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Pantheon will have impeccable timing on it's side

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,232

    Have you ever seen topics about World of Warcraft and it's rise to power ?  Well if you haven't here's the story.

    Many say it's success was do to it's timing.  MMO's were still in their infancy.  Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  As good as these games were they need polish, they needed structure and story.  Developers knew this, hence we got several popular mmos.  EQ2, DAOC, FF11, CoH, WOW, and EVE just to name a few......BUT during this crucial time of feeding the starving one game stood out with its pristine everything.

    That game was World of Warcraft. 

    It had Graphics that played on a toaster, it had story and its lore, It was an extremely large world for its time, Several starting areas and zones, it was seamless in it's open world, and catered to all ages............ALL THIS WITH IMPECCABLE TIMING !!!


    Well, we went full circle and were back at that time again !............Players are once again starving, exactly where we were back in 2003.

    This topic came to me because of a topic on the general forums.  Something hit me like a ton of bricks. This guy posted a Youtube from a popular mmo reviewer about up coming games for 2016 and 17.

    There "ALL" Asian grinders with cash shops !........For the most part this is what we got !

    Looking on all Youtubes this is all their is.  The West has given up, were back to where we started.  The crowed here had changed hands, everyone here likes games online, not mmos........It may as well changed to an automotive forum, where people talk about car parts.  One group moved out and another moved in.  BUT UNDERSTAND THE REAL MMO PEOPLE ARE STILL OUT THEIR.  Infact new mmo players are waiting to be born.


    Pantheon Rise of the Fallen has a chance, a very big chance as long as they don't blow it !!!!!!!!......Take your time !!!!!!  


    THIS IS NOT ABOUT WORLD OF WARCRAFT.......IT'S ABOUT TIMING !!!!!!......PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS. 

    I think you've got history a bit wrong, or at least neglected a very important aspect of the WoW phenomenon.  Blizzard had legions of players for their Warcraft RTS series, some believe that population was in excess of 20 million players.  Blizzard successfully migrated these players from the RTS games and encouraged them to come to Azeroth and experience World of Warcraft.

    Yes, WoW was a polished game at launch, but Blizzard had a captive audience (the big competitor in the RTS field was Westworld, makers of Command & Conquer) ready to at least give their new offering a try.  The timing of its release was immaterial, in my opinion.  They had brand loyalty -- lots of players wanting to play their game, far more than larger, more popular IPs (LotR, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.) have ever managed.

    Pantheon does not have a massive following of players already playing in another genre.  Neither did Everquest Next or Camelot Unlimited or Crowfall or any other game.  There is no chance of Pantheon or any other game duplicating the success level of WoW.

    The big assumption in the original post is that 'the real MMO people are still out there'.  They may be, but they have divided and sub-divided or simply moved on.  The assumption the developers of all the nostalgic based games are making is that the people are still there and they have forgotten why they moved on in the first place.  People migrated from EQ1, AC, UO and others because of the newer convenience features offered by WoW, and later other games.  Harsh death penalties went away, long corpse runs were forgotten, slow travel was left behind as new games introduced convenience features.  Reverting back as an industry is only going to remind people why they left -- the time commitment is unforgiving.

    As always, I believe the way forward for the genre isn't reverting back to 1999.  The way forward has to be in the future.  So far, all I've heard about Pantheon is the parts that someone implemented in 1999.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,350
    You can't compare Wow's timing with any game,that was all about millions of NEW DSL gamers.

    Timing now a days is merely to do with BORED gamer's who will buy anything if nothing else is competing with it.However with such a massive flooded market,these instant success stories soon die off within a couple months after the hype.
    Wow's era had so very few games to compete with and marketing back then was quite shallow,unlike now a days where all websites BS and hype any advertiser.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,536
    If I recall accurately OP you have never played Everquest. I remember you wistfully saying so on one of the threads.

    Those of us who have played Everquest can perhaps  grasp more clearly why the genre has changed and why it took the direction it did and why WoW succeeded when it did. Since we saw and lived through the changes your predictions about Pantheon are mere hopes and not based on anything solid I'm afraid to say.

