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MMORPG.com buys a small forum for $20K...

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  • AdminAdmin Administrator RarePosts: 5,620
    Just a reminder that you cannot promote/advertise your website/product/etc on our forums.

    - MMORPG.COM Staff -

    The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    Forgrimm said:
    It's real. I've been a lurker at rerolled since it was the old Fires of Heaven site. That site is basically the polar opposite of this site, in the sense that the forums are basically a free-for-all. 
    I'm not sure why the owners of mmorpg.com didn't actually, you know, go to the site and go through the forums and see what type of site it was.



  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,859
    Looks liek Adblock isn't that big of a problem...
  • ZegalothZegaloth Member UncommonPosts: 128
    Sovrath said:
    Forgrimm said:
    It's real. I've been a lurker at rerolled since it was the old Fires of Heaven site. That site is basically the polar opposite of this site, in the sense that the forums are basically a free-for-all. 
    I'm not sure why the owners of mmorpg.com didn't actually, you know, go to the site and go through the forums and see what type of site it was.

    I agree. $20k is far too large of an investment to not spend at least a few hours messing around on their forums. This really irks me that they would be so careless with their money if they are already having financial issues. Seems like you guys hired a business advisor that needs to get fired.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    Zegaloth said:
    Sovrath said:
    Forgrimm said:
    It's real. I've been a lurker at rerolled since it was the old Fires of Heaven site. That site is basically the polar opposite of this site, in the sense that the forums are basically a free-for-all. 
    I'm not sure why the owners of mmorpg.com didn't actually, you know, go to the site and go through the forums and see what type of site it was.

    I agree. $20k is far too large of an investment to not spend at least a few hours messing around on their forums. This really irks me that they would be so careless with their money if they are already having financial issues. Seems like you guys hired a business advisor that needs to get fired.
    My guess is that it's more about diversifying. They have agreements with ad companies and only so much "real estate" here. If they own sites with built in communities with a lot of page views they can "up" their revenue.

    Maybe it's more about me missing the fact that it's not about the site itself, it's about the community "upping and leaving". So they don't care about the content but if the community leaves because the owners leave then that is an issue.



  • nikibishnikibish Member UncommonPosts: 44
    So you guys blow 20k on a site that you did not do your due diligence on and then tell us we need to consider whitelisting shit? There seems to be a backstory here that isn't being told.

    I DONT CARE EITHER WAY lol if you guys earn your money, who cares where you spend it. Its rare things work out as planned. So things didnt work out this time, there is always next time :) Good luck guys. 
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    I don't get how you could purchase something without knowing the full details about the product.  How could you not know it was just a community forum?  It would've taken less than 10 minutes to know what kind of site it was, if you just browse through it.  This is bizarre. lol.

    Oh well, it's in the past.  It's best if everyone just moved on.  It's not a big deal.  It's one site of millions.  The internet lives on!
  • AdminAdmin Administrator RarePosts: 5,620
    edited August 2016
    Of course we knew it was a community forum. What we did not know was that if the ownership changed they would move elsewhere.  How could we have known that would happen?

    Prior to this happening it was a solid investment and was on track to pay itself off in a year or so (again it was not $20k like the OP stated).
    Post edited by Admin on

    - MMORPG.COM Staff -

    The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,708
    edited August 2016
    Wish I found this thread earlier. Would've went great with my morning coffee if I did.

    That aside....please continue everyone
  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Member UncommonPosts: 594
    Is this why you're considering subscriptions? :p  I kidd I kidd.. Kinda. 
  • nikibishnikibish Member UncommonPosts: 44
    I wouldnt mind a sub here if it gave us cool things in return...like mmorpg exclusive gears in games :P Im liking my MMORPG cloak :))))
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,628
    edited August 2016
    Way bigger picture !!..Sadly i doubt anyone really sees the bigger picture or very few do.

    I wanted to say something but my morals just can't bring myself to do it.Two wrongs don't make a right.
    I just read,pay attention to everything that goes on in gaming because i have a true passion for gaming.

