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Pantheon will have impeccable timing on it's side

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    cheyane said:
    I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.

    well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW.  Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    cheyane said:
    Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.

    If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .

    Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo. 


    You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost. 


    If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation. 

    Take it on the chin lol. 
    Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,211
    waynejr2 said:
    cheyane said:
    I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.

    well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW.  Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
    I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    waynejr2 said:
    cheyane said:
    I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.

    well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW.  Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
    I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.

    they all have development cycles.  there is beta etc. So don't play that math it is crap.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,211
    waynejr2 said:
    waynejr2 said:
    cheyane said:
    I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.

    well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW.  Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
    I'll say something to dismiss that. 6 months is a tiny amount of time in the context of a development cycle as enormous as any of those three games. To pretend that CoH was the game that either of those juggernauts (at the time) looked to for inspiration is laughable.

    they all have development cycles.  there is beta etc. So don't play that math it is crap.
    What math is crap?

    Are you implying that WoW and EQ2 copied CoH to develop their quest system?
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Distopia said:
    cheyane said:
    Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.

    If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .

    Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo. 


    You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost. 


    If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation. 

    Take it on the chin lol. 
    Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.
    Actually as they were intended to compete head to head there would have been considerable borrowing of ideas from each other. That is why they released within days of each other. While this quest marker thing had precedents in other games one of these two (WoW & EQ2) would have incorporated the feature first and the other rapidly copied it during development. After this length of time we can't even guess which was first.

    In short EQ2 did influence WoW and WoW did influence EQ2.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Hrimnir said:
    It's wasn't WOW that bought us that 'quest by npc' it was EQ2 which came out before WOW. Some people like to blame everything on WOW but forget it was EQ2 that came first. 

    I would like to go back to the way EQ was by saying certain words to an NPC. An updated version of that system would be very interesting. 
    Dude, they came out within 3 weeks of each other. WoW is the one that popularized it.  Stop playing semantics.  If we want to be technical, DAOC had some of those style of quests, though it wasn't the only way of leveling. EQ2 was the same, you could actually get decent XP in dungeons and by killing mobs.  WoW on the other hand, from the beginning of release, questing was HEADS AND TAILS better than any other activity for gaining XP.
    Wow released 5 weeks after, yes but already Meridian 59 had quests back in '96. Yeah, it was stuff like killing rats in the moat and similar and it was not the main source of experience points but it was in many ways the grandfather of MMOs with trinity styled combat, customized characters (using sliders). levels, classes and relatively large servers.

    Wow was indeed far more focused on questing then any earlier games, but just barely so compared to EQ2 (which Wow couldn't exactly copy due to time). I fail to see the point here though.

    Anyways, quests were implemented originally to help new players and point players to new places. Later they started to use them as a way to lessen the grind and ironically they winded up being a huge grind in themselves.

    Pointing players in direction of stuff to do is good, constantly telling them exactly what to do isn't. Dynamic events is also grindy but for me they feels less so since at least there is some urgency and you don't get that full questlog that feels so annoying to grind off. But of course since DEs are cycled they can easily become super boring as well.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,571
    edited September 2016

    I really don't put much stock on who invented what.

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.


    - Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.

    - Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.

    - Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.


    It's all the " basic standards ".

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 14,138
    edited September 2016

    I really don't put much stock on who invented what.

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.


    - Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.

    - Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.

    - Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.


    It's all the " basic standards ".


    These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.


    I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,571
    Scot said:

    I really don't put much stock on who invented what.

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.


    - Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.

    - Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.

    - Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.


    It's all the " basic standards ".


    These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.


    I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.


    It's obvious that mmo's have taken the standard too far with arrows guiding you around the game, or hand holding.

    That's a TOTALLY DIFFRIENT SUBJECT.



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,003
    Scot said:

    I really don't put much stock on who invented what.

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.


    - Same with off-line shooter games....The standard was, run down hallways and pick up new guns and ammo.

    - Same with Todays off-line RPG's.... The standard is, kill everything in a room then loot the entire room.