    Personally I would like it to do well but it's a pipe dream and even Brad I'm sure expects around 300k at most. Don't place so much faith in the game until you actually play it.
    Chamber of Chains
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    Mendel said:

    Have you ever seen topics about World of Warcraft and it's rise to power ?  Well if you haven't here's the story.

    Many say it's success was do to it's timing.  MMO's were still in their infancy.  Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  As good as these games were they need polish, they needed structure and story.  Developers knew this, hence we got several popular mmos.  EQ2, DAOC, FF11, CoH, WOW, and EVE just to name a few......BUT during this crucial time of feeding the starving one game stood out with its pristine everything.

    That game was World of Warcraft. 

    It had Graphics that played on a toaster, it had story and its lore, It was an extremely large world for its time, Several starting areas and zones, it was seamless in it's open world, and catered to all ages............ALL THIS WITH IMPECCABLE TIMING !!!


    Well, we went full circle and were back at that time again !............Players are once again starving, exactly where we were back in 2003.

    This topic came to me because of a topic on the general forums.  Something hit me like a ton of bricks. This guy posted a Youtube from a popular mmo reviewer about up coming games for 2016 and 17.

    There "ALL" Asian grinders with cash shops !........For the most part this is what we got !

    Looking on all Youtubes this is all their is.  The West has given up, were back to where we started.  The crowed here had changed hands, everyone here likes games online, not mmos........It may as well changed to an automotive forum, where people talk about car parts.  One group moved out and another moved in.  BUT UNDERSTAND THE REAL MMO PEOPLE ARE STILL OUT THEIR.  Infact new mmo players are waiting to be born.


    Pantheon Rise of the Fallen has a chance, a very big chance as long as they don't blow it !!!!!!!!......Take your time !!!!!!  


    THIS IS NOT ABOUT WORLD OF WARCRAFT.......IT'S ABOUT TIMING !!!!!!......PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS. 

    I think you've got history a bit wrong, or at least neglected a very important aspect of the WoW phenomenon.  Blizzard had legions of players for their Warcraft RTS series, some believe that population was in excess of 20 million players.  Blizzard successfully migrated these players from the RTS games and encouraged them to come to Azeroth and experience World of Warcraft.

    Yes, WoW was a polished game at launch, but Blizzard had a captive audience (the big competitor in the RTS field was Westworld, makers of Command & Conquer) ready to at least give their new offering a try.  The timing of its release was immaterial, in my opinion.  They had brand loyalty -- lots of players wanting to play their game, far more than larger, more popular IPs (LotR, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.) have ever managed.

    Pantheon does not have a massive following of players already playing in another genre.  Neither did Everquest Next or Camelot Unlimited or Crowfall or any other game.  There is no chance of Pantheon or any other game duplicating the success level of WoW.

    The big assumption in the original post is that 'the real MMO people are still out there'.  They may be, but they have divided and sub-divided or simply moved on.  The assumption the developers of all the nostalgic based games are making is that the people are still there and they have forgotten why they moved on in the first place.  People migrated from EQ1, AC, UO and others because of the newer convenience features offered by WoW, and later other games.  Harsh death penalties went away, long corpse runs were forgotten, slow travel was left behind as new games introduced convenience features.  Reverting back as an industry is only going to remind people why they left -- the time commitment is unforgiving.

    As always, I believe the way forward for the genre isn't reverting back to 1999.  The way forward has to be in the future.  So far, all I've heard about Pantheon is the parts that someone implemented in 1999.


    All good points, popularity and past history play a big part.

    Will the message about Pantheon got out their ?.....It's hard to say, most here on mmorpg.com know about it.  But who are we?  Were a small percent.

    I hate marketing, it used to be about advertising.  Now it's about tricking.


    If the game is good " word will definitely spread ".

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2016
    cheyane said:
    If I recall accurately OP you have never played Everquest. I remember you wistfully saying so on one of the threads.

    Those of us who have played Everquest can perhaps  grasp more clearly why the genre has changed and why it took the direction it did and why WoW succeeded when it did. Since we saw and lived through the changes your predictions about Pantheon are mere hopes and not based on anything solid I'm afraid to say.

