Perfectly executed plan. Flawless

delete5230

This is not a knock to the game itself or the players.

In fact I would have played Black Desert Online myself but I don't like Asian grinders.  I had several weak moments because "nothing else to play" adding that most are finding the game fun and charming.  I love watching this Youtube guy, TheLazyPeon.  I love his style for reviewing mmos.  He's fun and honest.  He had me convinced about BDO.  But what was coming stopped me....The recent history of business models ! 

I have a problem with gimping myself from having instant fun.  That reckless buy now and have fun while it last. I don't blame anyone who does, I really don't !......Coming from an engineering background, I tend to look ahead of all ramification's before I execute, and that's what I did here......I could have had several months of enjoyment.

Anyway, It all come to pass !......This is not about I told you so, PLEASE DONT TAKE IT AS SUCH. 

It's more about the most perfectly executed plan to date.  Marketing at it's finest. The people at Pearl Abyss and DaumGames really know how to read into peoples spending.  All the "does" and "don't" were utilized here in re-publishing an Asian game here in the west. 

First, by selling the game outright for $30 knowing " free " doesn't catch every ones money.  Definitely add the cash shop because people tend to be spontaneous, this is a given.............Wait a predetermined time to add a $15 Value Pack with play-to-win features.  Then, MOST IMPORTANT of all, if consumer's don't bite well enough with the sub, execute the emergency phase of play-to-win in the cash shop.

They don't care about complaining, they expected that !..........Feeling guilty ?....No.  When 20 people in an office conspire, they can blame it on the other 19.   Read Moses and the Golden Calf.    

Brilliant, extremely clever......Best marketing to date    

Is this the future ?

filmoret

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

DXSins

Research the games origin and then you know what to expect later on and/or worst it will possibly be.

They delivered a dumbed down version of its origin for the western release and have been slowly been bringing the western version inline with the origin, which is what many expected them to do. I never seen the B2P requirement as anything but a few forced cash shop purchases required to play the game.

Only thing left for them to do is drop the forced cash shop purchases (B2P)? and let everyone in for free like every other region the game operates in.

Which of these KR imports haven't always tried to release as an dumbed down (none P2W) of their origin for western release and then bring them back in line few months later? Hard to sell founder packs at launch if they don't make us feel special and feel like getting a better deal than other versions.

linadragon

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

Phry

linadragon said:

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

Everyone here  pretty much already knows exactly what P2W means, its not complicated, the weird thing is that you seem to be alone in not knowing what it means, thats why you have to keep repeating the same old mantra, because your version of P2W is not the same, if anything, unless an item is labelled godly weapon in the cash shop and allows you to kill anyone with a single hit, its not pay to win.

Kyleran

What's clear from many recent releases is game publishers don't expect a large portion of their customers to stick with MMOs over the long term, with good reason.

So monetization efforts have turned from long term options such as subscriptions, to multiple front end options including early and very early access, founders packs, up front purchase fees, options to pay to avoid inevitible launch week queues etc.

They also have a cash shop offering clothing and customization options not available in game.

Additionally there are items of extraordinary convenience such as auto looting pets which is functionality that should have been built into the game, and not sold as a store item. (IMO)

All of this is designed to extract as much money as possible from all customers of course, but particularly the much larger short term player base.

As the game ages and the short term players move off, they offer subcription value packs for those in it for the long haul.

They also start making the cash shop more appealing to the whales, who largely fund these games over the longer term, up to a year or so or until the next game from that publisher launches.

I've always said the greatest "innovation" or adaptation in this genre the past 10 years has been in terms of how monetization models have changed to extract money from customers, especially in light of the trend for new games to peak in their first month and  go downhill from there.

FelixMajor

I thought it was obvious from the beginning that Daum's intentions were not to release this game in the West, but to squeeze any last drop they could out of it.  Think of house flippers, they make the most visible QoL improvements that will cost them the least amount of expense, and then turn around and upsell it through manipulation and staging.

This is EXACTLY what Daum has done.

Nilden

DMKano said:

They told everyone 6 weeks prior to launch that after the launch phase they would consider letting players sell cash shop items in Auction House.

