Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Black Desert gone HARD p2w! (Cash shop Items, available at Market Place next week)

1679111216

Comments

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Western gamers....i love their salt...

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • KellerKeller Member UncommonPosts: 602
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
    Yup.  Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.

    P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game.  How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?

    In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part".  Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP.  That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.


    P2W is a complete misnomer  - it's pay to advance faster.



    Sometimes you say the silliest things :awesome:

    You know better than that.  Or at least you should.

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.


    That is exactly the basis behind the majority of most cash shops.

    so are they P2W, are they a misnomer, or is it "pay to advance faster?"

    Make up your mind.


    I think you missed my point.

    What you quoted right there is what I consider actually worthy of the label "pay to win" - lets say there ia a hypothetical game where as you spend money in the cash shop you get gear that puts you in god-mode, and the only way to obtain this is from the cash shop.

    Other players who didn't spend any money in this hypothetical game can never catch up to you as the god-mode gear is not available via normal gameplay.

    That is pay to win - and yet when p2w is brought up by many players what they really mean us pay to advance faster. 



    I hope that clears it up.

    I agree with your explanation, but it is incomplete. Again define faster.

    A week or a month is a huge difference. Required time to get cashshop currency by grinding can mean to some (or most?) also impossible too.
  • redonyouredonyou Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Quizzical said:
    I asked a question some pages ago and didn't see an answer.  I still want an answer.  Anyway, my question is:

    Does this materially affect anything outside of the endgame?  If you want to argue that there is no endgame, then does it materially affect anything outside of high level gameplay?
    Like I said the first time you asked it, it's a competitive game with open PvP in this game after level 45. It's possible to hit level 45 within the first 24 hours of playing the game, so we're not talking "endgame" here.

    Is it possible for you to enjoy the game without being overly affected by what gear other people have, or whether they can one shot you at any point in time if they feel like? The answer to that varies from person to person. If you aren't overly competitive, don't like PvP, and just content with doing your own thing at your own pace, than maybe this won't bother you too much.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    edited August 2016
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 859
    Who cares. If you enjoy the game play it. If you don't enjoy the game or disagree with something then don't play.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    fodell54 said:
    Who cares. If you enjoy the game play it. If you don't enjoy the game or disagree with something then don't play.

    Precisely - those players who genuinely like the game - as in mechanics and just playing for fun are not going to leave because of this change - because the FUN of playing remains the same.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    redonyou said:
     If you aren't overly competitive, don't like PvP, and just content with doing your own thing at your own pace, than maybe this won't bother you too much.

    I'd say it won't bother those players one bit.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,732
    edited August 2016
    For those defending the cash shop as a mean to skip effort and time...

    I'm sorry. Life is already pay to win, I won't play a game, which the genre itself spins around players competing using theirs skills in a situations where they all start with the same tools, if it has anything advantageous purchasable with real life money.

    If you don't have time for certain activity, don't do it.

    What's next? You'll hire a professional soccer player to attend in your place because you don't have time to practice? Or, as you say it's not p2w, pay so your goal is smaller than the other team? Or pay so one side of the field is way shorter than the other you are defending? Or pay to ignore yellow cards when you fault? Or, when you are about to kick, someone replaces the ball for a better one? How is that fun?! I don't get it.

    They still can score goals, just aim better the kicks. 

    Yeah, that's not p2w at all.

    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
    Yup.  Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.

    P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game.  How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?

    In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part".  Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP.  That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.


    P2W is a complete misnomer  - it's pay to advance faster.



    Sometimes you say the silliest things :awesome:

    You know better than that.  Or at least you should.

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking a it is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.

    I think what a lot our feeling is due to the fact a cash type player didn't suffer enough to get there. I agree it isn't technically P2W but maybe it should be? If you spend countless hours grinding and suffering there has to be some validity to to it :) I mean if there isn't then why the hell did we waste so much time? Wait that last sentence was deep, but oddly enlightening o:)



    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,732
    Lol?

    Everyone has the same amount of time. Last time I checked everyone has the same something near 24 hours a day.

    Because you have certain tasks which leaves no time for certain things doesn't mean the others have wait for you. They are your choices.

