Retention of achievement

Amathe

Suppose you play Pantheon and reach max level. Suppose further that it takes you 9 months to accomplish that. [I am not advocating that 9 months should be the number - it's just a placeholder in my hypothetical]. And lastly, suppose 9 months is the average amount of time it takes to level a character to max [ignoring variances like class, player skill, and so on]. 

Now you have an accomplishment - a max level character which represents 9 months of in game effort.

Next comes an expansion, and my question related to it. Does the company keep things as they are, where it will also take new players 9 months on average to reach whatever max level was in the original game. Or, as WoW does, do you modify the game with every expansion so that people can quickly "catch up" to the players who went before? In that way every expansion is basically a reset.

Personally, I hate the reset approach. I want other players to have to expend more or less the same time and effort I (and others) spent for the same rewards - not just that it be handed to them. 

Of course, the problem with doing that is attracting new players in the years to come. If you tell a prospective new player, "it's gonna take you 3 years to catch up, and when you do it will take 3 more years from there," well, it's hard to sell the game that way. 

What do you guys think? 

Kyleran

"Reach Max Level."

All your problems stem from this simple statement.

Nightbringe1

I dislike rapid advancement enough to level lock my characters in EQ II until all quests in my current level range are completed.

I really, really hate outleveling content before I have a chance to complete it.
Even if that content was released years ago.

baphamet

i think after the game has been launched for 10 years and they want to attract new players, maybe then they can do it. but right now they shouldn't be thinking about stuff like that.

i do think players will be able to power level other players which always helps. if you were to be a seasoned vet and know a friend that wants to start playing, you and your guild can help power level him if you want him high level faster.

power leveling was huge in EQ and i suspect it will be in this mmo as well.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Raidan_EQ

I agree I want Pantheon to be about the journey, and I want the experience from 1-max regardless of the time period (launch or expansions) to be the focus.

But.... a hypothetical idea.

Let's say Pantheon is highly successful, but between year 5-10 the numbers are starting to wane due to new players having to catch up and older players moving on

That's where I'd like to see the progeny system be used - ultimately rebooting Pantheon.

Perhaps between year 5-10 there would be content created for expansions along for the old with brand new content (basically creating a second game in parallel) that isn't released.  Once the original game is no longer profitable, have a progeny party and restart Pantheon to Pantheon 2.0 and retire characters perhaps with some perks for the salty retired vets in Pantheon 2.0.

But, to avoid everyone /ragequitting due to forced retirement - Perhaps have one server hosted on Pantheon 1.0 for players who still want to experience that content - maybe at a premium sub?

SavageHorizon

I don't care if it takes a year to level up as long as the journey is great. Anyone who played Vanguard knows how an mmo can make the journey to Max level great. 

svann

Disagree.
Say the first release goes from 0-100 and expansion goes from 101-200.  You had it easy leveling from 0-100 when there were people doing that same content to level with.   If you dont make it easier to do those levels then it will be nigh impossible for new people.

waynejr2

svann said:

Disagree.
Say the first release goes from 0-100 and expansion goes from 101-200.  You had it easy leveling from 0-100 when there were people doing that same content to level with.   If you dont make it easier to do those levels then it will be nigh impossible for new people.

I like this.  The OP might not like levels.  I bet he upgraded his starting gear and doesn't lament those items being replaced.

Mendel

I totally agree that the journey is the thing, rather than a dubious 'reached max level' accomplishment.  The problem that has existed in every MMORPG game is that a person starting on day 1, and a friend starting on day 10 are on two independent 'journeys'.  I want to play with my friend, but the difference in our starting dates affects the content and opportunities.  One player has to 'wait' -- doing nothing while the other catches up.  Waiting has never worked.  The 20th level character waiting for the 5th level to catch up, starts a second character.  When the original 5th level friend does catch up to the original 20th level, that player is now invested in their now 15th level second character.  The two friends are never really able to play as equals in the game.

Adding new content doesn't change the fact that the two character journeys are different.

laserit

svann said:

Disagree.
Say the first release goes from 0-100 and expansion goes from 101-200.  You had it easy leveling from 0-100 when there were people doing that same content to level with.   If you dont make it easier to do those levels then it will be nigh impossible for new people.

I hate the idea of fucking up previous content so people can bypass it. Let them start at 100 and bypass it, nerfing it fucks it up for everyone. The people who want to rush through to get current aren't happy and the people who want the vanilla experience aren't happy. Keep the content as it was originally intended for those who want to experience and enjoy it.

Amathe

svann said:

Disagree.
Say the first release goes from 0-100 and expansion goes from 101-200.  You had it easy leveling from 0-100 when there were people doing that same content to level with.   If you dont make it easier to do those levels then it will be nigh impossible for new people.