    Personally I would like it to do well but it's a pipe dream and even Brad I'm sure expects around 300k at most. Don't place so much faith in the game until you actually play it.


    My only concern is how well it's done. 

    People are guided into the barn like cows. No choices.  

    People have never been given a choice when the industry changed to Unicorns and Rainbows.  I'm also using the assumption that mmo players are starving and will play anything, but it's not what they want.

    This is not based on fact, but my years here studying hypes and let downs. 

    I really hate to say this, but it's amazing the resilience of how people can't learn from mistakes of let downs, they seem to turn around and do it again !!!!!!!......Maybe it's because they are starving for a good mmo no matter what.

    THE GOOD NEWS they are starving and Pantheon should fill the void.  If the game is well made, it will be big !



    It's like credit cards, they just don't catch on

    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     OP, Where did you buy your rose colored glasses? I've been looking for some. lol

     On topic though, WoW's timing was impeccable yes. The timing of Pantheon however will be questionable, as it's around the expected release of Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, and Star Citizen. I for one will be much more likely to spend my time trying out those games rather than Pantheon, especially with what's been currently shown as possible game play. 
  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421
    OP, I have watched live streams of this game and it looks like ass. It will not be anything more than a 6 dressed up as a 9, and that's only if they change their animations and models completely, which is extremely unlikely as has already been pointed out in this thread.

    I will happily eat these words however if the game does actually end up being good. I'm not immune to the lack of a decent MMORPG to waste my life in.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2016
    LIOKI said:
    OP, I have watched live streams of this game and it looks like ass. It will not be anything more than a 6 dressed up as a 9, and that's only if they change their animations and models completely, which is extremely unlikely as has already been pointed out in this thread.

    I will happily eat these words however if the game does actually end up being good. I'm not immune to the lack of a decent MMORPG to waste my life in.


    I understand and agree,

    I have to admit I have my worries, The streams are not that good.

    If Pantheon releases in anything close to that state it will fail.  Graphics and animations are not important to me but they have to be better than the given footage.  I could even live with a cartoon style because it's more about gameplay.  Cartoons like wow is a much MUCH safer road.  People would get over it if the game was done well.  With the realism look, this opens a door for a lot of controversy no matter what half the players think.  People will argue graphics forever with the real look.

    Managers can often be extremely close minded and stubborn, they can easily do more harm than good if they are stuck in the past or fixated.  Anyone with long standing wisdom in the workforce would know what I'm talking about.  Sophisticated is not always channeled in a good way.  I hope this is not the case.  

    I'm basing everything on faith here.....It could be our last chance.....Impeccable timing is on their side.

    Lets hope they don't blow it !

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,657
    LIOKI said:
    OP, I have watched live streams of this game and it looks like ass. It will not be anything more than a 6 dressed up as a 9, and that's only if they change their animations and models completely, which is extremely unlikely as has already been pointed out in this thread.
    I have to correct you here.. along with a few others who focus their opinions on current animations and models. The team VERY clearly stated numerous times that what you see are purely placeholder models and animations, which will be completely replaced. The reason for this is that it is important to get gameplay and machanics right first. In fact ALL game development & productions the final artwork is done late in the process.

    Maybe in the excitement we are forgetting how early Pantheon is in development at this point?
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,691
    kjempff said:

    I have to correct you here.. along with a few others who focus their opinions on current animations and models. The team VERY clearly stated numerous times that what you see are purely placeholder models and animations, which will be completely replaced. The reason for this is that it is important to get gameplay and machanics right first. In fact ALL game development & productions the final artwork is done late in the process.

    Maybe in the excitement we are forgetting how early Pantheon is in development at this point?
    Balderdash.

    Artists can't do anything for the game besides create art. They won't have the skills to help with gameplay and mechanics any more than their programmers don't have the skills to create art. At this point most of the artwork you see is final if they're really planning their release in about 1 1/2 years.
     
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    delete5230 said:

    Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  
    I do not agree with this. To the contrary, one of the reasons I am here is that EQ had so many things that later games lacked. EQ was far from being a "shell." 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,006
    Amathe said:
    delete5230 said:

    Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  
    I do not agree with this. To the contrary, one of the reasons I am here is that EQ had so many things that later games lacked. EQ was far from being a "shell." 
    Pretty sure the OP never played any of the pre-WOW titles in their heydays, or he would know how feature rich and diverse so many were.

