.html

    Here is one from way back in 2004 that claims 2.5 million.

    At the time of that article EQ already had 7 expansions. So current players would have been counted 8 times in that 2.5 million number.

    The very first bullet point in your link says:
    "Over 2.5 million copies of the game and its expansions have been sold since 1999"

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,498
    Yes good point Xiaoki the figure does represent the expansions sold too so the 2.5 million figure is not just the base game alone and therefore the unique player number is significantly lower. Thanks for that shrewd observation.
    Chamber of Chains
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    People need to calm down with some of these numbers. Millions? This kind of silly expectation will kill the game as soon as it leaves the gate and brand it as a 'failure'.

    Pantheon is a niche title. The devs understand that. They aren't pushing it as a mainstream mass hit, and nor should we.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited October 2016
    DMKano said:
    How many of those will end up playing Pantheon though?

    Because it's not 1999 anymore, many of those ex EQ1 players are in a completely different life situation now with families etc... 

    So an estranged player doesn't mean a player willing to spend years playing Pantheon.

    Will Pantheon even be as good as EQ1? 

    Again those same estranged players today have a PLETHORA of other types of entertainment from Netflix/Amazon to Steam to social media - none of these existed back in 1999.

    And I am glad that you brought up "long term perfromance" - you think that Pantheon (assuming it matches EQ1 in terms of quality and features - because if it doesn't it wont even appeal to the same players) will have any better retention than other MMOs today? 

    It won't - because - hello - it's not the games - the issue is the *players have changed* and just don't stick around for years like before, way too many other games to play, way too many other entertainment options online.



    People haven't changed. People don't change. Trends follow the money, which isn't always indicative of what everyone wants. Specifically this means greater accessibility to wider audiences, particularly younger folks. MMOs were not originally for children, they were for adults. Now people adapt and play games for lack of a better option. Hence all of the constant complaining and why so many indie games are getting millions in crowdfunding.

    MMOs today aren't created to be a lasting experience. You can't play them for long because they aren't designed to be played that way. They offer mass appeal that gives money in spikes. There is no longevity because that is the formula they chose because they know it works and emulating an EQ or an EVE is not something just anyone could do.


  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415

    *snip*

    Because of the cold nature of the so called advancement in technology, mmos are dying off. Yet companies and marketing continue running mmo's into the ground, they simply blame the players, at the very least they say younger players like to play solo and they like easy....How did they reach that conclusion ?.....They changed the playing field, you will like it, end of story.  So many of you believe this "young people like easy".  It's ok, I don't blame you, MARKETING IS POWERFUL and if you don't put much thought into it you would believe its so.  Let me ask this question.  How often do YOU give the reply "I don't like easy, but everyone else does".......I have yet to find that everyone else group.

    That's MARKETING !

    It had gotten far worst.  We reached a new level of bad.  We don't even make our own mmos anymore. Cash Shop Asian grinders, that's all I'll say about that ! 


    My new home, my escape, My last chance

    Some day soon our dream will materialize.  God willing, will get a good mmo out of Pantheon.  I'm confidant Visionary Realms understands the longing for a true mmo that so many of us had waited so long for.  A game that will last for years.  Something that will bring back Guilds, community and friendship in a virtual world.........A place to escape from that long congested drive home.  Will be logging into a cruel world where everything would love to eat us for dinner, yet together we can overcome.  We may not get much done in two hours but will be in it for the long haul with our friends :) 

    Such an excellent post.  Really love this.

    To tie in, i really honestly believe there are so many people who have never known anything different, never tried anything different.  Unfortunately youth is prone to "new is better" and "old is bad", just because it happened before them.  It's a natural order of humanity to believe that we are superior to our predecessors (at least in most cultures).  However, learning from history is paramount to success and to not repeat those mistakes.

    Which is why i just can't wrap my head around why SO MANY companies produce the same drivel, and then get angry and blame it on the players when their game fails.

    Now, i'm not here to say that *everything* about "old" MMO's was fantastic, however, we have reached a point where we have completely tossed the baby out with the bathwater, and so much of this younger generation of gamers believe it's a good thing.  Once again, because they don't know any better.

    My sincere hope is that VR will be able to produce a game that is a "modern old school" game, which will show people that in (good) MMOs, like in real life, it's about the journey, and more importantly about the people you take that journey with.

    How many billionaires do you think in the final years of their lives sit on their deathbed reflecting on the stupid amounts of money they make, or do you think they reflect on their family, friends, experiences, etc?

    No game, and i've played a metric shit ton of them in my 27 years of gaming on the PC, has generated the types and quality of memories as EQ did, none.  Some came close, but none were objectively and in totality as good as EQ.

    Here's to hoping.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    I can't believe people are actually trying to argue that gamers aren't willing to put 3+ hours into games anymore. You literally must not know lany WoW/LoL/hearthstone players.... Sure not everyone lives online but to say there's not enough demand for time consuming games is pure fiction.
  • KxelemKxelem Member UncommonPosts: 27
    I can't believe people are actually trying to argue that gamers aren't willing to put 3+ hours into games anymore. You literally must not know lany WoW/LoL/hearthstone players.... Sure not everyone lives online but to say there's not enough demand for time consuming games is pure fiction.
    Totally agree with you ! :)  
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited October 2016
    Xiaoki said:

    At the time of that article EQ already had 7 expansions. So current players would have been counted 8 times in that 2.5 million number.

    The very first bullet point in your link says:
    "Over 2.5 million copies of the game and its expansions have been sold since 1999"

    This is assuming that they were lying by stating 2.5 million players. If they were to maintain 200 to almost 500k subscriptions for 5 years, its a safe bet that over 2.5 million people played the game. Considering that period of time is also less than a third of the games entire lifespan, its ridiculous to conclude there haven't been many millions of unique players during that time (which is ongoing).

    This also all assumes I was referring to only that oldschool players that played EQ. Pantheon will be appealing to a wide variety of mmo players from first generation games due to its values; namely being open world, player-driven and a social experience where player's advancement and success is largely derived from cooperative play.

    There are indeed millions of people who want to play a game like this again, even if EQ wasn't their favorite first-gen title.
    Post edited by Dullahan on


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