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Pantheon: Old School should not equal archaic mechanics and UI

13

Comments

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited January 2017
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:


    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.
    Cool the game is not for you, move on.
    And even if it was a clone I don't see the problem.
    We have 1000 WoW clones, can we have at least one EQ clone?

    I actually want EQ3, and Pantheon is going to be it.
    If it didn't have EQ core features probably I would not give a shit about this game.

    You talk like a game resembling EQ is a bad thing.
    Well it is not, it is a very good thing for some of us, and we are the target demographics Pantheon is aiming for.
    Will it be innovative enough?
    Probably not, but who cares?
    As Dullahan said, Innovation is way overrated.

    I just don't get your point, what are you trying to achieve with your comments?
    We know already what kind of game Pantheon is going to be.

    Pantheon is going to have many EQ elements in it, it won't be a carbon copy, as VR will bring the concept to modern standards, but overall the game will have a strong EQ feel.
    And there is nothing wrong with it.
    This game is not going to be for everyone.

  • ZardayneZardayne Member UncommonPosts: 66
    As an old school gamer from Ultima on I'm really excited for this game. The one thing so far that is just killing me though is the meditating during a fight to regain mana. I'm sorry but that just kills any kind of heroic feel of adventuring. As some have said already we want that old school feel but I'm sorry some things could have been done better back then and now's a perfect time to make those adjustments and give this game some tweaks for the better. Sitting and meditating during a fight (unless it's just some ridiculously long boss fight) just isn't fun...and that's why we play right?

    image
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,449
    Couldnt agree more. I found this concept riddiculous in other games and I was really happy when Vanguard didnt have it. You COULD sit down in Vanguard during battle, but it did exactly nothing at all.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    VR said they are looking into meditating. So nothing is set in stone. Id suggest just seeing what they come up with first.


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,449
    ste2000 said:
    1) The UI
    Seriously, I don't understand why developers keep ignoring this fundamental feature, getting the UI right can make or break a game.
    All I can say is that the reason why I don't play EQ today is because I can't handle the cumbersome and clunky UI.
    Same reason why I could never get into FFIX.
    Put it simple, I want to fight Mobs, I don't want to spend my time fighting with the UI to get the most simple thing done.
    I noticed that Pantheon UI looks almost the same as the original EQ UI.
    I suggest Visionary Realms to update the UI to something more modern, something more Plug 'n Play, when I play I want to forget the UI is there.
    Could you vague this up for me ? While "plug n play" made a nice start, more poorly defined buzzwords are really necessary here, to finish this masterpiece. You might also want to study political speeches for inspiration in the art of talking much without saying anything.

    I dont have the slighest idea what you want. Yes obviously I dont want to fight the UI instead of the mobs. But whats this all about ?



    ste2000 said:
    2) Combat 
    I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
    But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
    I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
    Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
    Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
    I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.
    Already wasnt true for Vanguard. Very complex classes, uber fun to play those.



    ste2000 said:
    To be clear, personally I don't care how the UI looks, but how easy and accesible is.
    Easy and accessible is important if I want to play a game only for a short time. I am planning on playing Pantheon over years.

    Thus the main attributes I would be looking for in the Pantheon UI would be powerful, allows quick reactions to new situations, allows to avoid unnecessary delays.



    Golelorn said:
    I just want depth and community. I don't mind a cash shop. I prefer fast paced combat. I don't want raids or "end game" to define this game. Community and economy should define the end game. Not a bunch of no drop crap with exclusive guilds being the only people to participate.
    I dont think you'll like this game too much. It definitely wont have "fast paced combat". Think more like "long combat, and you need a group and good group interaction".

    And I dont think they can afford to ever have a cash shop. I for one wouldnt tolerate it, and I think many others wouldnt either.



    ste2000 said:
    I want to play the game not the UI.
    That makes no sense. The UI is the tool for playing the game. To play the game, you have to learn to use the UI, no matter what.



    Dullahan said:
    You will be able to customize your UI. You will not be able to create scripts.
    Exactly what I was looking for.


    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415

    Frankly all of this quibbling over stuff like in game maps, UI, etc, is minor to me.

    I'm not wedded to the idea of having no map, it's not a deal breaker for me. What is a deal breaker is lack of class interdependency. 50 hour leveling to max levels, quest hubs to gain XP rather than killing mobs/dungeon running.