    We've gone backwards so far.....

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  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 951
    LIOKI said:
    If this was truly the case, the EQ servers would be overflowing with players right now.
    They arent because like a lot of MMOs they have aged and changed quite a bit. There is a reason something like project 99 has a sizable audience, hell WoW's vanilla  private servers had a pretty huge crowd....people clearly miss the old design choices.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I took a look at the game. It needs way more than timing fam. The placeholder excuse ain't gonna fly either. 

    I know folks love their classic games man, but honestly if the new devs are going to throwback LIKE THIS, you might as well go fire up the old stuff.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    I think we need to be realistic here. 

    Gamers are not starving. They have more games to play than ever.

    It is the oldschool MMORPG players who are starving. I count myself among them. However, there is not so many of us which is why there is a very little chance any "big game" will be made for us. There is not enough profit to be made on the relatively small crowd which is reluctant to touch cash shop with a stick.

    MMORPGs are going back to niche where they belong. Pantheon will be a niche game, not a huge one.

    While I think there is a possibility that one of the indie games becomes so great that it attracts large number of people outside of the traditional MMORPG crowd, I believe the possibility is rather low.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,162
    Warlyx said:
    lol , no way pantheon will be anything other than a forgotten game 1 month after release
    I think you underestimate how many EQ, FFXI, and Vanguard fans are on board with this. As long as they don't jump the gun and put it out to soon and it's polished it will do well. I won't be surprised if they have a loyal 75 to 100k following. Niche compared to large companies however very good for an indie mmo with a subscription.
  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 951
    @Cortex666 It might sound hipster or w/e but I would love to see MMORPGS go back to being niche. Like anything when it's made mainstream it's over produced and made for the lowest common denominator. Everything feels like it's made by corporations to get the max amount of money and it straps away the passion.

    For MMOS that was unfortunately WoW and it brought on too many copy cats and practices I don't remember in pretty WoW MMOS like sub fee games having cash shops (for things outside of like server transfers or more character slots ).

    I also would miss F2P games because of how so many turn ugly with their cash shop tactics.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,162
    zanfire said:
    LIOKI said:
    If this was truly the case, the EQ servers would be overflowing with players right now.
    They arent because like a lot of MMOs they have aged and changed quite a bit. There is a reason something like project 99 has a sizable audience, hell WoW's vanilla  private servers had a pretty huge crowd....people clearly miss the old design choices.
    Exactly, your talking about a going on 18 year old game that has changed quite a bit over the years. Not only that but they recently made old school progression servers and wouldn't you know it those are now the fullest servers they have. 
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,908
    zanfire said:
    @Cortex666 It might sound hipster or w/e but I would love to see MMORPGS go back to being niche. Like anything when it's made mainstream it's over produced and made for the lowest common denominator. Everything feels like it's made by corporations to get the max amount of money and it straps away the passion.

    For MMOS that was unfortunately WoW and it brought on too many copy cats and practices I don't remember in pretty WoW MMOS like sub fee games having cash shops (for things outside of like server transfers or more character slots ).

    I also would miss F2P games because of how so many turn ugly with their cash shop tactics.
    I do not think it sounds "hipster" (whatever that means :) ) at all. I actually believe that quite many people here would like to see MMORPGs go back to being niche. I count myself among them.

    I often see people calling for features / elements that are not very attractive for the masses, such as longer levelling process, harsh death penalties, challenging world and enemies, "forced" grouping, infrequent / rare item upgrades, meaningful and irriversible choices, etc. These are just some examples of the top of my head which, in my opinion, represent features which had to be eliminated from MMORPGs to make them more attractive for the masses.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,625
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    delete5230 said:

    Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  
    I do not agree with this. To the contrary, one of the reasons I am here is that EQ had so many things that later games lacked. EQ was far from being a "shell." 
    Pretty sure the OP never played any of the pre-WOW titles in their heydays, or he would know how feature rich and diverse so many were.