    - Same with hack-and-slash.... The standard is, equip a flame thrower, circle and spray fire, then collect the loot.


    It's all the " basic standards ".


    These are not "standards" they hugely effect the nature of the MMO, how much exploration you do is directly linked to how many arrows guide you round the game. Less arrows, more exploration.


    I am not saying lets bin every question mark etc, but we need to realise there is a balance here. Did WoW go to far in hand holding? Probably, but certainly todays MMOs are way too guided, it is a solo experience in what is meant to be a MMORPG. But then that was the new player base they were chasing.


    It's obvious that mmo's have taken the standard too far with arrows guiding you around the game, or hand holding.

    That's a TOTALLY DIFFRIENT SUBJECT.



    Standard theme park MMORPGs have adopted these mechanics, titles such as EVE or even Albion Online have not.

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  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,905

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.

    Untrue.

    it is what became the worst of the gentrification of MMORPGs, but it was never, originally, the 'basics'. The 'basics were co-op and community, and the emergent gameplay that came from a basic open world.

    Quests, as in the WoW sense, were a serious misstep, not the 'basics'.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Vesavius said:

    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.

    Untrue.

    it is what became the worst of the gentrification of MMORPGs, but it was never, originally, the 'basics'. The 'basics were co-op and community, and the emergent gameplay that came from a basic open world.

    Quests, as in the WoW sense, were a serious misstep, not the 'basics'.
    I think the core of MMOs is more dungeons then quests. You pick a party and run dungeons with monsters and traps in them, just like people did with chainmail (predecessor of D&D).

    Most MMOs have some kind of quests, some many others few but some of them have been made with no quests, Lineage for example still have 3 million paying subscribers and while I don't know about now, I did play the beta in '01 (got 8 levels under max but I tired of it) and it didn't have any quests at all then at least. UO and Eve were not questgames either.

    But I don't think quests is a misstep, I just think they are implementing them badly. A MMO don't need 10K small easy quests you can complete in a few minutes without any difficulty. Fewer but more epic quests that feels meaningful. A quest is more to find the holy grail then go and mash 10 cockroaches in the kitchen.
    Also, I think that they tell us exactly what to do and where to do it is a mistake. Many of the quests could easily have multiple solutions and should require at least a little thought.

    I don't think open world is as typical of MMOs as dungeons are, dungeons go back to pen and paper and even to the early miniature games of the early 70s (Chainmail is from '71, it turned into D&D a few years later). To be fair is it really the group that is the really MMO typical thing, and the guild.

    Of course there have been earlier CRPGs with dungeons but I can't think of anything good where you actually run a full group of players through a dungeon, besides the MUDs.

    In any case: MMOs don't really need quests, they are just a simple way to point out the content to the players. Some quests are entertaining but most of them are rather silly FEDEX and pest control quests. Other games have used exploration to find the content, bounties instead of pest control quests, dynamic events which are a kind of open group quest but tend to offer a bit more choices since they usually have several objectives and you usually can pick what of them you want to do... Pantheon will use it's perception system that let you notice and find hidden content as you get better.

    I think the important thing is that the game feels like you actually are doing different things instead of just the same thing over and over. Click on a npc, go kill 10 mobs, turnin and continue gets insanely boring after a while. If the quests feels like a boring grind they could have been done better.

    Personally do I think some larger and tougher quests (maybe a few hundred in total), together with DEs and exploration (content you find by exploring the gameworld) is the best. Some variations are always good and I think people are getting a bit tired of the 3 minute quest.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,223
    Loke666 said:
    fodell54 said:
    I imagine this game with be very much like Vanguard. VG was a great game. It literally had everything that you could hope for in an mmo. However, it had very niche and had a very small player base.
    I don't have a crystal ball. However, if I was a guessing man. I'd say Pantheon won't turn out much different.
    The problem with that logic is that Vanguard was close to unplayable at launch and took a long time to fix, if Wow would have released in that shape and taken so long time fixing up it would too have a small playerbase.