    I guess my chance to say that i hope this site can change it's current path,become a better more passionate site for gaming.
    When i say things,i am VERY much well aware of what a business is,what types of agenda happen within a business,nobody needs to remind me of any of it.
    Sounds like i am just rambling,a few likely understand exactly what i am "eluding to".

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,303
    edited August 2016
    Holy cow.  Some people act like mmorpg.com is some tyrannical Corp.  They allow plenty of asses to use the forums for nonsense and all for free.

    So there are the stupid adverts.  So what.  Gamers have to be one of the most oblivious communities out there when it comes to cost.  Things cost.  Sites, content, access, etc.  It costs to operate and yes people like to make some coin. Game companies the same.  Things cost.  The lights in your basement, your comfy game chair, and the pizza/soda your mom brings down to you cost.  So get up, help her with chores and suck it up that the interpersonal isn't free.

    They let me say my foolishness for free! (Do your research better mmorp.com), but I rather think they do a pretty good job.  (Contact me mmorpg.com for my recommendations.  Cant give them here atm, cause I'm on a soapbox and it would be odd) ;)




    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,122
    Admin said:
    Of course we knew it was a community forum. What we did not know was that if the ownership changed they would move elsewhere.  How could we have known that would happen?
    The only thing i can think of in order to know(or have an idea of) that this would happen is that community forums are similar to youtube videos. You join the community because you want the particular content creator. If they sell their channel and move somewhere else, the community will follow.

    The best example of an actual gaming site i can think of is mmohuts. After Omer Altay sold the site his most loyal followers moved to his new site.




  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited August 2016
    From what I've read on that link, MMORPG.com saved that site, and didn't intend to change anything to it except link it in ad banners. To thank them, that "great" community screwed them big time.
    Seems like that "great" community should have been left dying. They didn't deserve that investment.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    From what I've read on that link, MMORPG.com saved that site, and didn't intend to change anything to it except link it in ad banners. To thank them, that "great" community screwed them big time.
    Seems like that "great" community should have been left dying. They didn't deserve that investment.
    Rerolled wasn't in need of saving, the site was doing the same as it had been pretty much. The community there was screwed over once before when it was the Fires of Heaven site. I don't recall the exact details but I vaguely remember the person who was running the site just up and leaving and they had years worth of posts and history that they couldn't continue, which is why they formed Rerolled some years back.

    They then built up rerolled similar to the way the FoH site had been built up, only to find out through a Whois search that ownership of the site changed hands in June. There were several people on Rerolled that most likely would have, either alone or with combined funds, purchased the site, but I guess the person who was running it at the time felt they could get more $ selling it elsewhere. Keep in mind that the site owner was just another member of the rerolled community.

    When they found out that the site, and their community, had been sold out behind their back by one of their own, they basically said F it, we're going to build a new home. It's understandable considering how different the communities are. It would be like Girl Scouts of America buying out a ganster rap group, 2 very different cultures.
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 1,944
    Forgrimm said:
    From what I've read on that link, MMORPG.com saved that site, and didn't intend to change anything to it except link it in ad banners. To thank them, that "great" community screwed them big time.
    Seems like that "great" community should have been left dying. They didn't deserve that investment.
    Rerolled wasn't in need of saving, the site was doing the same as it had been pretty much. The community there was screwed over once before when it was the Fires of Heaven site. I don't recall the exact details but I vaguely remember the person who was running the site just up and leaving and they had years worth of posts and history that they couldn't continue, which is why they formed Rerolled some years back.

    They then built up rerolled similar to the way the FoH site had been built up, only to find out through a Whois search that ownership of the site changed hands in June. There were several people on Rerolled that most likely would have, either alone or with combined funds, purchased the site, but I guess the person who was running it at the time felt they could get more $ selling it elsewhere. Keep in mind that the site owner was just another member of the rerolled community.

    When they found out that the site, and their community, had been sold out behind their back by one of their own, they basically said F it, we're going to build a new home. It's understandable considering how different the communities are. It would be like Girl Scouts of America buying out a ganster rap group, 2 very different cultures.
    I don't see how it's understandable at all. Crag basically gets swindled into buying something that was not as represented, and instead of attempting to change anything pledges to leave the site alone and make no changes, even offering to sell it back to the community.

