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Pantheon: Old School should not equal archaic mechanics and UI

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  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,392
    I just want depth and community. I don't mind a cash shop. I prefer fast paced combat. I don't want raids or "end game" to define this game. Community and economy should define the end game. Not a bunch of no drop crap with exclusive guilds being the only people to participate.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    My feelings from watching it:

    The Graphics:  Much better.  Still need some improving, but they're definitely going on the right path.
    Honorable mention - the draw distance.  Very nice seeing Kilsin so far away in that dungeon.

    The combat:  About what I expected.  I know they are improving the sound in the future.  It was probably the weakest point in the combat part for me.

    UI:  Not the worst I've seen, especially recently.  I look forward to see what they do with this.

    The Perception system:  I want to see more of it, but I will say that it seems like breadcrumb quests.  Not sure if this will make the experience more immersive or just more annoying.  I have concerns about the whole you must talk to crying lady to get key and kill boss.  Seems pretty much like a quest chain.  Not sure how removing mini-map and exclamation points is going to improve the experience on that front.  Remains to be seen, but this seems to be the biggest let down so far for me.

    AI: About what I expected.  Serviceable and what you would expect from a game like this.

    NPCs:  Are there and static for the most part, but again serviceable and what I expected.

    Itemization:  Liked what I saw, but hoping for more clear definitive info on this as the game progresses in development.  Being surprised in random boss loot drops is a good thing for me.  Makes grinding or just killing things to see what he/she might drop more interesting.

    Abilities:  Loved the info about finding the abilities in the world.  Like that element of the game being implemented.  

    Groups:  Love the group idea, but I do think they need some activities for players to do when others won't be on to play the game with you.  What happens when you want to play early in the morning and your mates happen to be in bed?  Something to think about.

    Overall liked what I saw, but curious to see what they do with some of their new game designs in the future.  My biggest positives are exploration, variety, big world and focus on discoveries.



  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    Well for the record, if by a modern UI you mean something you can navigate with your console controller then you dont understand why they are making this game.  Personally I love the UI's of slightly older MMO's, original meaning, WoW, Rift, EQ2 ect.  There are tons of options and feedback, drag and dtop functions and the ability to open 20 windows at once to manage things.

    Looking at the latest stream it seems they are getting the UI right.


  • KhazgulKhazgul Member CommonPosts: 3
    Vrika said:
    I hope they update the UI too, and I think there's a good chance they will. Small dev teams often make a placeholder UI with a lot of squares in it while testing the game, then bring in UI specialist for a limited time when the game is finished enough that they know what UI elements and functionality they want to have.
    Me too I love EQ I just don't want the UI looking like it came from the 90s also but I am hoping as the game takes off and they can afford to have more developers they will focus on this also along with the other things.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Khazgul said:

    Me too I love EQ I just don't want the UI looking like it came from the 90s also but I am hoping as the game takes off and they can afford to have more developers they will focus on this also along with the other things.
    Exactly.
    When I play I don't even want to think the UI is there.
    I want to play the game not the UI.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    The UI will need tweaking but other than that I'm happy with it, I don't want a UI like ESO. Long as I can fade the background so it's the skills that are prominent I'm happy. 




  • RottsteinRottstein Member UncommonPosts: 66
    My biggest fear for this game is that the UI is going to suck.  When asked about it Brad parsed his words carefully, and not in a good way.  I fear this game is going to have an XML UI with only real customization being visual and possibly a few lame macro commands will be allowed

    I wish for an extensible UI like WoW has, but not quite as intense.  Things like you could build functionality to see what you have stored in the bank while out and about, even though you can't access it.  From this you could also have the crafting windows show what you could make with what you have and tell you what you have in the bank that you need to get to make something or let you know that you need 7 more sacks of flour to make a pizza crust(I make big pizzas, don't judge!).  