    We've gone backwards so far.....
    Literally they were not as feature rich as their current iterations or other modern games are.

    Brokers/auction houses/safe trading systems - not there - people had to use chat in order to trade.
    Grouping tools - and I'm not talkng about LFD. I'm talking about tools built into games to help groups.
    Account/character - between creation, renaming, etc - account and character features are much more robust now.

    What features were present in early games that aren't present now?
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  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    delete5230 said:

    Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  
    I do not agree with this. To the contrary, one of the reasons I am here is that EQ had so many things that later games lacked. EQ was far from being a "shell." 
    Pretty sure the OP never played any of the pre-WOW titles in their heydays, or he would know how feature rich and diverse so many were.

    We've gone backwards so far.....
    Literally they were not as feature rich as their current iterations or other modern games are.

    Brokers/auction houses/safe trading systems - not there - people had to use chat in order to trade.
    Grouping tools - and I'm not talkng about LFD. I'm talking about tools built into games to help groups.
    Account/character - between creation, renaming, etc - account and character features are much more robust now.

    What features were present in early games that aren't present now?
     DAoC had the player housing market system in 2003. Which not only had a safe and easy way to sell and buy items, but it made player housing more than just a novelty for milking cash shop items like they are now.

     Also it had a last name system after level 10 and you could change your last name at any time no credit card required. People would get creative, it was a fun part of social interaction. 

     It also had customization where it really counted because you could change your armor dye from a bunch of colors, and you didn't have to unlock them or swipe your credit card. 

     I'd argue that those grouping tools and queue systems, eliminated the need to create in game communities. Which has slowly killed large guilds, it seems every new mmo that comes out shrinks the guild cap a few more players each release. DAoC just had Guilds, and a Friends list. If you grouped with someone who you thought was a good player, or a cool person you added each other. 

    That's just one game out of the many listed. 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,532
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    delete5230 said:

    Early mmos such as UO, EQ1, and so on were shells of what was to come.  
    I do not agree with this. To the contrary, one of the reasons I am here is that EQ had so many things that later games lacked. EQ was far from being a "shell." 
    Pretty sure the OP never played any of the pre-WOW titles in their heydays, or he would know how feature rich and diverse so many were.

    We've gone backwards so far.....
    Literally they were not as feature rich as their current iterations or other modern games are.

    Brokers/auction houses/safe trading systems - not there - people had to use chat in order to trade.
    Grouping tools - and I'm not talkng about LFD. I'm talking about tools built into games to help groups.
    Account/character - between creation, renaming, etc - account and character features are much more robust now.

    What features were present in early games that aren't present now?
    Community

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  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421
    zanfire said:
    LIOKI said:
    If this was truly the case, the EQ servers would be overflowing with players right now.
    They arent because like a lot of MMOs they have aged and changed quite a bit. There is a reason something like project 99 has a sizable audience, hell WoW's vanilla  private servers had a pretty huge crowd....people clearly miss the old design choices.
    This makes sense. Players essentially are looking to go back to the community they had. Which also brings up the question why developers would make changes to a formula that is working and makes the player base happy? I played these older games, and I quit when poor changes were made, but I never really cared why. I guess I just thought there's always going to be another one to take it's place.

    I know they said in Pantheon that it was all placeholders, I brought it up in a live stream and was bombarded with the term...it's easy to throw out keywords and terms and let the player's imaginations take over as seen in a recent release of another game.....so as far as indie game developers go DTA.

  • BraindomeBraindome Member UncommonPosts: 959
    WoW was a phenomenon cause it could run on a toaster.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited August 2016

    Literally they were not as feature rich as their current iterations or other modern games are.

    Brokers/auction houses/safe trading systems - not there - people had to use chat in order to trade.
    Grouping tools - and I'm not talkng about LFD. I'm talking about tools built into games to help groups.
    Account/character - between creation, renaming, etc - account and character features are much more robust now.

    What features were present in early games that aren't present now?
    Community
    I truly think this is more of a societal issue than it is with games, even the communal games suffer in this day and age in this regard. People would quite simply prefer war against their neighbors rather than coming together to form a greater encompassing RP community. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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