Also if you look at how Daum now Kakao games monetized the game in other regions - it was plain as day on how the game would be monetized in the West.

They also said they were going buy to play to avoid pay to win antics.

Nilden

DMKano said:

Nilden said:

DMKano said:

They told everyone 6 weeks prior to launch that after the launch phase they would consider letting players sell cash shop items in Auction House.

Also if you look at how Daum now Kakao games monetized the game in other regions - it was plain as day on how the game would be monetized in the West.

They also said they were going buy to play to avoid pay to win antics.

By they you mean community manager Jouska who doesn't have the inside information, he is not even Korean, he is treated as an outsider even as an employee. Ask any lower position in a Korean run company how non native Koreans are treated.

The plan to sell items after launch phase came from Pearl Abyss so that trumps whatever 2nd hand information Jouska was told to tell Westerners.

Also when they said that they were talking about *launch phase* - not how the game would be changed afterwards.

So basically they were totally fine letting him lie to people.

holdenhamlet

"Then, MOST IMPORTANT of all, if consumer's don't bite well enough with the sub, execute the emergency phase of play-to-win in the cash shop."

Thing is they never gave us a chance to bite on the sub, and I'm sure most would have.  They gave everyone that bought the game at 1 month of the sub for free.

Anyway, as far as evil moneygrubbing techniques go, I suppose it was OK.  They may have a lawsuit about the p2w stuff, though.  Everything they've done has been really close to the line of being acceptable, which I guess is what you want to do if you're just in it for the money.  Their credit rating is sure to take a hit from all the chargebacks if nothing else, though.

But it's a shame.  Game is really good and ripe for unlimited growth, and they threw it all away to grab some cash while flushing the game down the toilet and fucking every player in the ass.

I guess maybe there's something we don't know about (besides the fact that Kakao is moving out of gaming entirely).  Maybe Pearl Abyss is falling apart or already transitioned to a new game or something.

Gdemami

Nilden said:

So basically they were totally fine letting him lie to people.

Just because you disagree with someone does not mean they lie.
Just because one changes their mind does not mean they lie.
Just because bottom line employee says something does not mean it represents a stance of the company.
etc.
etc.

But whatever flies your ranting boat, do not get common sense get in your way, I guess...

Azmodeus

DMKano said:

They told everyone 6 weeks prior to launch that after the launch phase they would consider letting players sell cash shop items in Auction House.

Also if you look at how Daum now Kakao games monetized the game in other regions - it was plain as day on how the game would be monetized in the West.

Seriously guys DMKano is right.  You may think they they scammed you, and all kind of nonsense but they really didn't.  They TOLD you they may do it later on, no surprise here!

PinoX

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the game plan was quick cash grab from day 1, take a good look at the cash shop's pricing. Then take a good look at the p2win "convenience" items in the cash shop, hello ghillie suits (slippery slope).
I don't get the rages, this is forthcoming.

Nilden

azurrei

PinoX said:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the game plan was quick cash grab from day 1, take a good look at the cash shop's pricing. Then take a good look at the p2win "convenience" items in the cash shop, hello ghillie suits (slippery slope).
I don't get the rages, this is forthcoming.

Absolutely - my GF and I bought the game and enjoyed it for a few months but we spent $0 on the cash shop because 1) it was greedy AF from the beginning for a B2P game and 2) it was obvious going this route was going to lead to P2W within 6 months.  We are both veteran MMO gamers so we know how these companies work - extremely predictable.  So we had our fun and now just try to log in for 30 seconds daily for all the free stuff just in case we ever feel like returning (highly unlikely, but never say never.)

Kyleran

azurrei said:

PinoX said:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the game plan was quick cash grab from day 1, take a good look at the cash shop's pricing. Then take a good look at the p2win "convenience" items in the cash shop, hello ghillie suits (slippery slope).
I don't get the rages, this is forthcoming.

Absolutely - my GF and I bought the game and enjoyed it for a few months but we spent $0 on the cash shop because 1) it was greedy AF from the beginning for a B2P game and 2) it was obvious going this route was going to lead to P2W within 6 months.  We are both veteran MMO gamers so we know how these companies work - extremely predictable.  So we had our fun and now just try to log in for 30 seconds daily for all the free stuff just in case we ever feel like returning (highly unlikely, but never say never.)