    Give players the tools they need to make life easier for the player but not extensible enough to be exploited.  Do not allow movement commands via scripting.  Do not allow the UI to click the mouse or press a key(so no afk crafting beyond what the base UI would allow).  But scripting and macros should be allowed.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    You will be able to customize your UI. You will not be able to create scripts.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK3HJTSZG6c&feature=youtu.be&t=3527


  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    Rottstein said:
    My biggest fear for this game is that the UI is going to suck.  When asked about it Brad parsed his words carefully, and not in a good way.  I fear this game is going to have an XML UI with only real customization being visual and possibly a few lame macro commands will be allowed

    I wish for an extensible UI like WoW has, but not quite as intense.  Things like you could build functionality to see what you have stored in the bank while out and about, even though you can't access it.  From this you could also have the crafting windows show what you could make with what you have and tell you what you have in the bank that you need to get to make something or let you know that you need 7 more sacks of flour to make a pizza crust(I make big pizzas, don't judge!).  

    Give players the tools they need to make life easier for the player but not extensible enough to be exploited.  Do not allow movement commands via scripting.  Do not allow the UI to click the mouse or press a key(so no afk crafting beyond what the base UI would allow).  But scripting and macros should be allowed.

    "give players the tools they need to make life easier "

    No thanks, we have enough mmo's that follow that mantra. 




  • RottsteinRottstein Member UncommonPosts: 66
    Rottstein said:

    Give players the tools they need to make life easier for the player but not extensible enough to be exploited.  Do not allow movement commands via scripting.  Do not allow the UI to click the mouse or press a key(so no afk crafting beyond what the base UI would allow).  But scripting and macros should be allowed.

    "give players the tools they need to make life easier "

    No thanks, we have enough mmo's that follow that mantra. 
    Get out your notepad!   That was so much better!
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 436
    edited January 2017
    Rottstein said:
    Rottstein said:

    Give players the tools they need to make life easier for the player but not extensible enough to be exploited.  Do not allow movement commands via scripting.  Do not allow the UI to click the mouse or press a key(so no afk crafting beyond what the base UI would allow).  But scripting and macros should be allowed.

    "give players the tools they need to make life easier "

    No thanks, we have enough mmo's that follow that mantra. 
    Get out your notepad!   That was so much better!
    How about adding a character journal in the game that allows you to take and save notes in-game. There's nothing wrong with that. A system can be built around that. Someone takes good notes with waypoints/landmarks to a certain point of interest, and then can share those notes with other players, allowing the sharing of info/knowledge, which is one of the core ways to build strong community.

    I'd totally for something like that.

    When I started playing FFXI, right after NA launch on PC, you had people asking all kinds of questions in shout, /say, guild (linkshell) chat, sharing information, etc. Everything was new and mysterious and unfamiliar and weird, and it was awesome. People offering to buy something for beastman seals because they didn't know what they were for, yet, only to find you couldn't actually sell them, and so on. It was exciting to find something interesting or helpful and then be able to share/spread that information to other players, etc.

    Convenience should come in the form of an intuitive, "transparent" UI to assist the player in playing the game without getting in the way - like the OP mentions. It should no be to the extent of implementing all kinds of meta information for the character, so everything is spelled out. An example that drives me nuts in most modern MMOs, is that there's some kind of ruins or point-of-interest on the map that your character isn't supposed to know about, yet it's on the map, plain as day, and yet you still get "discovery xp" when you run to it. You're robbed of that moment of actual discovery, because you knew it was there before you even took your first step to go there.

    The starting town/city should be familiar enough to have map markers available. Maybe even a small area around that starting town, as your character could realistically be familiar with it. But as you start moving away from "familiar ground", those symbols/markers should go away, so it becomes a *true* discovery - for player and character - when they stumble upon somewhere interesting. That's a big part of what many are alluding to when they talk about "meaningful exploration". Adding waymarkers, or arrows or whatever in the name of "convenience" crushes all that and renders it moot. Let exploration, discovery and the sharing of info about the world, creatures, secrets, puzzles, etc be organic. Developers should get out of the way, and let community happen.

    Many who've come to the MMO genre post-WoW never really got to experience what "Community" is, as experienced by us "old fogeys" who were around in the 1st and 2nd gen. I've seen the argument "join a guild, that's your community" so many times, and it can't be overstated just how much that misses the point. It's like holding up a bucket of water and calling it a lake.

    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • BonechipBonechip Member UncommonPosts: 11
    Late posting on this thread, but Brad has said that the UI will be comparable to any other modern MMO UI.