    As long as the UI is functional, I don't care if it's pretty.

    If there is a map, I'd prefer it only be available after you've explored the area. Realistically, people are going to map the zones anyways just like they did with EQ and people will just go on websites to look it up. So, again, this isn't a huge deal at the end of the day.

    I'd prefer we focused on the important things.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited February 2017
    I still see a lot of comments on rhythm of combat, speed of combat, UI clunkiness; guys the stream almost 3 months go was pre pre alpha. Rez wasn't even in, animations, mob casting ranges,  only a single rogue stance of 3 even able to be activated; this game is still in development I'm not quite sure what/how you expect a finished, polished product in its earliest stages of creation. In the Feb newsletter, they consider, sound, effects, animations, textures as all "trivia/expected" improvements during each development stage/new stream outlining Pantheon's progress (i.e. these changes to combat and everything related will be ongoing and noticeable, but the fact that they aren't even using those basic upgrades as a driving point for advertisement really shows you how much other work/core elements they're focusing on which is great). They also said they are trying to re design in and out ofcombat mana regen to avoid some of EQ's original flaws/stale points.

     I've been a conservative, logical fan since day 1 if you've followed my comments at all. With more news on the "angel investor" being a godsend for them (I told you all in the basic points I made of postulation, that none of us know how much private investing they received). Well, judging by this newsletter, what they're focusing on and advertising as improvements on a day to day basic, and the overall momentum and already finishing up on another stream and closing in on pre alpha testing (I've seen Kilsin point this out in about 3 different comments in the past week), my doubts are almost completely gone now. I'm simply waiting until the next stream to upgrade for confirmation on this before upgrading to a 300 or 1000 pledge. If you're familiar with market research or development in general, then you know it's pretty safe to say they now have considerable more funding/resources available and things (updates) have never been coming/moving faster.

    edit sorry for the grammatical errors on the way to work right now

    Post edited by Zuljan on
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    If you are going to say "forced grouping" then do it for all.  This "forced grouping - except some classes can solo" is bullshit.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,062
    Im not sure whats been said but the UI can be customized by players. Thats 100% open. You just cant write scripts to auto play your char. There is no cash shop. REJOICE!!!! You want something, go earn it. 
  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 247
    svann said:
    If you are going to say "forced grouping" then do it for all.  This "forced grouping - except some classes can solo" is bullshit.

    I disagree - you either have class interdependency or all classes who can solo.  Since classes fulfill different roles than others, it leads to different spell/skillsets with some classes resulting in soloing better than others - it is unavoidable (although some newer age mechanics could be implemented - like mobs attacking at range distance while being kited if possible).  The alternative is having class lines blurred to allow for skills/spells that specifically assist in soloing and/or fast regen, both which are substantially worse in a group-focused MMO.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,449
    I expect Pantheon to be like Vanguard in this respect.

    Vanguard was designed as a group PvE game.

    You COULD solo. Overland mobs would usually be perfectly valid targets for soloing. You wouldnt level fast and it wouldnt be fun, but you could definitely level this way.

    The real content however was dungeons. How well you could solo those really depended upon your class and your skill. The harder dungeons have been impossible to solo. However, if you had a good soloing class and would be 5 level above the dungeon, most of the dungeons would be possible to solo.

    For example when they raised maxlevel to 55, I could solo Rhaz Inkur, a level 45 to 50 dungeon, on my Dread Knight. Not sure if I would have survived the entrance, because that was three tough mobs in a group, but I could just use my flying mount to enter the castle at the desired point and pick the mobs I needed to fight to learn one of the special abilities of my class, all on my own.

    Dread Knight was one of the good soloing classes, but only if they had good gear. In poor gear tank classes just sucked big time. DK specifically had been especially skilled at handling groups of opponents. They also have been the only class in the whole game that still, at the end of the game, had an area of effect ability with unlimited targets - everyone else got nerfed to up to six targets at most with their area damage ability. The area lifetap of DK also got nerfed to six targets tops, too, but the area attack had unlimited targets. This means DK could mass murder a huge number of lowlevel mobs in relatively short time total, healing themselves with the area lifetap whenever it was up.

