Lleith said: witness to the company reversing course and turning BDO into exactly the type of P2W bizzaro-world they promised we'd never suffer.
You were several times corrected that Daum/Kakao never promised anything you claim they did, yet you still keep repeating that lie - yes, that is an actual lie.
Second, it is entirely irrelevant.
They can change their mind any time and that will be all fine. One would need to be seriously dim-witted not to re-consider their past decisions when they do not work out as planned.
So I am trying to get a handle on what has the writer of the article so upset, as someone who doesn't actually play. Is it just that people can buy things on the cash shop and put them up for sale in-game for other currency?
The guy was banned for posting that. Controversial? Sure - but certainly not anywhere near the most vitriolic thing that BDO's forums have seen in the past 48 hours. But the ban hammer came down nonetheless: thread deleted, user bludgeoned into silence.
Some of you guys really need to grow up. Including that poster.
Game forums are not places for people to express anything they want, fight injustice, insult the owners, or "just being honest".
They are there to bring the community together so that the company can support that community for a game it sells.
The only reason that company has that forum is because of its product.
that company is not going to want to host angry mobs who are there to cause a negative environment about its product, so of course he was banned.
You don't like a product or the business model then don't support it. Support a competitor who does what you think are the right things. It's just that simple. But don't expect a business to host dissent on their own virtual property.
Stop thinking video games are a "right".
Stop thinking that customers are a field that can be silently farmed. Good developers appreciate that the open exchange of information - even if temporarily hurtful to their business - helps them build credibility amongst the playerbase and builds in flexibility and brand loyalty for the future.
You can repeat this "it's their forum, their rules" nonsense as much as you like - because, of course, in the most narrow interpretation imaginable, it is quite true. However, this is the internet - the electronic wild west - and we are western gamers. Our interpretation of this venue is different from many other cultures, and we (most of us) shudder violently at all forms of repression. And, as the massive blowback of this single deleted thread proves, clumsy censorship doesn't even work - it just explodes back in your face.
It's very easy to defend the "powers that be" - I understand why you're doing it, because the alternative (to fight back) is both difficult and scary. The problem is, the revolution in BDO's back yard has taken hold, and they can ban people all they like, but it isn't going to stop people from making the ultimate expression of free thought: uninstalling the game (and, for many of us, completing a chargeback). You're on the wrong side of history, bud. We win.
Oh please.
I repeat what I say. And really? electronic wild west?
What would I be defending? A company's right to do as they please? Let them.
There is a reason I don't tell people I play video games and it's precisely because of posts like yours. It casts people who play video games as so "less than", it's like a community of man-boys/girls with their priorities way off.
and clearly it's not true, there are reasonable successful, stable individuals who play video games like any hobby, be it sports or art or music of "whatever". But every time I see a post like yours I'm reminded how far the hobby has to go.
I'm not joining this crusade because I actually don't believe in a word you said. Has nothing to do with being difficult. You know what is difficult? Being in a community with members who use the word "revolution" in connection to video games. It's just so trying.
So yeah, I stand by my post and repeat that if you don't like a company don't support them. It's just that easy. And if the medium continually wallows in behavior that you find reprehensible then find another hobby.
Kakao (or whatever they are called) can sink or swim by their own actions, they will either satisfy customers or drive them away. I don't really need to be part of a "video game revolution".
Do you deny that BDO is going down in flames? Obviously (or, at least, to those of us accustomed to expressing ourselves with the English language), the use of 'revolution' was employing colorful terminology rather than literal fact, but you cannot deny that people are quitting in droves over this. In as much as a "revolution" can happen in an MMORPG, what we are seeing over on the BDO forums equates to one.
Now whether you acknowledge that or not is your choice. Everyone is entitled to stick their head in the sand - the only problem with doing so being that it doesn't change the facts on the ground. And those facts are quite simple: Black Desert is bleeding out.
And by the way, nobody would want a stick in the mud like you around during any kind of a revolution regardless - don't flatter yourself: you weren't invited.
