Pantheon: Old School should not equal archaic mechanics and UI

ste2000

I was reading Shroud of the Avatar review which in my view is pretty spot on (By the way congratulations on the reviewer, finally someone who makes real reviews instead of free advertisement).
But I was more amused by the many user comments claiming that Old School concept is now outdated taking SotA as the obvious example.

Well, whoever thinks that SotA is what Old School is all about didn't understand what Old School games means to many of us (Certainly Richard Garriot didn't have a clue).
Old School is a play-style where hard challenges, time invested and social interaction ALL matter, it is not just about the "Old Feel".

Pantheon should not make the same mistakes some Old School games like SotA are making, we don't want a carbon copy of 1998 games, we want a modern interpretation of older MMOs with a fresh twist.
A good start for Pantheon is the choice of not having an In-game Shop, which is the only modern feature an Old School game should do without.
Apart from that I believe Pantheon should enbrace many of modern features that make playng a MMO less tedious.
In particular they should focus on two elements:

1) The UI
Seriously, I don't understand why developers keep ignoring this fundamental feature, getting the UI right can make or break a game.
All I can say is that the reason why I don't play EQ today is because I can't handle the cumbersome and clunky UI.
Same reason why I could never get into FFIX.
Put it simple, I want to fight Mobs, I don't want to spend my time fighting with the UI to get the most simple thing done.
I noticed that Pantheon UI looks almost the same as the original EQ UI.
I suggest Visionary Realms to update the UI to something more modern, something more Plug 'n Play, when I play I want to forget the UI is there.

2) Combat 
I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.

These are so many areas Old School games can improve without betraying the Old School concept, such as crafting, economy, social features.
I am not asking VR to reinvent the wheel, I still want a strong EQ feel.
I just hope that  they are not stuck in the 1998 and make full use of modern technology and features to revive a play-style that really never evolved since 2004.

delete5230

I try and not use the words " Old School ".

People here definitely equate this to OLD.....For some reason many cant wrap their head around a community working together type of game.

They simply regress back to 1999.  This I could never figure out, and no changing them.

Everything can have an extremely organic modern twist to it.

Use technology to make it organic and realistic, and I'm not talking about better graphics.

Dullahan

I agree, and so does the Pantheon team. Here is a post from the recent Pantheon AMA on Reddit that speaks to the topic of how to bring back the feel of oldschool mmorpgs while avoiding repeating past mistakes inherent to their design.

Brad McQuaid said:

There's no easy answer here. Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards and leveling and earning new abilities and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate is one way to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your friends need you to log in with them or order advance -- and most people who want to be part of a team, a team player, respond well to this pressure.

As for Pantheon not being as hardcore as EQ, I don't think I said that. I said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind I was referring to involved tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism.

immodium

To me EQ combat was/is as boring as any tab target game.

I grant you had to be more spatially aware of your surroundings when you camped, and not pull more than you could handle. But when combat initiated it was as mindless as today's MMOs.

I want to make this clear, this is specific to the PvE leveling experience of all MMORPG's.

But that's what I like about this genre, the laid back combat/content that allows you to relax. So in that regard I'm hoping it's like EQ.

The toughest thing about EQ was working out what spells did as they didn't come with an explanation and I'd like to see that implemented in newer MMOs.

Vrika

I hope they update the UI too, and I think there's a good chance they will. Small dev teams often make a placeholder UI with a lot of squares in it while testing the game, then bring in UI specialist for a limited time when the game is finished enough that they know what UI elements and functionality they want to have.

ste2000

Vrika said:

I hope they update the UI too, and I think there's a good chance they will. Small dev teams often make a placeholder UI with a lot of squares in it while testing the game, then bring in UI specialist for a limited time when the game is finished enough that they know what UI elements and functionality they want to have.

To be clear, personally I don't care how the UI looks, but how easy and accesible is.
The UI should be a Tool to help play the game, it should not be an obstacle and certainly you should not fight with it to get stuff done.
As I said before, when I play a game I would like to forget the UI is there.
Looting, Inventory, Skill/Spell Bar, should be easy to set up and manage, EQ was a pain in the arse.