    But, those same people who swear they would have purchased the site wouldn't put their money where their mouths were when offered the chance. Instead, they proclaimed Craig the devil and started a mass exodus to another site, leaving the only fair and innocent party in the whole mess SOL. Bunch of assholes if you ask me.
  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    Stizzled said:
    Forgrimm said:
    From what I've read on that link, MMORPG.com saved that site, and didn't intend to change anything to it except link it in ad banners. To thank them, that "great" community screwed them big time.
    Seems like that "great" community should have been left dying. They didn't deserve that investment.
    Rerolled wasn't in need of saving, the site was doing the same as it had been pretty much. The community there was screwed over once before when it was the Fires of Heaven site. I don't recall the exact details but I vaguely remember the person who was running the site just up and leaving and they had years worth of posts and history that they couldn't continue, which is why they formed Rerolled some years back.

    They then built up rerolled similar to the way the FoH site had been built up, only to find out through a Whois search that ownership of the site changed hands in June. There were several people on Rerolled that most likely would have, either alone or with combined funds, purchased the site, but I guess the person who was running it at the time felt they could get more $ selling it elsewhere. Keep in mind that the site owner was just another member of the rerolled community.

    When they found out that the site, and their community, had been sold out behind their back by one of their own, they basically said F it, we're going to build a new home. It's understandable considering how different the communities are. It would be like Girl Scouts of America buying out a ganster rap group, 2 very different cultures.
    I don't see how it's understandable at all. Crag basically gets swindled into buying something that was not as represented, and instead of attempting to change anything pledges to leave the site alone and make no changes, even offering to sell it back to the community.

    But, those same people who swear they would have purchased the site wouldn't put their money where their mouths were when offered the chance. Instead, they proclaimed Craig the devil and started a mass exodus to another site, leaving the only fair and innocent party in the whole mess SOL. Bunch of assholes if you ask me.
    Why would the community pay several thousands dollars to get the domain back if they can instead just use a new platform to host the discussions for a fraction of the price?
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,948
    First reply to Craig's first post: "Suck a tranny dick, retard". 

    What a wonderful community on that site. Really. 

    Gotta take Craig's side here. The only reason people jumped ship is because they wanted to be free to act like obnoxious dicks to everyone, and even the thought of MMORPG attempting to make them act like decent human beings sent them scurrying away like cockroaches when a light turns on. Even after Craig said he wouldn't do anything, they acted like it was inevitable that some form of heavy handed moderation would happen. 

    Sucks that everybody bailed, but that might be a blessing in disguise. Dunno about anyone else, but I sure wouldn't want a community like that associated with the name of my business. 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

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  • RamajamaRamajama Member UncommonPosts: 271
    Forgrimm said:
    From what I've read on that link, MMORPG.com saved that site, and didn't intend to change anything to it except link it in ad banners. To thank them, that "great" community screwed them big time.
    Seems like that "great" community should have been left dying. They didn't deserve that investment.
    Rerolled wasn't in need of saving, the site was doing the same as it had been pretty much. The community there was screwed over once before when it was the Fires of Heaven site. I don't recall the exact details but I vaguely remember the person who was running the site just up and leaving and they had years worth of posts and history that they couldn't continue, which is why they formed Rerolled some years back.

    They then built up rerolled similar to the way the FoH site had been built up, only to find out through a Whois search that ownership of the site changed hands in June. There were several people on Rerolled that most likely would have, either alone or with combined funds, purchased the site, but I guess the person who was running it at the time felt they could get more $ selling it elsewhere. Keep in mind that the site owner was just another member of the rerolled community.

    When they found out that the site, and their community, had been sold out behind their back by one of their own, they basically said F it, we're going to build a new home. It's understandable considering how different the communities are. It would be like Girl Scouts of America buying out a ganster rap group, 2 very different cultures.
    Gangster rap group? LOL
  • PalumPalum Member UncommonPosts: 4
    Let's get something straight - communities are not some trinket to be bought and sold.  People are not chattel.