    As a UI author myself, I had the same worries/questions concerning Pantheon. He said that the UI would be "editable" out of the box for UI authors, and have basic scripting (similar to EQ, not game automating). 
    -------------------------------------------
    • MMO Dweller Extraordinaire.
    • Mover of Mountains.
    • Monkey Trainer.
    • Author of SparxxUI for Everquest.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,037
    The combat was awful, from what I've seen.  The resource management was even more awful.  The UI was awful.

    They have basically plagiarized EverQuest.  A lot of the work was done for them.  They should put a little more work into the other systems.

    What they have shown, thus far, is not "pay to play" worthy...  And it's hard for them to really explain anything, because everything seems so obvious to anyone who is even considering this game.  Most of them have played EQ at some point, and nothing the developers of Pantheon could say would come across as anything but "Duh!"

    Right now, it looks like a very lazy cloning of a classic.

    I really liked EQ, but there were actually things about the game that the players didn't like.  The fact that people are fed up with the current crop of MMORPGs doesn't mean most will be okay with wholesale cloning EQ and packaging it up with a new graphics engine.

    I think Vanguard would have been a better source for "ideas" if they wanted the least amount of work for maximum pay-off...
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,405
    edited January 2017
    I'm currently playing a version of a game released in 2001 and believe it or not, the 3 weeks its been available, there have been 3000 people online with around 1500-2500 in queue during prime time. I think it's safe to say, old graphics, old ui and old combat mechanics are making their way back into mainstream. I've had my fair share of action combat and games that gave up on the trinity system. I actually now prefer P99, SWG and Uthgard over current MMOs.

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited January 2017
    Darksworm said:
    The combat was awful, from what I've seen.  The resource management was even more awful.  The UI was awful.

    They have basically plagiarized EverQuest.  A lot of the work was done for them.  They should put a little more work into the other systems.

    Like what?
    This is a Pre-Alpha, did you expect to see all the features of a released game?
    Pantheon started development 1 year ago, it was for a long time in pre-production, compared to other games in production they made good progress already.

    Darksworm said:

    What they have shown, thus far, is not "pay to play" worthy...  And it's hard for them to really explain anything, because everything seems so obvious to anyone who is even considering this game.  Most of them have played EQ at some point, and nothing the developers of Pantheon could say would come across as anything but "Duh!"

    Right now, it looks like a very lazy cloning of a classic.

    What did you expect from the Co-Creator of EQ and Vanguard?
    It's not lazy cloning, it's Brad Mcquaid style, and if you are following this game Brad stated that this is an evolution of EQ not a clone.

    Darksworm said:

    I really liked EQ, but there were actually things about the game that the players didn't like.  The fact that people are fed up with the current crop of MMORPGs doesn't mean most will be okay with wholesale cloning EQ and packaging it up with a new graphics engine.

    I think Vanguard would have been a better source for "ideas" if they wanted the least amount of work for maximum pay-off...
    They will fix things that didn't work in EQ and they will bring the game to modern standards, that's the scope of this project.
    Pantheon is not going to be an EQ clone, but it will have all the core features of EQ, and if you judge a game so harshly from a Pre-Alpha stream then you are the problem, not the game.

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,379
    Vanguard's UI was miles ahead of EQ1, so I can only imagine it will improve on Vanguard with Pantheon -- not go back to what EQ1 was.
    --------------------------------------------
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    edited January 2017
    They have said the game is a modern day version of both games plus new up to date features. 

    The UI will be just fine. 




  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,003
    edited January 2017
    Kilsin said:
    Just for the record, we have an atlas that you can bring up in-game, like a world map to a point but it does not show your location or have any quest/POI markers or anything to assist with navigating other than an overview of the world, which we think is important in helping to make travel and communication/interaction an important aspect of Pantheon.

    We would rather you either explore and try to find your own way (and by doing so stumbling upon other exciting landmarks and points of interest) or ask other community members for help/directions than follow a sparkling trail or flashing markers that lead you to your destination :)

    We will also encourage community members to make their own maps to discuss and share with each other as we feel that also helps bring the community together.
    I'm all for exploration but this idea seems insufficient.