Think carefully though, you clearly aren't the target audience for this game anymore, they got what they could from you, now you are just bandwidth wasters.

They are trying to cater to folks more willing to spend money on the game who have fewer personal hang ups with the design.

linadragon

Phry said:

linadragon said:

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

Everyone here  pretty much already knows exactly what P2W means, its not complicated, the weird thing is that you seem to be alone in not knowing what it means, thats why you have to keep repeating the same old mantra, because your version of P2W is not the same, if anything, unless an item is labelled godly weapon in the cash shop and allows you to kill anyone with a single hit, its not pay to win.

P2W is buying an edge/power that is only attainable through the cash shop. It has been that since its inception PERIOD. People have arbitarily changed the meaning of it in the last few years to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean. I was around when the freaking term was coined and know its definition. It isn't a complicated definition, but folks like you and others here try and stretch it to mean what you think it means instead of its actual meaning. No one that has been around MMORPGS long enough to remember when and why the term was coined would actively agree with the broad meaning that the term has taken due to folks like you. 

Pay 2 win even as little back as 2012 has meant when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions Now the trick of it is literally being that that advantage is only available through the cash shop and other definitions include 

Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

In this case the person wouldn't even be grinding weeks/months to catch up and supposed "whales" that only "buy their way to the top" would actually be at a distinct disadvantage if they aren't in game actually playing the thing... Again explain to me how black desert is selling anyone an edge over other players in the cash shop? If you want to see actual pay 2 win titles go play Mu, Shaiya, Silk Road etc, games that actually sell gear and real advantages that can't be obtained at all WITHOUT OPENING YOUR WALLET. 

The literal term is paying to gain such an advantage through the cash shop that you basically only compete with those that have spent money as well ie the free players can never ever ever compete and even if the gear/item is attainable in game it is so rare that it is pointless. The Ghillie suit one could argue as being p2w but there are mechanisms in game to counter it that you are given left and right not to mention that anyone really relying on name tags to track a target is beyond being silly. 

I repeat myself simply because I'm sick of people trying to bend the term in recent years to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean. It had a very strict meaning and has for a long long long long time until the last few years when people arbitrarily decided it should mean something else that has NOTHING to do with pay 2 win in the least.

A little extra money per week isn't going to help anyone get ahead in BDO and in particular unless that person plays and grinds n top of it (something "whales" seldom do) that person may be looking at taking 2 - 3 weeks what someone can accomplish just playing in one. They've found a fair balance where it can't be an abused system currently and it is working quite well. A few critics of them rolling it out actually went on their forums and apologized after seeing the actual implementation and stated that they over reacted as many others continue to do so with. 

Doug_B

Let me get this right, with out playing the game, at all , you have come to an illogical conclusion that is being passed as fact ? In your own words, you support gold farmers and illegal money transactions out of the game and out of the game developers hands ?

delete5230

Doug_B said:

Let me get this right, with out playing the game, at all , you have come to an illogical conclusion that is being passed as fact ? In your own words, you support gold farmers and illegal money transactions out of the game and out of the game developers hands ?

You got something right. I didn't play the game because I know it was scum bag

As far as Gold Farmers, I need a nap........For right now, I'll try and not figure what that has to do with anything.

Hefaistos

delete5230 said:

This is not a knock to the game itself or the players.

In fact I would have played Black Desert Online myself but I don't like Asian grinders.  I had several weak moments because "nothing else to play" adding that most are finding the game fun and charming.  I love watching this Youtube guy, TheLazyPeon.  I love his style for reviewing mmos.  He's fun and honest.  He had me convinced about BDO.  But what was coming stopped me....The recent history of business models ! 

I have a problem with gimping myself from having instant fun.  That reckless buy now and have fun while it last. I don't blame anyone who does, I really don't !......Coming from an engineering background, I tend to look ahead of all ramification's before I execute, and that's what I did here......I could have had several months of enjoyment.

Anyway, It all come to pass !......This is not about I told you so, PLEASE DONT TAKE IT AS SUCH. 