    Inasmuch as you were defrauded by someone who schemed to sell an insignificant domain and antiquated, rickety forum install under the dubious presumption that a fiercely independent user base would simply accept change in ownership without consultation - well, I guess we've all been swindled.

    Here's the thing that gets me - at any point either party could have discussed this with the community and provided a first right of refusal but failed to do so.  The only reason this could possibly have been viewed as the 'smart' way to handle a transition is if both parties recognized that informing the users would 'rock the boat' and therefore reduce revenue/value.  This means both parties to the transaction decided that there could only be an adverse reaction from the community.  The same people apparently generating revenue for the site.  Now, I'm not some fancy AA in General Studies, but I'm pretty sure taking steps that would inevitably alienate the only loyal customer base is poor business acumen.

    There's exactly zero surprise to any of the members that we would choose to move rather than do without control over the direction and content of the community.  Of course, one could only divine such knowledge by, you know, bothering to ask.





    --Palum

  • ErroniusErronius Member UncommonPosts: 9
    edited August 2016
    Stizzled said:
    I don't see how it's understandable at all. Crag basically gets swindled into buying something that was not as represented, and instead of attempting to change anything pledges to leave the site alone and make no changes, even offering to sell it back to the community.

    But, those same people who swear they would have purchased the site wouldn't put their money where their mouths were when offered the chance. Instead, they proclaimed Craig the devil and started a mass exodus to another site, leaving the only fair and innocent party in the whole mess SOL. Bunch of assholes if you ask me.
    Hi, I'm a former moderator from that forum. A few things: no one was offered a "chance" to "put their money where their mouths were". Craig, for whatever reason, never thought to contact the community (until we contacted him), and Draegan/Teljair probably didn't want to tell us that he'd sold the site itself. Since the exodus, I do believe that people in our community have reached out to Craig to purchase the forum's data, so maybe you can ask Craig about that. Also, I can assure you that the only reason Craig even knew anything was going south in the first place is that myself and some other Moderators pressured an Admin of ours for specifics when we heard about this last Sunday, which lead to what I gather was a frank discussion with Craig and Craig posting that 'had he known', he wouldn't have made the purchase.

    I do appreciate that Craig at least offered to leave us alone and improve the forum software, but at the end of the day this was a business transaction involving actual monies and there would be no guarantees going forward that Craig and Co. wouldn't shut our forums down (for whatever reason) or try to merge our community with this one. And Craig couldn't have known that many in our community were already poised and waiting for an excuse to move away from Draegan and Rerollz Media, just as we couldn't have known that the site itself was already sold out from under us.

    We aren't beholden to stay at that site to help Craig out anymore than any of you are beholden to stay here to help him. Someone could buy this site from Craig and MMORPG tomorrow and it wouldn't make any more sense for me to argue that none of you should leave afterwards than it does to argue that none of us should leave.

    Speaking of 'purchasing the site': none of us care about the domain(s), we only care about the forum's data. And even then we don't care overly much. We left a much better site with better history years ago, and we lost everything then. We'll do so again if we have to. If an agreement can't be reached over that data, then I hope that Craig enjoys threads about random prostitutes and the johns that love them, a nice guy named Gravy, how many mcnuggets McCheese can eat in one sitting, MAGA, sous-viding entire cows, Brad and Pantheon, whether Mist is really a woman or just a depressed and whiny dude, and the occasional argument about the alien lizard angels who built the pyramids and how gargling peroxide can cure what ails you.




  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,563
    edited August 2016
    Erronius said:
    Stizzled said:
    I don't see how it's understandable at all. Crag basically gets swindled into buying something that was not as represented, and instead of attempting to change anything pledges to leave the site alone and make no changes, even offering to sell it back to the community.