    We have zero clue how well a well polished Vanguard would have done because of that (well, it wouldn't have done Wow good anyways so we maybe have a little clue) so explaining it's failure with that it was niche is unfair. 

    Id say I have some clue.  At release vanguard was so popular that all 8 faction starting areas were crowded-full of people.  If people had not left because of buggy programming it would have been a huge success.  The failure was not at all because of niche or it would not have had that many at start.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:
    cheyane said:
    Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.

    If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .

    Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo. 


    You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost. 


    If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation. 

    Take it on the chin lol. 
    Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.
    Actually as they were intended to compete head to head there would have been considerable borrowing of ideas from each other. That is why they released within days of each other. While this quest marker thing had precedents in other games one of these two (WoW & EQ2) would have incorporated the feature first and the other rapidly copied it during development. After this length of time we can't even guess which was first.

    In short EQ2 did influence WoW and WoW did influence EQ2.
    That's a lot of conjecture on your part.

     Quest markers were in a lot of games prior to WOW and EQ2 in the single player world, especially games geared toward younger audiences. 

    Also who's to say where either got the idea from could have been from a dev conference/convention, and neither that made the pitch?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    cheyane said:
    Goodness you're rude there was no need to call me thick but I should return that compliment as a 2 week release between two games of such differing popularity is not at all significant as one game went on to gather millions by its side. It is natural anyone would associate the overhead quest indicator with WoW and not Everquest 2.

    If you find that objectionable take that up with WoW's popularity .

    Again it doesn't matter whether someone associates quest markers with WOW the fact remains that it was EQ2 that first introduced them in what was the first of the truly theme park mmo. 


    You can go round and round but unless WOW came before EQ2 you have lost. 


    If you want to have a conversation last on which mmo was more popular then that's another conversation. 

    Take it on the chin lol. 
    Being the first means squat in this sense, it's what set the precedent of it being popular that matters most, that is most definitely WOW. It wasn't EQ2 that influenced WOW.
    Actually as they were intended to compete head to head there would have been considerable borrowing of ideas from each other. That is why they released within days of each other. While this quest marker thing had precedents in other games one of these two (WoW & EQ2) would have incorporated the feature first and the other rapidly copied it during development. After this length of time we can't even guess which was first.

    In short EQ2 did influence WoW and WoW did influence EQ2.
    That's a lot of conjecture on your part.

     Quest markers were in a lot of games prior to WOW and EQ2 in the single player world, especially games geared toward younger audiences. 

    Also who's to say where either got the idea from could have been from a dev conference/convention, and neither that made the pitch?
    Strange rewriting of what I said. Yes there were a lot of precedents in other games. No we cannot say with any certainty where the idea to incorporate this feature in either game came from.

    But what I did say is that once either of the two incorporated this feature, then the other would have become aware of it (they were watching each other that closely). Having become aware of it they would have to consider doing the same thing. Which was 'first' well neither it had been done before, which was in the lead on incorporating this feature? Impossible to know after so much time has past and does it matter anyway? 
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:

    Also who's to say where either got the idea from could have been from a dev conference/convention, and neither that made the pitch?
     Impossible to know after so much time has past and does it matter anyway? 
    Not to the points originally being made, which was WOW is where most influence on the genre going forward came from, it popularized the questing concept, as it popularized the modern concept of the MMORPG.

    That was the point I was making, which is what I meant by EQ2 didn't influence WOW (at least in that manner).. As both were in development at the same time, EQ2 wasn't a released product that could be broken down to draw influence from, nothing it offered had been proven to be successful enough to do so (it wasn't an actual product yet). 

    Also a reminder: it was your rebuttal I was responding to, if it didn't matter why was there one to quote? :)

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Hrimnir said:
    Scott23 said:
    EQ was Neverquest not because it lacked quests - the majority of quests were 'not worth' doing.  The xp rewards were minimal and the item rewards for the most part useless (it there was an item reward at all).