It's more about the most perfectly executed plan to date.  Marketing at it's finest. The people at Pearl Abyss and DaumGames really know how to read into peoples spending.  All the "does" and "don't" were utilized here in re-publishing an Asian game here in the west. 

First, by selling the game outright for $30 knowing " free " doesn't catch every ones money.  Definitely add the cash shop because people tend to be spontaneous, this is a given.............Wait a predetermined time to add a $15 Value Pack with play-to-win features.  Then, MOST IMPORTANT of all, if consumer's don't bite well enough with the sub, execute the emergency phase of play-to-win in the cash shop.

They don't care about complaining, they expected that !..........Feeling guilty ?....No.  When 20 people in an office conspire, they can blame it on the other 19.   Read Moses and the Golden Calf.    

Brilliant, extremely clever......Best marketing to date    

Is this the future ?

I had to quote you for posterity. Its not an executed plan. Its almost copy paste plan from RUssia and KOrea version. Its 99% match beside that FREE TO PLAY server. 

So, your post is useless. Me and most of my friends knew this was coming. I've played 2 months and quit since the grind was real. Anyway, a p2w version only adds a small income considering how much you need to face the RNG and the expenses. 

So, as ive said, your post is useless and your thread has 0 added value to mmo gaming. Guess what. 

People will leave, 1st merge will come. People will leave again. 2nd Merge will come. At the end is 1-2 EU/1-2NA servers. 

Thats the future of BDO. Thats whats up in KR and RU. 

Perfectly executed plan? You dont know. Maybe they've tried to delay P2W but people were already leaving. 

Tiamat64

I and many others saw this coming as soon as Daum said that they were leaving open the option to sell cash shop items in the market place in the future.  I mean, they practically declared they would be doing this weeks before the game even launched.  Not that some people believed us when we pointed it out.

LacedOpium

linadragon said:

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

There are various levels of extremes when it comes to "P2W" in MMORPGs now days.  While your above example is the most egregious form of P2W, it is not the only manner in which "P2WP manifests itself in MMORPGs.  There are no "absolute definition" of "P2W." With the advent of the various forms of complicated versions of cash shop business models in MMORPGs, P2W has evolved to be a mattter of varying levels of extremes.  They are all evil, its just a matter of picking your poison or having to put up with the lesser of the different variations of evil.   

delete5230

Definition of play to win is not the point. What they told the public beforehand is not the point.

The point is they pulled off the perfect plan to get peoples money, using to step by step to deceive.

Doug_B

delete5230 said:

Doug_B said:

Let me get this right, with out playing the game, at all , you have come to an illogical conclusion that is being passed as fact ? In your own words, you support gold farmers and illegal money transactions out of the game and out of the game developers hands ?

You got something right. I didn't play the game because I know it was scum bag

As far as Gold Farmers, I need a nap........For right now, I'll try and not figure what that has to do with anything.

So you aren't"knocking" anyting, but it is "scumbag" . So besides trolling, you have no real input in something you don't even play. Have a nice day. This thread should be locked.

linadragon

LacedOpium said:

linadragon said:

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

There are various levels of extremes when it comes to "P2W" in MMORPGs now days.  While your above example is the most egregious form of P2W, it is not the only manner in which "P2WP manifests itself in MMORPGs.  There are no "absolute definition" of "P2W." With the advent of the various forms of complicated versions of cash shop business models in MMORPGs, P2W has evolved to be a mattter of varying levels of extremes.  They are all evil, its just a matter of picking your poison or having to put up with the lesser of the different variations of evil.   

They are not all evil and the absolute definition is kind of literally the only thing that is pay 2 win. This whole "varying degrees" bull shit just further proves what I'm saying. You are basically broadening the meaning of the term over and over and over and over and over simply because you don't like a paid mechanic... Almost no mmorpg that uses micro transactions save for a few blatant ones are not actually pay to win. There is most definitely an absolute definition for what pay 2 win is and though there are varying versions of cash shops almost none of them manifest in a way that can be taken as pay 2 win unless you are skewing the definition of what pay 2 win is to suit your own ever broadening definition. 

I've seen more and more crap added to what p2w is based off of people's opinions and them trying to make it stick, things that were never considered p2w and would of never of been considered p2w until more recently simply because people don't feel like paying for those things anymore. 