I always get cynical when someone uses the meme 'stick their head in the sand' as it is based on the fallacy that Ostrich's do that, they don't.
Then we have ' the facts on the ground' with nary an established fact in sight.
Lots of hyperbole, colorful language, a slur on someone's knowledge of the English language and high emotion. But no facts just opinions.
The post was in breech of fairly ordinary TOS it got moderated. Banning the user may have been harsh or it may have been based on past behavior or due to attacks on the moderator in private messages. But it was certainly within the companies pervue to make that decision.
It was just an overly emotional sophomoric rant. I guess the internet has brought us to the point where we think of something as "well written" if it's mostly free of spelling mistakes and bad grammar despite the quality of content
I'm not a fan of using cash shops for RMT in this or any other game but that post was a bit over the top.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So I'll take with a grain of salt any outcry of people leaving in droves until I actually see it.
There's no grain of salt involved in the fact that if that patch ever goes live, what will most likely happen, Daum/Kakao/Pearl will never ever get even just a single cent of my money. Neither for this game, nor for any future game they could publish. I've made that oath for a couple of companies before already, and I never broke it.
I bought some shop stuff before to support them. I would have gladly continued. That is over if they go that route. I will possibly keep on playing, but as a "leech", using bandwidth without paying a cent, since it's perfectly possible with my play style and all I ever bought was cosmetic anyway. I actually intend to steal that gold from the whale by making them buy my wares.
And that's obviously a good way to play. I'm not for people doing things they don't feel comfortable about.
However, the idea that a large amount or majority feel the way you do or the OP might not be true.
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
The thing is I always thought they were going to do this.
I felt the writing was on the wall. At the start of the game people had concerns over this practice. They then said that "because of the concerns of the players they would, for the launch of the game, remove the ability to buy items with cash and put them up for sale in the in game marketplace" (paraphrasing).
My thought was that if this is in the game that it would eventually come to the game. However, what better way to not drive off potential first time customers then to say they are removing something that some don't like.
Since games like Aion and Tera allow this it made sense that it would come to Black Desert. The problem is that some players feel like certain things are written in stone with these developers. I don't know why but apparently stuff like this is a huge surprise.
I think going forward players should just assume anything is possible and either come to terms with it or just don't purchase/patronize these games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
I pity people who feel they cannot handle their own purchase decisions...never understood that attitude either.
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
I pity people who feel they cannot handle their own purchase decisions...never understood that attitude either.
Very little people can do about handling their purchase decisions when the product they purchased does a bait and switch to change the product purchased *after* the purchase decisuon was made.
LacedOpium said: Very little people can do about handling their purchase decisions when the product they purchased does a bait and switch to change the product purchased *after* the purchase decisuon was made.
Understanding that this isn't a case of bait and switch would make a good place to start...
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
I pity people who feel they cannot handle their own purchase decisions...never understood that attitude either.
Very little people can do about handling their purchase decisions when the product they purchased does a bait and switch to change the product purchased *after* the purchase decisuon was made.
But Laced , thats not true , as was pointed out in the other thread by Kano , they did say before launch that this exact cash shop mechanic could/would be implemented after launch ...
And , taking that into consideration , i would be surprised if any chargebacks were granted , This information was very clealry stated and availle for any consumer to read , If they took the time to research the product and company before hand ...
Knowing how PA/Daum business practices were , many here also voiced there concerns before launch , Of course we were attacked ..labled ... reported .. etc .....
There was no Bait and Switch ... Only foolish consumers who got caught up in the new shiny and didnt research there purchase...
The info provided by Kano in other thread.. If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there
will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily
profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on
the marketplace
For me, what i find the most troubling about all of this is that the game was released as B2P. Had it been released as F2P I would have no problem with this chosen monetary business plan because, to be honest, this has very little impact on my style of play.
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
I pity people who feel they cannot handle their own purchase decisions...never understood that attitude either.
Very little people can do about handling their purchase decisions when the product they purchased does a bait and switch to change the product purchased *after* the purchase decisuon was made.