Thebeasttt

Couldn't agree more. "Old school" is often used as an excuse for 3rd world development. Remember even EQ classic let you carry around 8 backpacks. A little QoL wouldn't hurt, newer games just overdo it ^100.

I remember hearing a podcast where a guy is told there will be no maps in Pantheon, to which the guy responded, "that doesn't even make sense, there were even maps in medieval times." General maps aren't a problem, it's the overly detailed maps with a blinking built-in radar that ends up replacing the virtual world.

Velifax

Thebeasttt said:

Couldn't agree more. "Old school" is often used as an excuse for 3rd world development. Remember even EQ classic let you carry around 8 backpacks. A little QoL wouldn't hurt, newer games just overdo it ^100.

I remember hearing a podcast where a guy is told there will be no maps in Pantheon, to which the guy responded, "that doesn't even make sense, there were even maps in medieval times." General maps aren't a problem, it's the overly detailed maps with a blinking built-in radar that ends up replacing the virtual world.

Good point, I'd forgotten to consider the map as part of the UI. 

Theres no reason we couldn't have Ark style maps (your avatar literally holds the map in front of the camera) with detail relevant to the map quality. So you can get shards of a map, or partially burned maps, or half finished maps, or meticulously detailed maps (for a stiff price). 

One important point is that there must be enough content, enough need for maps, to make trade in and manufacture of maps engaging. Maps should be destructible.

will there be warehouses full of valuable maps? I hope so! Trick is to know which maps to take and to know where those warehouses are, and to restock and protect them.

Id prefer, given today's Internet, to have tools in game to work with maps. 

I think however, they chose a different route, which makes sense given the proliferation of free detailed maps online. Can't fault them.

Kilsin

Just for the record, we have an atlas that you can bring up in-game, like a world map to a point but it does not show your location or have any quest/POI markers or anything to assist with navigating other than an overview of the world, which we think is important in helping to make travel and communication/interaction an important aspect of Pantheon.

We would rather you either explore and try to find your own way (and by doing so stumbling upon other exciting landmarks and points of interest) or ask other community members for help/directions than follow a sparkling trail or flashing markers that lead you to your destination

We will also encourage community members to make their own maps to discuss and share with each other as we feel that also helps bring the community together.

baphamet

back in the day on my ogre shaman, combat was definitly not boring for me when i had to keep all my buffs up, keep the mobs slowed, root CC, and heal the group all while trying to canni dance.

i intend to play the same race/class combo in this game and if it's anything like EQ, i'm not worried about being bored in combat.

waynejr2

ste2000 said:

I was reading Shroud of the Avatar review which in my view is pretty spot on (By the way congratulations on the reviewer, finally someone who makes real reviews instead of free advertisement).
But I was more amused by the many user comments claiming that Old School concept is now outdated taking SotA as the obvious example.

Well, whoever thinks that SotA is what Old School is all about didn't understand what Old School games means to many of us (Certainly Richard Garriot didn't have a clue).
Old School is a play-style where hard challenges, time invested and social interaction ALL matter, it is not just about the "Old Feel".

Pantheon should not make the same mistakes some Old School games like SotA are making, we don't want a carbon copy of 1998 games, we want a modern interpretation of older MMOs with a fresh twist.
A good start for Pantheon is the choice of not having an In-game Shop, which is the only modern feature an Old School game should do without.
Apart from that I believe Pantheon should enbrace many of modern features that make playng a MMO less tedious.
In particular they should focus on two elements:

1) The UI
Seriously, I don't understand why developers keep ignoring this fundamental feature, getting the UI right can make or break a game.
All I can say is that the reason why I don't play EQ today is because I can't handle the cumbersome and clunky UI.
Same reason why I could never get into FFIX.
Put it simple, I want to fight Mobs, I don't want to spend my time fighting with the UI to get the most simple thing done.
I noticed that Pantheon UI looks almost the same as the original EQ UI.
I suggest Visionary Realms to update the UI to something more modern, something more Plug 'n Play, when I play I want to forget the UI is there.

2) Combat 
I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.