    In a recently relaunched DAOC shard they took the approach of allowing in game "zone" maps to come up on your screen and even switch to the next zone when you cross the "boundary"

    The games chat also broadcasts a message you've entered a new area.

    While these small maps have a few key towns and roads on them, including zone entrances and exits they do not show where you are on them.

    Combined with a zone grid design and a /loc feature it makes for challenging yet not frustrating navigation.

    Im really not interested in navigating a game world totally by in game land marks and dead reckoning, nor being guided anywhere by markers or magic lines.

    Something in between both extremes would be preferred.

    I don't consider it a positive game play feature if one of the biggest challenges is to keep from being totally lost most of the time. :)


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,075
    ste2000 said:
    Darksworm said:
    The combat was awful, from what I've seen.  The resource management was even more awful.  The UI was awful.

    They have basically plagiarized EverQuest.  A lot of the work was done for them.  They should put a little more work into the other systems.

    Like what?
    This is a Pre-Alpha, did you expect to see all the features of a released game?
    Pantheon started development 1 year ago, it was for a long time in pre-production, compared to other games in production they made good progress already.
    Pantheon started development 3 years ago, the new team entered the company 2.5 years ago. I have seen development videos for the game made back in 2014 and 2015 so I'm confused when you say its only been in development for a year.

    It would be different if they had been building the game engine for the game but that's not the case for Pantheon.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,405
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Vanguard's UI was miles ahead of EQ1, so I can only imagine it will improve on Vanguard with Pantheon -- not go back to what EQ1 was.

    Also take into consideration that Panthen has a fraction of funds compared to Vanguard team.

    To make large improvements takes money.
    Ok but is UI development that much of a drain on development resources, at least when compared to other game features people should be worrying about?

    Ah yes, for some reason this is a common misconception outside the mmo dev community.

    UI takes a LOT of work, because its not just the LOOK which is what gamers think of when they think UI.

    UI ties into all the back end systems, and has to be flexible enough to support constant underlying changes.

    Yes good UI is *expensive* and complicated.
    So, you're saying you're a developer and if so, what games have you worked on?

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,003
    Kilsin said:
    Just for the record, we have an atlas that you can bring up in-game, like a world map to a point but it does not show your location or have any quest/POI markers or anything to assist with navigating other than an overview of the world, which we think is important in helping to make travel and communication/interaction an important aspect of Pantheon.

    We would rather you either explore and try to find your own way (and by doing so stumbling upon other exciting landmarks and points of interest) or ask other community members for help/directions than follow a sparkling trail or flashing markers that lead you to your destination :)

    We will also encourage community members to make their own maps to discuss and share with each other as we feel that also helps bring the community together.

    +100 to this !..... I always refer back to MUDS I know. But this is how MUDS played out. And when I played, it was before any of these walk-through websites existed. You relied on one another to get around or you relied on your own wits to see you thru to the end. It was a blast. I am so grateful for this feature in Pantheon.

    This aspect also created Map people. I mean people that you would bring along because their information about where to go or what to do was invaluable.(I loved being that guy) I am afraid websites/wikis have ruined this.

    P.S. I had a wall in my bedroom as a 15 year old kid with 50 sheets of graph paper laid out. I drew nearly the entire MUD I played on it. The time it took me to do that was absurd but it was a major achievement to me. One that I will never forget and one that I truly loved......... As my kids now watch Dora the Explorer. I always sing with them the part

    If there is a place you got to go
    I am the one you need to know
    I'm the Map!
    I'm the Map!
    I'm the Map!

    If there is a place you got to get
    I can get you there I bet
    I'm the Map!
    I'm the Map!
    I'm the Map!

    As a Dad..... My kids think I'm just being awesome when I dance and sing with them to their favorite shows. But this one song always brings me back to when I was 15 years old and spending countless hours drawing an entire map of the game I loved.

    (Trust me the Singing and Dancing with your 8, 4 and 3 year old is always cheesy lol but they love it ! and thats what matters)
    OK, I'm old enough to remember mapping out many RPG games on graph paper, but I'm really not looking to go back to the days when we gamed on "wooden computers" and had to set our own DOS config/memory settings.