    At one point I did one of the mail runs (to Feerot I think) and it took roughly half an hour (as a bard with speed song).  I got a few silver and 100? exp.  It was much more rewarding to get a group or even circle kite for that time and end up way ahead of the game reward wise.  In later expansions they had some neat multi-stage quests that were worth doing (epics and coldain prayer shawl immediately leap to mind).

    People will take the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to get a group and camp mobs - guess what?  People will group and camp mobs.  If it is more efficient to solo - people will solo.  That's just human nature.

    Your last point is particularly accurate.  However I would just like to clarify, when EQ came out, it was not using the term "quest" in the way that we currently interpret quests in MMO's.  When they said Quest, they meant in the literal sense of the word, as in "a journey made in search of something" or "a long and difficult effort to find or do something" (per Merriam-Webster).

    Point being, getting your buddies together to go down deep into a dungeon and find some phat lewtz was a quest.  Unfortunately we've been poisoned by WoW and "modern" mmo's that Quest = "Task to be completed given by an NPC".


    You make a very good point that I hadn't really considered before.  My friends and I never interpreted it that way.  We always laughed about how the least satisfying portion of the game was the quest structure (speaking about 'vanilla' EQ).
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Hrimnir said:
    Scott23 said:
    EQ was Neverquest not because it lacked quests - the majority of quests were 'not worth' doing.  The xp rewards were minimal and the item rewards for the most part useless (it there was an item reward at all).

    At one point I did one of the mail runs (to Feerot I think) and it took roughly half an hour (as a bard with speed song).  I got a few silver and 100? exp.  It was much more rewarding to get a group or even circle kite for that time and end up way ahead of the game reward wise.  In later expansions they had some neat multi-stage quests that were worth doing (epics and coldain prayer shawl immediately leap to mind).

    People will take the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to get a group and camp mobs - guess what?  People will group and camp mobs.  If it is more efficient to solo - people will solo.  That's just human nature.

    Your last point is particularly accurate.  However I would just like to clarify, when EQ came out, it was not using the term "quest" in the way that we currently interpret quests in MMO's.  When they said Quest, they meant in the literal sense of the word, as in "a journey made in search of something" or "a long and difficult effort to find or do something" (per Merriam-Webster).

    Point being, getting your buddies together to go down deep into a dungeon and find some phat lewtz was a quest.  Unfortunately we've been poisoned by WoW and "modern" mmo's that Quest = "Task to be completed given by an NPC".


    Hrimnir is right,

    Quests should be long and hard.  NOT to be confused with chain quest where you can't add other players to help because their not up to part 4 of the chain !

    The kill 5 rat quest should be limited to 1-5 level so you can figure out your dynamics.

    But what about the kill level 50 rats quest?  Who is going to take care of them?  What if they get into the newbie area.  Oh the humanity :)

    I have never liked that the menial tasks are called quests.  I don't particularly mind that they exist - they just shouldn't be given the "The world will end if you don't deliver this cheese to the mayor" type of hype.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 4,837
    I want what you're smoking
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited September 2016
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    Also who's to say where either got the idea from could have been from a dev conference/convention, and neither that made the pitch?
     Impossible to know after so much time has past and does it matter anyway? 
    Not to the points originally being made, which was WOW is where most influence on the genre going forward came from, it popularized the questing concept, as it popularized the modern concept of the MMORPG.

    That was the point I was making, which is what I meant by EQ2 didn't influence WOW (at least in that manner).. As both were in development at the same time, EQ2 wasn't a released product that could be broken down to draw influence from, nothing it offered had been proven to be successful enough to do so (it wasn't an actual product yet). 

    Also a reminder: it was your rebuttal I was responding to, if it didn't matter why was there one to quote? :)
    You don't think the two companies were closely watching each other?

     Perhaps you were unaware that both companies were drawing from the same pool of Everquest raiders for their closed beta testing, with some top guilds being tapped by both companies. Blizzard even offered incentives for guilds to move from Everquest to WoW. These people undoubtedly leaked information about the games they were testing in their feedback. 