    But, those same people who swear they would have purchased the site wouldn't put their money where their mouths were when offered the chance. Instead, they proclaimed Craig the devil and started a mass exodus to another site, leaving the only fair and innocent party in the whole mess SOL. Bunch of assholes if you ask me.
    Hi, I'm a former moderator from that forum. A few things: no one was offered a "chance" to "put their money where their mouths were". Craig, for whatever reason, never thought to contact the community (until we contacted him), and Draegan/Teljair probably didn't want to tell us that he'd sold the site itself. Since the exodus, I do believe that people in our community have reached out to Craig to purchase the forum's data, so maybe you can ask Craig about that. Also, I can assure you that the only reason Craig even knew anything was going south in the first place is that myself and some other Moderators pressured an Admin of ours for specifics when we heard about this last Sunday, which lead to what I gather was a frank discussion with Craig and Craig posting that 'had he known', he wouldn't have made the purchase.

    I do appreciate that Craig at least offered to leave us alone and improve the forum software, but at the end of the day this was a business transaction involving actual monies and there would be no guarantees going forward that Craig and Co. wouldn't shut our forums down (for whatever reason) or try to merge our community with this one. And Craig couldn't have known that many in our community were already poised and waiting for an excuse to move away from Draegan and Rerollz Media, just as we couldn't have known that the site itself was already sold out from under us.

    We aren't beholden to stay at that site to help Craig out anymore than any of you are beholden to stay here to help him. Someone could buy this site from Craig and MMORPG tomorrow and it wouldn't make any more sense for me to argue that none of you should leave afterwards than it does to argue that none of us should leave.

    Speaking of 'purchasing the site': none of us care about the domain(s), we only care about the forum's data. And even then we don't care overly much. We left a much better site with better history years ago, and we lost everything then. We'll do so again if we have to. If an agreement can't be reached over that data, then I hope that Craig enjoys threads about random prostitutes and the johns that love them, a nice guy named Gravy, how many mcnuggets McCheese can eat in one sitting, MAGA, sous-viding entire cows, Brad and Pantheon, whether Mist is really a woman or just a depressed and whiny dude, and the occasional argument about the alien lizard angels who built the pyramids and how gargling peroxide can cure what ails you.




    According to doofhoof, Craig made you an offer for the data, $7K, seems fair in light of everything.

    So little understanding of business in the world, a failing of the education system apparently.

    Here's a thought, maybe the community member who sold the site can buy the data back and donate it to the new site?

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  • LithoseLithose Member CommonPosts: 4
    edited August 2016
    Kyleran said:
    According to doofhoof, Craig made you an offer for the data, $7K, seems fair in light of everything.

    So little understanding of business in the world, a failing of the education system apparently.

    Here's a thought, maybe the community member who sold the site can buy the data back and donate it to the new site?


    First, lets be clear, the community member who sold us out? Is no longer part of the community. That Judas betrayed both Craig and us. Now, onto the meat of the post.

    What "business" world are you referring to? The community in question is made up of mostly older folks, we've been gaming since the 90's online, and have been a community now for 12+years. Most of us run our own businesses now, or are fairly established in "business".

    Since you apparently think "being fair" or "trust" are important factors in "business", let me disabuse of that notion right now and save you some heartache and money in the future. The first term you should learn in any business venture is Caveat Emptor, buyer beware, it's so enshrined in Western society that precedents have been set up around it. It is up to YOU to do due diligence on your purchases, and on contracts you sign. Someone can't defraud you, yes, but the standard for that is incredibly strict--certainly it's not "I bought a business without checking my customer base and then they all left, this is unfair!"

    Fair has nothing to do with it. It wasn't fair when Draegan (The site owner) sold us out, just like it wasn't fair that Craig got duped. We, however, did our due diligence and checked owner records and had members of the community placed to warn us--and we benefited from that diligence by avoiding being tangled up in a for-profit site admin (Which I'll explain below is unpalatable to us). Craig, on the other hand, seems to have either eschewed due diligence or purposely kept the purchase secret because he really did know what would happen and wanted to exploit the view numbers to sell adds at a higher rate under his network (You can believe either of those scenarios you want). The point is we didn't "expect" the world to be fair, and we were able to defend ourselves when it inevitably wasn't, when one of our community members tried to screw us over. So some advice? If you have this expectation of fairness in life, you're going to be miserable.