But Laced , thats not true , as was pointed out in the other thread by Kano , they did say before launch that this exact cash shop mechanic could/would be implemented after launch ...
And , taking that into consideration , i would be surprised if any chargebacks were granted , This information was very clealry stated and availle for any consumer to read , If they took the time to research the product and company before hand ...
Knowing how PA/Daum business practices were , many here also voiced there concerns before launch , Of course we were attacked ..labled ... reported .. etc .....
There was no Bait and Switch ... Only foolish consumers who got caught up in the new shiny and didnt research there purchase...
The info provided by Kano in other thread.. If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there
will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily
profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on
the marketplace
"MMOs, the only product in which every consumer is required to do heavy hidden small print online research before making a purchase because the product purchased will, in short order, morph into a totally unrecognizable product than the one purchased."
Sort of like Cinderella whereas her glam ride turns into a clunker. Just have to do diligent research to become well informed as to when the virtual clock might turn to 12:00 rendering that shiny new MMO a clunker.
Very much so as two unrelated things are being conflated.
In the picture the upper sign refers to automotive traffic, the bottom one to foot traffic in an emergency. Although I suppose it might be different in the U.S.
Very much so as two unrelated things are being conflated.
In the picture the upper sign refers to automotive traffic, the bottom one to foot traffic in an emergency. Although I suppose it might be different in the U.S.
Generally speaking, evacuation route street signs in the U.S. are for cars - it's hard to know what the intent was here.
The guy was banned for posting that. Controversial? Sure - but certainly not anywhere near the most vitriolic thing that BDO's forums have seen in the past 48 hours. But the ban hammer came down nonetheless: thread deleted, user bludgeoned into silence.
Honestly, as an MMORPG company, you couldn't draw up a battleplan to sink your own stock and trade faster than what Daum/Kakao (or however the hell it's spelled) are doing. It's absolutely amazing how out-of-touch they are, and even more bizarre that they believe that in the most tech-savvy era in human history that word of their shenanigans wouldn't IMMEDIATELY get out and be poured like gasoline back onto the fire brewing in their backyard.
Now every 3rd post is quoting that deleted thread! There's nothing like successful censorship!
The player in question posted about illegal or illicit activities in a previous post and was warned by GM then created another account to bypass the warning.
The user shall not promote illegal or illicit activities including cheating and the use of exploits.
The user will not create additional forum accounts in order to bypass any warning, suspension, ban or purport themselves as someone else.
Before you jump to hasty conclusion you might want to get to the bottom of things. The player in question made it sound like he was being cencored but he was just being another person who can't follow the rules.
The guy was banned for posting that. Controversial? Sure - but certainly not anywhere near the most vitriolic thing that BDO's forums have seen in the past 48 hours. But the ban hammer came down nonetheless: thread deleted, user bludgeoned into silence.
Honestly, as an MMORPG company, you couldn't draw up a battleplan to sink your own stock and trade faster than what Daum/Kakao (or however the hell it's spelled) are doing. It's absolutely amazing how out-of-touch they are, and even more bizarre that they believe that in the most tech-savvy era in human history that word of their shenanigans wouldn't IMMEDIATELY get out and be poured like gasoline back onto the fire brewing in their backyard.
Now every 3rd post is quoting that deleted thread! There's nothing like successful censorship!
The player in question posted about illegal or illicit activities in a previous post and was warned by GM then created another account to bypass the warning.
The user shall not promote illegal or illicit activities including cheating and the use of exploits.
The user will not create additional forum accounts in order to bypass any warning, suspension, ban or purport themselves as someone else.
Before you jump to hasty conclusion you might want to get to the bottom of things. The player in question made it sound like he was being cencored but he was just being another person who can't follow the rules.
I had my account deleted there last night. No swearing... no threats... no sharing of hacks or exploits. I was active in the thread talking with others about chargebacks - this morning? Banned. No warnings; no prior warnings to this date on the account. Just banned.
Yes, censorship is happening there - his is hardly an isolated example.