LacedOpium

linadragon said:

LacedOpium said:

linadragon said:

filmoret said:

Yea why do f2p and p2w when you can go b2p with p2w.   These past 2 years have been bad seeing just what lengths the market is willing to go in order to suck money out of players.  Archeage did a similiar thing which required you to both pay the monthly sub fee and buy items from the cash shop just to enjoy the game.  Then they added p2w on top of it.  So these gaming companies can take their rng loot boxes and their greedy tactics shove them up their butts and die for all I care.

Can we please stop with the overall meaningless "opinion" of what pay  2 win is. Unless it meets the literal definition it is NOT pay 2 win. Just because it has stuff for sale that you'd rather not see doesn't make a game pay 2 win. For a game to be pay 2 win it needs to meet this criteria - The cash shop needs to sell gear, potions, etc, that give you a definitive edge over others and the cash shop needs to be the ONLY method to attain that kind of power. 

Allowing someone to sell cash shop items in a very limited fashion is not making the game pay 2 win at all and you are making up to 100 million extra silver a week.. You can make 50 mill a day grinding sausans and just selling junk from them (not even relying on marketplace sales). Your type seem to be the type that stands their with their jaw open when they hear a word or term trying to adapt it to be whatever the hell you want it to mean. 

P2W has a long established meaning and it doesn't include 99% of the shit you people think it does. In fact in this game given so many of the actual limitations, the rng, ahnd the limtations on the cash shop to marketplace sales you'd be looking at 3 weeks to do what a normal player can do in a SINGLE week if you just opened up your wallet.Nothing you can buy or sell from the pearl shop gives you an edge and an extra 100 mill a week while helpful to an extent won't actually give you any sort of definitive edge particularly if you were racing someone that can grind a long ass time (sausan's can result in 50 mill a day with CASUAL grinding)

The game has a very active player base still, the few that left can jump off a bridge for all most of the players care, and the players that are playing are THOROUGHLY ENJOYING the feature and don't find it to be a problem at all. There are tons partaking in this and many people actually prefer the kind of system that has been set up now in BDO. 

Those who continue to state this is a pay 2 win title have their heads up their own asses and want a long established term to mean something it doesn't mean. 

There are various levels of extremes when it comes to "P2W" in MMORPGs now days.  While your above example is the most egregious form of P2W, it is not the only manner in which "P2WP manifests itself in MMORPGs.  There are no "absolute definition" of "P2W." With the advent of the various forms of complicated versions of cash shop business models in MMORPGs, P2W has evolved to be a mattter of varying levels of extremes.  They are all evil, its just a matter of picking your poison or having to put up with the lesser of the different variations of evil.   

They are not all evil and the absolute definition is kind of literally the only thing that is pay 2 win. This whole "varying degrees" bull shit just further proves what I'm saying. You are basically broadening the meaning of the term over and over and over and over and over simply because you don't like a paid mechanic... Almost no mmorpg that uses micro transactions save for a few blatant ones are not actually pay to win. There is most definitely an absolute definition for what pay 2 win is and though there are varying versions of cash shops almost none of them manifest in a way that can be taken as pay 2 win unless you are skewing the definition of what pay 2 win is to suit your own ever broadening definition. 

I've seen more and more crap added to what p2w is based off of people's opinions and them trying to make it stick, things that were never considered p2w and would of never of been considered p2w until more recently simply because people don't feel like paying for those things anymore. 

... And yet skewing the definition of pay 2 win to suit your own narrow definition is exactly what you are doing, which makes your opinion no different than anybody else's opinion of pay 2 win.

MMORPG cash shops have evolved.  Your inability to grasp that what cash shops have progressed in accomplishing is that of offering different variations of P2W simply shows how far they've come in their ability to swindle and separate the average gamer from their money.  The fact of the matter is that the majority of gamers would not be spending money on a game's cash shop unless it offered some type of "advantage" that would aid them in "winning" the game.  

In it's most simplest form, P2W is defined as the simple use of real life money to gain an advantage, any form of advantage, over another player who is not using real life money.  You are entitled to disagree with that definition, but just because you do does not make your definition of P2W any more right than someone agreeing with it.