God bless you @svann for actually reading my post and speaking to the issue it posed, even if you disagree with my conclusion. 

Kahrek

As svann mentioned once an expansion (or more) separate the new player from current content they will have more difficulty progressing thru the original content simply because there are no players doing that content regularly. I am a bit on the fence regarding making leveling easier. I think that players should still need to progress thru the story but at the same time I want them to be able to catch up at a reasonable rate.

I would suggest a system that puts the story out there for people to play but eliminates the grind and extras. Increase XP so that a player levels appropriately from playing thru the content but eliminate the need to do all the sidequests and optional content. They are there, if someone wants to take it slow and take in the sights, let them but do not force it on them.

Implementing some sort of mentoring system would be essential for this to succeed. You reward max level players for doing early / old content with new players (FFXIV daily roulette are a good example of this) and you let the new player live thru the story, learn his / her class without feeling like he has to grind for a year just to be relevant to current content.

My 2 coppers worth.

Cheers,

GladDog

City of Heroes made it 8 years without an increase in the level cap.  There is no mantra requiring an increase in the cap.  Just make the rewards better and tougher.

svann

Mentoring would be a good idea.  Especially if content is tough enough that you NEED to group it.  Cant tell new people go find groups if there are no groups.

Dullahan

The time necessary for reaching higher levels will be reduced organically if Pantheon is modeled after EQ.

How it worked was, as new content was released, it afforded lower level players greater access to things that were previously rare and powerful. Ideally, you would want to control mudflation enough that it isn't a major problem that leads to total triviality, but gives a new player just enough of an advantage to move them along at a slightly accelerated rate.

In any game with a open, player driven economy, this will eventually take place to some degree. This will make meddling with experience rates unnecessary.

The worst case scenario, imo, is what WoW does by essentially resetting everyone with each new expac, placing them on a level playing field and undermining their previous efforts by replacing powerful items with stuff that is readily accessible to everyone (green quest rewards, etc).

Albatroes

The problem is that old content is usually made obsolete when an expansion drops in most games. If you master relevancy then there's no need to alter the leveling experience.

I hate to say it, but b&s kind of has a better grasp on making older content still relevant more so than other games to date (wow and FFXIV included). As tedious as it may be, people still have to run through old stuff to get BiS stuff, rather than just pumping their weapon up.

waynejr2

Kyleran said:

"Reach Max Level."

All your problems stem from this simple statement.

Come back when you max out all your skills in eve online and say that!

Dullahan

Albatroes said:

The problem is that old content is usually made obsolete when an expansion drops in most games. If you master relevancy then there's no need to alter the leveling experience.

I hate to say it, but b&s kind of has a better grasp on making older content still relevant more so than other games to date (wow and FFXIV included). As tedious as it may be, people still have to run through old stuff to get BiS stuff, rather than just pumping their weapon up.

Right. This is sort of implied in my response. The goal of expac content should not be to replace old content, but to simply offer an alternative.

In the case of higher level and raid content, it should simply extend it without completely undermining the previous. The goal should be to keep the progression path intact, requiring players to conquer previous raid content to prepare for the new.

waynejr2

GladDog said:

City of Heroes made it 8 years without an increase in the level cap.  There is no mantra requiring an increase in the cap.  Just make the rewards better and tougher.

City of Heroes was a great game!

Albatroes

Dullahan said:

Albatroes said:

The problem is that old content is usually made obsolete when an expansion drops in most games. If you master relevancy then there's no need to alter the leveling experience.

I hate to say it, but b&s kind of has a better grasp on making older content still relevant more so than other games to date (wow and FFXIV included). As tedious as it may be, people still have to run through old stuff to get BiS stuff, rather than just pumping their weapon up.

Right. This is sort of implied in my response. The goal of expac content should not be to replace old content, but to simply offer an alternative.

In the case of higher level and raid content, it should simply extend it without completely undermining the previous. The goal should be to keep the progression path intact, requiring players to conquer previous raid content to prepare for the new.

Takes quite a bit of forethought, I think Brad mentioned it somewhere on the reddit q&a, I kinda skimmed over most of the stuff.

I dont know if anyone looked at the q&a yet (its on the front page of mmorpg) but here's the link to. Good stuff in there so far since I'm currently reading all of it myself atm.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/4y7sd0/i_am_brad_aradune_mcquaid_cco_for_pantheon_rise/

Edit: I actually just hit the post I was referring to Brad trying to answer a moment ago lol

"There's no easy answer here. Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards and leveling and earning new abilities and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate is one way to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your friends need you to log in with them or order advance -- and most people who want to be part of a team, a team player, respond well to this pressure. As for Pantheon not being as hard core as EQ, I don't think I said that. I said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind I was referring to involved tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism."