Dakeru said: what do they actually gain from banning this guy who gave constructive feedback other than losing the trust of the players?
1) His post wasn't constructive. That is why he got banned and thread deleted. 2) Removing such posts makes the forum cleaner, better to read.
Better to read for whom? I would prefer to be a big boy and filter out things for myself. Guess that makes me a No Lifer by your definition, but I would rather sift through bad opinions than have someone sanitize it for vulcan logic's sake, or to remove all the bad feelings statements to create a safe zone.
People who chant Vocal Minority are always putting a collar on the unknown and trying to pull the leash.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Archlyte said: Better to read for whom? I would prefer to be a big boy and filter out things for myself. Guess that makes me a No Lifer by your definition, but I would rather sift through bad opinions than have someone sanitize it for vulcan logic's sake, or to remove all the bad feelings statements to create a safe zone.
People who chant Vocal Minority are always putting a collar on the unknown and trying to pull the leash.
Better to read for anyone looking for factual information and discussion - something I would expect from company running the game and their forums. The forums are there for their customers to discuss the game, not a tool to vent off their frustration.
I do not see a relation between moderation and "no-lifers", can you enlighten me on that one?
You mistake moderation of non-constructive posts with moderation of negative feedback. You can still be critical and express your dissatisfaction in constructive, polite manner.
Archlyte said: Better to read for whom? I would prefer to be a big boy and filter out things for myself. Guess that makes me a No Lifer by your definition, but I would rather sift through bad opinions than have someone sanitize it for vulcan logic's sake, or to remove all the bad feelings statements to create a safe zone.
People who chant Vocal Minority are always putting a collar on the unknown and trying to pull the leash.
Better to read for anyone looking for factual information and discussion - something I would expect from company running the game and their forums. The forums are there for their customers to discuss the game, not a tool to vent off their frustration.
I do not see a relation between moderation and "no-lifers", can you enlighten me on that one?
You mistake moderation of non-constructive posts with moderation of negative feedback. You can still be critical and express your dissatisfaction in constructive, polite manner.
Vocal minorities are real, sorry.
By that definition, should we also censor you because your comments are non-constructive, and can easily be defined as being a 'vocal minority' ?
Phry said: By that definition, should we also censor you because your comments are non-constructive, and can easily be defined as being a 'vocal minority' ?
So I'll take with a grain of salt any outcry of people leaving in droves until I actually see it.
There's no grain of salt involved in the fact that if that patch ever goes live, what will most likely happen, Daum/Kakao/Pearl will never ever get even just a single cent of my money. Neither for this game, nor for any future game they could publish. I've made that oath for a couple of companies before already, and I never broke it.
I bought some shop stuff before to support them. I would have gladly continued. That is over if they go that route. I will possibly keep on playing, but as a "leech", using bandwidth without paying a cent, since it's perfectly possible with my play style and all I ever bought was cosmetic anyway. I actually intend to steal that gold from the whale by making them buy my wares.
And that's obviously a good way to play. I'm not for people doing things they don't feel comfortable about.
However, the idea that a large amount or majority feel the way you do or the OP might not be true.
Fact is a huge amount of players are pissed right now. I don't know if it's a majority, but when all PvP guilds use the "no P2W" logo, it's a sign.
Note that I absolutely not regret my purchase, I got 6 months of solid fun and I most likely will get a couple of months more fun, so I won't charge back. It would be dishonest from me, not to mention it would most likely not work, some people here seem to be overconfident about what their bank will agree on about a video game.
I just think that they could have done it more elegantly. Remains to be seen what impact it will have on the game. I don't see many players wasting their silver to buy a 70 million cosmetic costume, when the same sum would allow them to upgrade and maintain their own gear. The non-whales are precisely those who will not want to waste their in game currency for some basically useless costume.
Yes a lot of people are pissed right now, but will they still be pissed in a months time?
Yes it could have been done more elegantly, but in the end what is going to matter is the impact on cash flow. They obviously want a faster flow of cash and are prepared to accept long term losses if they get it.