These are so many areas Old School games can improve without betraying the Old School concept, such as crafting, economy, social features.
I am not asking VR to reinvent the wheel, I still want a strong EQ feel.
I just hope that  they are not stuck in the 1998 and make full use of modern technology and features to revive a play-style that really never evolved since 2004.

I  am what people would call and old school gamer and I hate that term.   City of heroes had a great UI and shows simple can work well.

At 56 years old, I can't do twitch "action combat" like I would have been able to do even 16 years ago.  You want to get a wide select of players, you need not have twitch style.  Like you said, challenge.  Which should simply be reflexes.

Fast combat just falls into the adhd/addiction/excitement trap.  You need the fast to get that high and you need it over and over and over again. 

Warlyx

Eq ui sucked , but at the time it was "cool"

Joseph_Kerr

Oldschool isn't synonymous with lack of features. If anything that train of thought is more applicable to modern mmos.

kjempff

immodium said:

To me EQ combat was/is as boring as any tab target game.

I have been bored with combat in a bunch of mmorpgs including action oriented ones, but in eq I was rarely bored in actual combat. Though I mostly played classes with more to do and also tried to play in an optimized way - With that kind of mindset, eq combat could be taken to a much higher level by attention to detail, optimizing and knowledge.
Vanguard had some great examples of how to turn classes with simpler roles to have more versatility in combat, and I am pretty confident on the combat side at least Pantheon will deliver interesting and fun mechanics for their target audience - Better than eq, better than vg

About UI I totally agree it is very very important and it can be the difference that makes a non-vet stay or leave. And I do hope Pantheon will try to attract players who havent necessary played eq or pre story driven themparks. I miss the modern eq client when I play eq emus, so much that I gave up on tak, and even the modern eq client is horribly bad compared to newer games.

Nightbringe1

ste2000 said:

I was reading Shroud of the Avatar review which in my view is pretty spot on (By the way congratulations on the reviewer, finally someone who makes real reviews instead of free advertisement).
But I was more amused by the many user comments claiming that Old School concept is now outdated taking SotA as the obvious example.

Well, whoever thinks that SotA is what Old School is all about didn't understand what Old School games means to many of us (Certainly Richard Garriot didn't have a clue).
Old School is a play-style where hard challenges, time invested and social interaction ALL matter, it is not just about the "Old Feel".

Pantheon should not make the same mistakes some Old School games like SotA are making, we don't want a carbon copy of 1998 games, we want a modern interpretation of older MMOs with a fresh twist.
A good start for Pantheon is the choice of not having an In-game Shop, which is the only modern feature an Old School game should do without.
Apart from that I believe Pantheon should enbrace many of modern features that make playng a MMO less tedious.
In particular they should focus on two elements:

1) The UI
Seriously, I don't understand why developers keep ignoring this fundamental feature, getting the UI right can make or break a game.
All I can say is that the reason why I don't play EQ today is because I can't handle the cumbersome and clunky UI.
Same reason why I could never get into FFIX.
Put it simple, I want to fight Mobs, I don't want to spend my time fighting with the UI to get the most simple thing done.
I noticed that Pantheon UI looks almost the same as the original EQ UI.
I suggest Visionary Realms to update the UI to something more modern, something more Plug 'n Play, when I play I want to forget the UI is there.

2) Combat 
I am a fan of Slow Combat which is what Pantheon is aiming for, so far so good.
But Slow Combat doesn't have to be boring and repetitive.
I always want to be on the edge of my seat when I fight a mob, I don't want to be on autopilot, combat should be engaging and reactive, it should be about using the right skill at the right time.
Taking EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW as a blueprint it's a good start but I believe we should not stop there, why not adding some Action Combat in the mix, at least for Melee Classes?
Of course I don't want to turn Pantheon into a mindless click fest, maybe just limit Action Skills for special Combos to use once in a while to spice up the Combat (something like Black Desert or AoC combos would be great).
I also believe that VR should not understimate the importance of good Combat Animation, the visuals alone could make the Combat look more exciting.

These are so many areas Old School games can improve without betraying the Old School concept, such as crafting, economy, social features.
I am not asking VR to reinvent the wheel, I still want a strong EQ feel.
I just hope that  they are not stuck in the 1998 and make full use of modern technology and features to revive a play-style that really never evolved since 2004.