    That all said, I'm sure Craig is a swell guy--he seemed amiable enough when he posted. And I'm sure he actually believed he would leave us alone, too. The issue is, Craig is a businessman (Remember what I said about the business world being unfair?)...As nice as I'm sure Craig is, the point of his efforts isn't to be kind, it's to put food on the table for his family. If you're in 'business' you have to keep this in mind with EVERYONE you meet...At the end of the day they are making money for people they love, and YOU are just a customer, client or partner that they derive money from. They will only be "fair" or "kind" to you in so much that it effectively benefits their primary motivation, which is to make money for their family. The second the relationship with you, interferes with that, the relationship with you will change so it no longer interferes with the money making. 

    One day, inevitably, someone would have taken one of our more blunt conversations on Rerolled and run off to twitter or some other social network and screamed about how MMORPG was involved with such a terrible site. It would eventually get back to Craig's advertisers, or some other interest, and Craig would be forced to bring the hammer down in terms of moderation on the site. Again, not because he's "mean" or a bad person--but because his primary goal is to make money, NOT be "fair" or "nice". He's under no obligation to us to do anything, at all, not even a little (We don't even purchase things from him, so he's not even bound under the thinnest of consumer protections, or any kind of quid pro quo to uphold his "deal". It would be immensely naive of us to simply take someone's word on that when again, he has a conflict of interest--he wants to make money.) Just as we're under no obligation to him, it would be ridiculous to think so, like trying to say you're under obligation to continue eating at a restaurant you like.

    Does our view bend towards cynicism? Of course, but as I said, most of us now run our own business, we're older and we've learned the lessons life has had to teach the hard way. If we didn't have a site to go to, we would have just left and let the forum die and used one of the much more popular sites for watered down, mass market conversations (Like Reddit or the Chans depending on which kind of conversation.) The forum is only valuable because it is fundamentally different from other options, its a steady non-anonymous community which is dedicated to open discussion and frank discourse, and light moderation--not exactly a combination that is easy to find in today's easily offended world.

    I wish Craig all the best, hopefully we can come to an arrangement, but you need to dispel yourself of "fair". There isn't a discussion of blocking adblock on this site because of fairness. Craig's not a bad guy, but you're being silly if he's not going to put himself and his family first, as I would expect of any rational adult.


    Post edited by Lithose on
  • ErroniusErronius Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Kyleran said:
    According to doofhoof, Craig made you an offer for the data, $7K, seems fair in light of everything.

    So little understanding of business in the world, a failing of the education system apparently.

    Here's a thought, maybe the community member who sold the site can buy the data back and donate it to the new site?
    1. I don't even know who doofhoof is. Palum, Lithose and I are posting under our known handles however. Believe who you want, I guess.
    2. AFAIK we reached out to Craig and asked what he and MMORPG would want. You make it sound like Craig rang our doorbell out of the blue looking to make a sale.
    3. Even if (even if!) $7k is remotely accurate, then:
    4. It's probably based on what Craig paid, which probably isn't a fair valuation, all things considered (some of you have even been arguing that he was ripped off, so this should be an easy concept to grasp)
    5. No one in their right mind would want to pay a premium simply because Craig paid too much. This is like buying a used car for 10 times the market value and then trying to sell spare parts off of it at inflated prices. No, we do not want to buy a $50 used car stereo that Craig ripped out of the dash for $500, on the premise that he paid to much for a collection of sites.
    6. $7k for the forums database is pants on head retarded. No one else will ever want that data. It doesn't have a use beyond us wanting to insert it into our new forums to maintain continuity.
    7. Why would Draegan/Teljair voluntarily buy that data back and donate it to us? You probably think that Santa is real, too.
    I will ask you this though: what do we not understand about the business world? You sound like a petulant teenager trying to take a swipe at me while simultaneously trying to sound erudite, yet you couldn't really manage to verbalize a very convincing argument beyond "hurr durr failing of the education system, hurr durr". Is this really a fair representation of the level of discourse here?
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