    Other good soloing classes have been Necromancer, the pet class that also got lifetaps, fake death, snare, fear, and other goodies, as well as Disciple, the single target healer specialist, who could heal a single target in insane amounts, and the best part was they also could heal themselves this way, as well as Bear Shaman, who could in best gear and buffs reach very high defenses, and still had the kiting ability of Shamans in general on top of that, and their damage output wasnt too shabby either.

    Other solists have been near unkillable, but low on damage - Paladin, Cleric. Especially a Cleric could easily end up in the situation that he couldnt kill an opponent quickly enough before a new instance of them would pop.

    A lot of classes have been good at kiting - Ranger, Sorcerer, Druid, Psionicist, Wolf and Phoenix Shaman. A special case was Blood Mage - they had no kiting ability whatsoever and no defense, but they could heal themselves and deal massive damage at the same time.


    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    My Tuurgin Shammy and Disciple were king solo. My bard was OK but my Shammy was a powerhouse for solo and buffs. 

    Bear form and my pet bear plus being a healer really kicked ass. 




  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    For the longest time... EQ fans wanted EQ with updated graphics and UI.... and not UI changes like quest markers and stuff... EQ vets wanted just a cleaner, more responsive UI. When the EQ devs opened the doors to skinning alot of the issues with EQ UI went away. 

    Gameplay in EQ was never the issue... TTK and stuff is a non complaint.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    I just need to be able to click tiles onscreen that correspond to abilities. Press square one cast fireball. Press square 2 cast something else. etc. Yeah, I know people say it's better to do something else. That's fine for them. I just want what I have had in most other games I have played. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DagimirDagimir Member UncommonPosts: 20
    2) Combat 
    I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
    But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
    I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
    Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
    Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
    I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.


    I think Swtor combat does it well. Auto attacks happen but dont do much damage and the activated abilities are what actually do the damage and make the difference in fights. I also like the way it has the melee characters engaged with block eachothers attacks and such. Something in the vein of this could go a long way. Project gorgon has a similar combat style just without any auto attacking feature.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,027
    Dagimir said:
    2) Combat 
    I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
    But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
    I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
    Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
    Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
    I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.


    I think Swtor combat does it well. Auto attacks happen but dont do much damage and the activated abilities are what actually do the damage and make the difference in fights. I also like the way it has the melee characters engaged with block eachothers attacks and such. Something in the vein of this could go a long way. Project gorgon has a similar combat style just without any auto attacking feature.
    SWTOR doesn't have auto-attack.  You have to manually hit the basic attack.  Not sure where you got this info from.
  • infiniti70infiniti70 Member UncommonPosts: 73
    edited March 2017
    My few takes:

    1. I like the resource management of mana and stamina. A finite amount is a good thing and adds to the challenge. How quickly it refreshes should at least be dependent on buffs, food/drink, so on; but it should allow for or require a little downtime. Would prefer "energy" over a mana/stamina split. All actions require energy and all classes would be required to monitor and manage this resource.

    2. Some classes should be better at soloing than others, just like some classes should group better than others. I like playing a healer/support classes myself and would not expect it to be a good "solo" class. At the end of the day there can be alts that are playable in an entirely different way. "I can do it all myself" is one of the detractions from many MMOs today, so anti social. However, sometimes I don't want to deal with people and would like that solo build/class available as an alt.  That toon may have a harder time finding random groups, buts what friends/guildmates are for :)

    3. UI: I also kinda like the clutter of some bars on my screen and being able to customize it to how I like my skills. Also like having more skills available than a certain 12 or so. Of course that is if the skills have enough diversification and use. Don't care if I have the option of 5 different DD skills that ultimately do the same thing. 

    4. Also like cool downs on certain skills and liked the longer CDs on class spefic skills. With all CDs up, you could really take on a challenging situation, a break from the normal routine. 

    Looking forward to this game and a link to past enjoyable features for me in EQ1, wish they had the funding to speed things up actually. 

    Will also add this on soloing, it should be hard and take maximum proficiency to do. I enjoyed the Coercer class in EQ2 soling, but took Mezz, Charms, and other skills done right to break apart group mobs. Charm breaks too soon...screwed. Also played Monk and FD could be used to break up group mobs, but if FD failed...screwed.  Add in some open world PvP and soling truly was a risk. 
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.

    I don't want innovative.