1. I really don't mind the EQ UI that much. I spent over a decade with it and it just feels natural to me. What I don't want is an 8-10 button hotbar with everything on a cooldown timer.

2. I enjoy the slower combat of EQ. What I don't enjoy in my MMO's is twitch gaming or  action combat. If I want twitch, I'll play on a console or load up Path of Exile.

I do hope the combat animation is smooth and well done. I want good visual effects on my spells and characters. I want to be able to pet tank, tank or root rot. I want fights to last longer than six seconds. I want challenging content and a death penalty that makes you notice where you are and think about what you are doing.

PottedPlant22

Some elements will call back to the old days of MMOs and some elements will be modern.  The game will be made and you'll either play it and like it or you won't. 

svann

Nightbringe1 said:

1. I really don't mind the EQ UI that much. I spent over a decade with it and it just feels natural to me. What I don't want is an 8-10 button hotbar with everything on a cooldown timer.

2. I enjoy the slower combat of EQ. What I don't enjoy in my MMO's is twitch gaming or  action combat. If I want twitch, I'll play on a console or load up Path of Exile.

I do hope the combat animation is smooth and well done. I want good visual effects on my spells and characters. I want to be able to pet tank, tank or root rot. I want fights to last longer than six seconds. I want challenging content and a death penalty that makes you notice where you are and think about what you are doing.

What part of #1 is it you dont like, and how would you change it?

A. Is 8-10 hotbar buttons too few?  In modern EQ you can add hotbars (up to 10 total) and keep all the spells, abilities, AA's, user defined macros, and clickies you want. 
B. I hope you didnt mean 8-10 action buttons was too many.
C. What would you replace cooldown timers with?  It seems to me that if you dont have cooldowns then you have twitch combat.  Even without aiming, being able to hit an ability as fast as you can hit the button is still twitch imo.  And even if its not twitch, its just bad.

delete5230

Fights need to last long enough to be able to manipulate the fights, even on trash mobs.


I miss the Vanilla days of second generation mmo's like EQ2 Vanguard and WoW.

I miss stuns, roots, sap, knock backs, freezing and self healing on mobs that you thought would be a sure loose......I love long fights and lot's of abilities

ste2000

svann said:

Nightbringe1 said:

What part of #1 is it you dont like, and how would you change it?

A. Is 8-10 hotbar buttons too few?  In modern EQ you can add hotbars (up to 10 total) and keep all the spells, abilities, AA's, user defined macros, and clickies you want. 
B. I hope you didnt mean 8-10 action buttons was too many.
C. What would you replace cooldown timers with?  It seems to me that if you dont have cooldowns then you have twitch combat.  Even without aiming, being able to hit an ability as fast as you can hit the button is still twitch imo.  And even if its not twitch, its just bad.

I ll try to second guess his point of view as it is probably similar to mine.
Personally a 10 slot bar is not enough, we need at least 2 or three.
Having said that I hope VR don't go overboard with it. I take EQ2 for example, as a Tank I had to use 5 bars only to Tank properly (Raids) plus other 2 more bars for Utilities.
I think that's way too much, to make things worse in EQ2 was the fact that most of the skills were very similar and almost a replica of each other and because of the long cool downs for example I was forced to use 20 different attacking Skills to be able to sustain decent DPS.
My action Bar set in EQ2 was something like this:
- 20x Attack Skills
- 10x Defensive Skills
- 6x Taunting Skills
- 7x Short term Buffs
- 7x Long Term Buffs
- 6x Potions Slots
- 10x Crafting/Gathering Skills
- 10x Utilities (Call-Home, Riding etch)

About the Cooldowns, I guess he meant Shared Cooldowns, which means that when you use a certain skill automatically other 5 goes on Cooldown at the same time, literally taking away the versatility of using different skills, as with a Shared Cooldown you will use only one (the most powerful) of the 5 that share the CD.
I think skills should be different enough from each other and Cooldowns should be applied on a singular basis not to a group of skills, in that way we should avoid Skill repetition resulting in a more clean and neat UI Bar Set.