Dullahan

Ya, I read the entire thing and @Albatroes quote was probably my favorite from all of it. Interesting that you picked that one out, was just talking to someone else about it early this evening.

delete5230

Again I have to use World of Warcraft as the best example.

The key is Vanilla wow was LARGE and full of content.  It took years before the first expansion. 6 starting areas, many choices to level to 60.

It's imperative that you have replay ability in the raw game first. This allows players to start over and not totally feel like they had done everything before.

Blizzard did the next step right too with the first expansion having more sideways progression with the introduction of two more starting zones and up to level 20. They also added 10 more levels at the end.

This was exactly how any expansion should be done..........Only later they began to screw up. Making the game easy was a major screw up, never do this !  

This is not about WoW, it's about how an expansion should be done.

waynejr2

Dullahan said:

The time necessary for reaching higher levels will be reduced organically if Pantheon is modeled after EQ.

How it worked was, as new content was released, it afforded lower level players greater access to things that were previously rare and powerful. Ideally, you would want to control mudflation enough that it isn't a major problem that leads to total triviality, but gives a new player just enough of an advantage to move them along at a slightly accelerated rate.

In any game with a open, player driven economy, this will eventually take place to some degree. This will make meddling with experience rates unnecessary.

The worst case scenario, imo, is what WoW does by essentially resetting everyone with each new expac, placing them on a level playing field and undermining their previous efforts by replacing powerful items with stuff that is readily accessible to everyone (green quest rewards, etc).

What I believe is a perception issue in these situations is this.  In a game (say wow) you started at level 1 and took some time to get to level 60 cap.  At level 60 cap, people did various things to continue progression.  Then TBC was released and the so called reset happened and the cap was raised from 60 to 70.  This is a compaction of experience in a sense where the original set was 60 levels and the new is only 10 levels.

IMO, these games should aim to provide a similar leveling set at each expansion. So TBC should have been level 61-120.  The reset gear would help those who didn't raid endgame in vanilla.   But if you did a smart job with the endgame gear, you could have designed it to last more than just a few levels into the new content.

Dullahan

waynejr2 said:

Dullahan said:

The time necessary for reaching higher levels will be reduced organically if Pantheon is modeled after EQ.

How it worked was, as new content was released, it afforded lower level players greater access to things that were previously rare and powerful. Ideally, you would want to control mudflation enough that it isn't a major problem that leads to total triviality, but gives a new player just enough of an advantage to move them along at a slightly accelerated rate.

In any game with a open, player driven economy, this will eventually take place to some degree. This will make meddling with experience rates unnecessary.

The worst case scenario, imo, is what WoW does by essentially resetting everyone with each new expac, placing them on a level playing field and undermining their previous efforts by replacing powerful items with stuff that is readily accessible to everyone (green quest rewards, etc).

What I believe is a perception issue in these situations is this.  In a game (say wow) you started at level 1 and took some time to get to level 60 cap.  At level 60 cap, people did various things to continue progression.  Then TBC was released and the so called reset happened and the cap was raised from 60 to 70.  This is a compaction of experience in a sense where the original set was 60 levels and the new is only 10 levels.

IMO, these games should aim to provide a similar leveling set at each expansion. So TBC should have been level 61-120.  The reset gear would help those who didn't raid endgame in vanilla.   But if you did a smart job with the endgame gear, you could have designed it to last more than just a few levels into the new content.

Its not really necessary to go from 61-120. First, because that would require an absolutely massive amount of content. Also, because most of the first 60 levels came really fast.

For instance, in EQ's Ruins of Kunark, they upped the level cap from 50 to 60. Getting from 51-55 took about as long as going from 1-30. 55-60 probably took as long as 30-45 or so.

Beyond the content issue, the goal is not to just release a brand new game. Its to expand the current world which should still be relevant. You have to integrate it in, otherwise you're better off just launching a new game. It would make more sense and you'd make a lot more money.

Dullahan

delete5230 said:

Again I have to use World of Warcraft as the best example.

The key is Vanilla wow was LARGE and full of content.  It took years before the first expansion. 6 starting areas, many choices to level to 60.

It's imperative that you have replay ability in the raw game first. This allows players to start over and not totally feel like they had done everything before.

Blizzard did the next step right too with the first expansion having more sideways progression with the introduction of two more starting zones and up to level 20. They also added 10 more levels at the end.

This was exactly how any expansion should be done..........Only later they began to screw up. Making the game easy was a major screw up, never do this !  

This is not about WoW, it's about how an expansion should be done.

Wha?? WoW was screwed up from its first expansion. I replaced my raid loot with green quest items in the first week of The Burning Crusade. It was really a horrible implementation and led to my quitting the game.

Kunark and Velious were the best expansion I've seen. Items and locations from both the earlier expansion and the vanilla world were still populated and relevant. Even the old raids offered items that were highly sought after for the first 5 years of the game.