    I want EQ with updated graphics and a modern UI.


    Just like Pillars of Eternity gave me a new game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,062
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.

    I don't want innovative.


    I want EQ with updated graphics and a modern UI.


    Just like Pillars of Eternity gave me a new game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate.

    You are going to be upset then. Pantheon says very clearly from their FAQ and in posts. "They took from EQ what made sense" The rest is a very modern MMO but rests heavy on exploring and teaming. If you read the FAQ and the forums looking for official posts from Devs. You will quickly see what they are making and they keep telling people not to expect a copy of EQ1. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard will find things that remind them of but it will be its own thing. 
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Nanfoodle said:
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.

    I don't want innovative.


    I want EQ with updated graphics and a modern UI.


    Just like Pillars of Eternity gave me a new game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate.

    You are going to be upset then. Pantheon says very clearly from their FAQ and in posts. "They took from EQ what made sense" The rest is a very modern MMO but rests heavy on exploring and teaming. If you read the FAQ and the forums looking for official posts from Devs. You will quickly see what they are making and they keep telling people not to expect a copy of EQ1. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard will find things that remind them of but it will be its own thing. 


    I am aware of how they implementing things, and keep close tabs on information releases.


    I'm not idealistic enough to insist mechanics remains identical to EQ, as long as the overall gameplay style retains a similar feel.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Amathe said:
    I just need to be able to click tiles onscreen that correspond to abilities. Press square one cast fireball. Press square 2 cast something else. etc. Yeah, I know people say it's better to do something else. That's fine for them. I just want what I have had in most other games I have played. 
    If you mean placing spells into hotbars, you can do that. Doesn't change how many spells you have available at one time however.
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    edited March 2017
    Nanfoodle said:
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.

    I don't want innovative.


    I want EQ with updated graphics and a modern UI.


    Just like Pillars of Eternity gave me a new game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate.

    You are going to be upset then. Pantheon says very clearly from their FAQ and in posts. "They took from EQ what made sense" The rest is a very modern MMO but rests heavy on exploring and teaming. If you read the FAQ and the forums looking for official posts from Devs. You will quickly see what they are making and they keep telling people not to expect a copy of EQ1. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard will find things that remind them of but it will be its own thing. 

    Put it this way it will be a lot closer to EQ/Vanguard than that utter mess you supported, EQN lol. 

    If anyone is going to be very surprised it will be you. Unfortunately for you, you can't promote your same nonsense you did in the EQN forum because this game will be a modern take on both those games. 

    Nope not identical copy of EQ or Vanguard but the basis and inperation comes from those games unlike that rubbish that was EQN. 




  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,062
    Nanfoodle said:
    Darksworm said:
    ste2000 said:

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.

    I don't want innovative.


    I want EQ with updated graphics and a modern UI.


    Just like Pillars of Eternity gave me a new game in the spirit of Baldur's Gate.

    You are going to be upset then. Pantheon says very clearly from their FAQ and in posts. "They took from EQ what made sense" The rest is a very modern MMO but rests heavy on exploring and teaming. If you read the FAQ and the forums looking for official posts from Devs. You will quickly see what they are making and they keep telling people not to expect a copy of EQ1. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard will find things that remind them of but it will be its own thing. 

    Put it this way it will be a lot closer to EQ/Vanguard than that utter mess you supported, EQN lol. 

    If anyone is going to be very surprised it will be you. Unfortunately for you, you can't promote your same nonsense you did in the EQN forum because this game will be a modern take on both those games. 

    Nope not identical copy of EQ or Vanguard but the basis and inperation comes from those games unlike that rubbish that was EQN. 
     Nice dig, hurt so much it made me laugh. You know so little. Keep trying. 
  • VaselVasel Member UncommonPosts: 215
    I backed this game as well hoping we would get a modern looking but mostly fundamentally old school game with tribute to EQ and so on. Its not shaping up anything like that.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2017
    Vasel said:
    I backed this game as well hoping we would get a modern looking but mostly fundamentally old school game with tribute to EQ and so on. Its not shaping up anything like that.
    In what way? Based on the streams, it couldn't be more like EQ. The only serious difference would be the weaker death penalty which is probably for the sake of time during the stream. That or it hasn't been fully implemented yet.


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