hercules

well my understanding is they are not trying to replicate the features of 1999 but rather the spirit of playing together by grouping and making the world more adrenaline pumped by making misadventure dangerous
of course some features from original EQ  as it was in 1999 apart from UI IMHO should not make it to modern days
super slow levelling
forced to do nothing if no group(group should be so rewarding no one would want to solo if there was a group up).that actually happened in EQ back in 2000 when my rogue with epic would sit outside looking for group for ages and then try solo a low green mob and barely survive
naked spawning 1-2 hours away if dead
leaving some small amount of exp debt i think is good though

SavageHorizon

delete5230 said:

Fights need to last long enough to be able to manipulate the fights, even on trash mobs.


I miss the Vanilla days of second generation mmo's like EQ2 Vanguard and WoW.

I miss stuns, roots, sap, knock backs, freezing and self healing on mobs that you thought would be a sure loose......I love long fights and lot's of abilities

Same here, anyone who thinks we are going to get an UI like EQ is taking the devs for idiots and actually taking the old school saying as literally. 

hercules

as an old time player i seen UI evolve from the drag to anywhere on screen UO to EQ style to WoW and beyond.
If anything has certainly gone right with mmorpg its how UI evolved
so doubt any newer mmorpg will ever go backwards on UI

Dullahan

They are definitely leaning more towards EQ in less active abilities.

They want to bring back scenarios where knowledge matters and players have to make decisions on which abilities to choose in a given encounter, not how fast you can utilize a rotation or how well you can aim your mouse.

There is a limited ability bar similar to the EQ spell bar, but also hotbars which allow clickable items and probably other racial abilities or skills to be used. Looks to be very much like EQ.

ste2000

hercules said:

as an old time player i seen UI evolve from the drag to anywhere on screen UO to EQ style to WoW and beyond.
If anything has certainly gone right with mmorpg its how UI evolved
so doubt any newer mmorpg will ever go backwards on UI

Ask Richard Garriot, he would like to disagree on that.
And that's also the reason why I started this thread, I found it unsettling that a "modern" game like SotA has such an atrocious UI simply copy/pasted from a 1999 game all in the name of "Old School".
Well, I am an Old Schooler but that's not what I ask from an Old School game.
I just hope Brad and Co don't do the same mistake, we like Old School concepts we don't want a copy/paste of an older game with better graphics.
All I am saying is, don't understimate the UI like many devs seems to do.

Hrimnir

ste2000 said:

hercules said:

as an old time player i seen UI evolve from the drag to anywhere on screen UO to EQ style to WoW and beyond.
If anything has certainly gone right with mmorpg its how UI evolved
so doubt any newer mmorpg will ever go backwards on UI

Ask Richard Garriot, he would like to disagree on that.
And that's also the reason why I started this thread, I found it unsettling that a "modern" game like SotA has such an atrocious UI simply copy/pasted from a 1999 game all in the name of "Old School".
Well, I am an Old Schooler but that's not what I ask from an Old School game.
I just hope Brad and Co don't do the same mistake, we like Old School concepts we don't want a copy/paste of an older game with better graphics.
All I am saying is, don't understimate the UI like many devs seems to do.

I agree, it's surprisingly easy for developers to get lost in their grand vision and lose the forest for the trees.  Don't take anything for granted.

That being said, I'm one of those people that prefers function over form.  EQ's UI started out pretty bad but got a LOT better over the years. It wasn't pretty but it was functional, and frankly to me at the end of the day that's all that matters.  Would I like it to look good also? yes, of course, but not to the detriment of function.

ste2000

Hrimnir said:

ste2000 said:

I agree, it's surprisingly easy for developers to get lost in their grand vision and lose the forest for the trees.  Don't take anything for granted.

That being said, I'm one of those people that prefers function over form.  EQ's UI started out pretty bad but got a LOT better over the years. It wasn't pretty but it was functional, and frankly to me at the end of the day that's all that matters.  Would I like it to look good also? yes, of course, but not to the detriment of function.

By "look" I meant the whole package not just the aesthetics.
Functionality and accessibility should be priority for an UI.
EQ UI was really clunky and not very intuitive, so I hope they copy the UI from more modern MMOs.