Comments
Second, it is entirely irrelevant.
They can change their mind any time and that will be all fine. One would need to be seriously dim-witted not to re-consider their past decisions when they do not work out as planned.
Then we have ' the facts on the ground' with nary an established fact in sight.
Lots of hyperbole, colorful language, a slur on someone's knowledge of the English language and high emotion. But no facts just opinions.
The post was in breech of fairly ordinary TOS it got moderated. Banning the user may have been harsh or it may have been based on past behavior or due to attacks on the moderator in private messages. But it was certainly within the companies pervue to make that decision.
I'm not a fan of using cash shops for RMT in this or any other game but that post was a bit over the top.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
However, the idea that a large amount or majority feel the way you do or the OP might not be true.
I'll leave this article for the OP:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33371/GDC_2011_Perfecting_The_FreeToPlay_Battlefield_Heroes.php
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think we are all under the understanding that MMOS evolve and change over time. But it's only been five months for crissakes. So it becomes transparently obvious now that releasing the game as a B2P was nothing more than a massive cash grab.
These bait and switch practices by these gaming companies that slowly creep away from an initial business plan in a slow but deliberate drip into full blown cash grabs are getting really old. It's a deceptive and fraudulent practice that is only permissible in this industry and it needs to stop. Consumers deserve better.
I felt the writing was on the wall. At the start of the game people had concerns over this practice. They then said that "because of the concerns of the players they would, for the launch of the game, remove the ability to buy items with cash and put them up for sale in the in game marketplace" (paraphrasing).
My thought was that if this is in the game that it would eventually come to the game. However, what better way to not drive off potential first time customers then to say they are removing something that some don't like.
Since games like Aion and Tera allow this it made sense that it would come to Black Desert. The problem is that some players feel like certain things are written in stone with these developers. I don't know why but apparently stuff like this is a huge surprise.
I think going forward players should just assume anything is possible and either come to terms with it or just don't purchase/patronize these games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
/shrugs
And , taking that into consideration , i would be surprised if any chargebacks were granted , This information was very clealry stated and availle for any consumer to read , If they took the time to research the product and company before hand ...
Knowing how PA/Daum business practices were , many here also voiced there concerns before launch , Of course we were attacked ..labled ... reported .. etc .....
There was no Bait and Switch ... Only foolish consumers who got caught up in the new shiny and didnt research there purchase...
The info provided by Kano in other thread..
If we decide to enable selling Cash Shop Items at a later stage, there will be control mechanisms that will prevent players from heavily profiting and gaining an advantage by repetitively selling Cash Items on the marketplace
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/8038-pm-diary-22-cash-shop-and-more/
"MMOs, the only product in which every consumer is required to do heavy hidden small print online research before making a purchase because the product purchased will, in short order, morph into a totally unrecognizable product than the one purchased."
Sort of like Cinderella whereas her glam ride turns into a clunker. Just have to do diligent research to become well informed as to when the virtual clock might turn to 12:00 rendering that shiny new MMO a clunker.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
In the picture the upper sign refers to automotive traffic, the bottom one to foot traffic in an emergency. Although I suppose it might be different in the U.S.
- The user shall not promote illegal or illicit activities including cheating and the use of exploits.
- The user will not create additional forum accounts in order to bypass any warning, suspension, ban or purport themselves as someone else.
Before you jump to hasty conclusion you might want to get to the bottom of things. The player in question made it sound like he was being cencored but he was just being another person who can't follow the rules.Yes, censorship is happening there - his is hardly an isolated example.
People who chant Vocal Minority are always putting a collar on the unknown and trying to pull the leash.
I do not see a relation between moderation and "no-lifers", can you enlighten me on that one?
You mistake moderation of non-constructive posts with moderation of negative feedback. You can still be critical and express your dissatisfaction in constructive, polite manner.
Vocal minorities are real, sorry.
Yes it could have been done more elegantly, but in the end what is going to matter is the impact on cash flow. They obviously want a faster flow of cash and are prepared to accept long term losses if they get it.