    Of course you are right Blizzard and WoW did have the most influence on the genre after release because of their massive success. But the point originally being made was not this, it was who was first, and the answer (as stated by others) is neither.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,027
    svann said:
    Loke666 said:
    fodell54 said:
    I imagine this game with be very much like Vanguard. VG was a great game. It literally had everything that you could hope for in an mmo. However, it had very niche and had a very small player base.
    I don't have a crystal ball. However, if I was a guessing man. I'd say Pantheon won't turn out much different.
    The problem with that logic is that Vanguard was close to unplayable at launch and took a long time to fix, if Wow would have released in that shape and taken so long time fixing up it would too have a small playerbase.

    We have zero clue how well a well polished Vanguard would have done because of that (well, it wouldn't have done Wow good anyways so we maybe have a little clue) so explaining it's failure with that it was niche is unfair. 

    Id say I have some clue.  At release vanguard was so popular that all 8 faction starting areas were crowded-full of people.  If people had not left because of buggy programming it would have been a huge success.  The failure was not at all because of niche or it would not have had that many at start.
    Almost every mmo has a ton of people at launch.  It has never been an indication of how the mmo would look a few months down the road.  I think you might just have wishful thinking here, or your delusional.  The truth is, no one knows how well this mmo would of done if it wasn't so broken at launch.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,530
    waynejr2 said:
    cheyane said:
    I betaed Asheron Call 2 and I recalled something like that but wasn't very sure about it so I thought I might have imagined it and decided that it may have not been an accurate recollection. Thanks for confirming my memory @Kyleran. It explained why both EQ2 and WoW came up with the same idea around the same time.

    well even if you want to dismiss AC2 you still have the big problem of quests in City of Heroes which came out 6 months prior to EQ2 and WOW.  Or are you going to say something to dismiss that too.
    I was talking about overhead quest markers. I am not sure what you're criticising me for ? I was not the one who said Everquest 2 was the first to introduce quest markers. I was not talking about questing per se.
    Chamber of Chains
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 281
    edited September 2016


    Yellow question marks, npc's giving quest, what quest were....It's just the basics of mmo's.

    It's all the " basic standards ".

    /sigh I feel sorry for you and anyone who thinks yellow question marks are the "basic standards" of what quests were.  You must have missed out on the time before the genre changed.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    svann said:
    Loke666 said:
    The problem with that logic is that Vanguard was close to unplayable at launch and took a long time to fix, if Wow would have released in that shape and taken so long time fixing up it would too have a small playerbase.

    We have zero clue how well a well polished Vanguard would have done because of that (well, it wouldn't have done Wow good anyways so we maybe have a little clue) so explaining it's failure with that it was niche is unfair. 
    Id say I have some clue.  At release vanguard was so popular that all 8 faction starting areas were crowded-full of people.  If people had not left because of buggy programming it would have been a huge success.  The failure was not at all because of niche or it would not have had that many at start.
    As I remember it they sold around 250K copies around launch which was fine for it's time but not super impressive. If it wasn't buggy it could have gained more players (back then MMOs still gained players after launch instead of hitting peak 3 weeks after launch) or not but since it didn't happen your situation is theoretical and can't be proved either way.

    But the number it had on start was probably partly due to some hype and the rest were former EQ players who enjoy that type of gameplay.

     The idea that anything that doesn't focus on the casual soloplayers will fail is wrong, you can't put the rather large group players together with small group like FFA full loot PvP or permadeathers, the group fans are still a few million players and those players are far more faithful with their game then the casuals.

    A good enough game focusing on these players can actually get a few million players, they were the main target of vanilla Wow (but that changed rather fast). I don't think Vanguard could have been that large even if it released in great shape, half a mil tops and I don't see Pantheon with 3.5M subs either nut if the game is good enough I could see it with 750K players which would be good and could prove that other player groups then super casuals matter as well.

    Vanguards failure was as I said earlier the crappy launch, anything else is just speculation.
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