    I do appreciate the convenience of some in game maps since likely they won't be shipping me a nice cloth one for my wall. ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Shaigh said:
    ste2000 said:

    Pantheon started development 3 years ago, the new team entered the company 2.5 years ago. I have seen development videos for the game made back in 2014 and 2015 so I'm confused when you say its only been in development for a year.

    It would be different if they had been building the game engine for the game but that's not the case for Pantheon.
    Those were tech demos made with Unity assets, that is also the reason why Kickstarter failed, there wasn't much to see.
    Since then the they regrouped and reshaped the Team, and the game was in pre-production (Planning)  until 1 year ago when they actually started proper coding, when they managed to get some funds from private investors since they had no money.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,037
    ste2000 said:
    Darksworm said:
    The combat was awful, from what I've seen.  The resource management was even more awful.  The UI was awful.

    They have basically plagiarized EverQuest.  A lot of the work was done for them.  They should put a little more work into the other systems.

    Like what?
    This is a Pre-Alpha, did you expect to see all the features of a released game?
    Pantheon started development 1 year ago, it was for a long time in pre-production, compared to other games in production they made good progress already.

    It's pre-Alpha, but a lot of the systems are pretty advanced along in development, and it's literally a carbon copy of 1999 gameplay at this point.
    Darksworm said:

    What they have shown, thus far, is not "pay to play" worthy...  And it's hard for them to really explain anything, because everything seems so obvious to anyone who is even considering this game.  Most of them have played EQ at some point, and nothing the developers of Pantheon could say would come across as anything but "Duh!"

    Right now, it looks like a very lazy cloning of a classic.

    What did you expect from the Co-Creator of EQ and Vanguard?
    It's not lazy cloning, it's Brad Mcquaid style, and if you are following this game Brad stated that this is an evolution of EQ not a clone.

    It's an EQ Clone.  I don't think anyone can look at this game and come to any other conclusion, and be taken seriously.  The term "evolution" is being used as nothing more than a catchphrase.  This is like Apple citing "courage" for removing a headset jack.  It means nothing.  The game, when you look at it and its gameplay, is practically a clone of EQ.

    Darksworm said:

    I really liked EQ, but there were actually things about the game that the players didn't like.  The fact that people are fed up with the current crop of MMORPGs doesn't mean most will be okay with wholesale cloning EQ and packaging it up with a new graphics engine.

    I think Vanguard would have been a better source for "ideas" if they wanted the least amount of work for maximum pay-off...
    They will fix things that didn't work in EQ and they will bring the game to modern standards, that's the scope of this project.
    Pantheon is not going to be an EQ clone, but it will have all the core features of EQ, and if you judge a game so harshly from a Pre-Alpha stream then you are the problem, not the game.

    At this point, it's just an EQ Clone.  I'm not the problem, the fact that they have done almost nothing to differentiate the core game systems from EQ is the problem.  I've already played EQ.  Why would I want to play it again.  I want something more innovative.  Vanguard was innovative compared to EQ.  This is a huge step backwards.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited January 2017
    Innovation is overrated. Looking at MMOs today, I see they've innovated themselves into a pit so deep, no AAA company wants to touch the genre. That's because in the name of innovation, they have done away with many things that made MMORPGs worth playing.

    Pantheon may be like EQ in a lot of ways, because those key areas are the things that made MMORPGs more enjoyable for a great many people. That doesn't mean there isn't room to build on top of that. Calling it a clone is to completely ignore the things they've shown us about climates and environments, dynamic encounters, colored mana, the perception system ... oh and the fact that melee have more than 1 combat ability.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/

    Gyva02Eronakis[Deleted User]


  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 247
    Dullahan said:
    Innovation is overrated. Looking at MMOs today, I see they've innovated themselves into a pit so deep, no AAA company wants to touch the genre. That's because in the name of innovation, they have done away with many things that made MMORPGs worth playing.


    Agreed with this 100%.  I've always argued that I never agreed with innovation for the sake of trying to be different.  It's more of a marketing ploy at that point rather than a plus for the genre.  Now, if you could expand/innovate on the foundation of what made Social MMOs like EQ great and worthwhile to play, without completely changing that foundation, then I'm all for it.
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