    Now, last time I checked, the same can not be said to money.

    And... Last time I checked on the box of the games or on it's descriptions it doesn't says "Attention: To progress it requires to shove more money".
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,008
    A large chunk was gonna stop playing for legion at the end of the month anyway (and probably be back 1-2 months later), so honestly Daum/PA can do what they want lol wont matter for now.
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,905
    I'm okay with this. 
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Quizzical said:
    I asked a question some pages ago and didn't see an answer.  I still want an answer.  Anyway, my question is:

    Does this materially affect anything outside of the endgame?  If you want to argue that there is no endgame, then does it materially affect anything outside of high level gameplay?
    The short and overly simple answer is that it only affects endgame. You might find an argument somewhere that a newbie selling something from the cash shop will grant advantage while leveling.

    I feel the worry about people buying maxed gear is vastly overstated. The powerful gear has to exist in the first place. In a pvp game if a piece of gear is too powerful it won't get sold to an enemy. If someone is willing to sell it then it must not be a deal breaker. So it being on the market means that somebody who already has the resources to gear is selling it. If anything this could redistribute wealth across the game.

    The problem here, like a few have pointed out, is that those with more time have had an advantage up to this point. This levels that field a bit and generates revenue.

    The main concern should be whether this is a direct silver fount or not. If the silver must already exist in the game then it's fine. If this is actually a hidden silver sink then all the better. However, if it's a fount it could cause horrible inflation. The devs should consider that and I'm sure they have.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • azurreiazurrei Member UncommonPosts: 332
    DMKano said:
    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    Yeah, I do see a problem - one person is actually earning their progression through the game, the other is just being handed progression because they can afford to pay off the game devs to allow them ways to meet or exceed other players in game "work."  There are plenty of non-gaming analogies I could give but I don't do those anymore as hardcore gamers can't admit the "real" world exists...  If someone doesn't have the time to keep up with the no life players other than buying progression, then the developers of the game fail at making a fair, well designed progression game.  Allowing gamers to throw money at developers in order to fix a games bad design is a slap in the face to every player.  And at the end of the day, players who play more should be more progressed - it just shouldn't be such a large margin that the only choices of being competitive are no life 24/7 or pay $$$$.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    edited August 2016
    Nyctelios said:
    Lol?

    Everyone has the same amount of time. Last time I checked everyone has the same something near 24 hours a day.

    Because you have certain tasks which leaves no time for certain things doesn't mean the others have wait for you. They are your choices.

    Now, last time I checked, the same can not be said to money.

    And... Last time I checked on the box of the games or on it's descriptions it doesn't says "Attention: To progress it requires to shove more money".

    Complete fallacy.

    A family person who has a full time job DOES NOT have the same amount of time in the day as a college student on summer break.

    So just because everyone shares the same 24 hours a day - does not mean that everyone has the same amount of time to devote to online gaming.

    Inequality of time exists - just like inequality of money.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    DMKano said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Lol?

    Everyone has the same amount of time. Last time I checked everyone has the same something near 24 hours a day.

    Because you have certain tasks which leaves no time for certain things doesn't mean the others have wait for you. They are your choices.

    Now, last time I checked, the same can not be said to money.

    And... Last time I checked on the box of the games or on it's descriptions it doesn't says "Attention: To progress it requires to shove more money".

    Complete fallacy.

    A family person who has a full time job DOES NOT have the same amount of time in the day as a college student on summer break.

    So just because everyone shares the same 24 hours a day - does not mean that everyone has the same amount of time to devote to online gaming.

    Inequality of time exists - just like inequality of money.


    I don't think it's the people with a lot of time or some extra disposable income that are really upset here. This change benefits both of them. The people upset are those with less free time and little to no extra disposable income. They don't have quite enough free time to farm themselves to riches and not enough money to buy the items.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,633
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:

    So yeah - I sort of view it like this:

    Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time

    They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -

    And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"


    It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.

    Money and time are both valuable.

    For some reason players with a lot of time and no money  who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.

    Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.

    Why?

    Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?

    Does anyone see a problem here?

    It's quite simple and principled:  anything that gives me an advantage over you is the way things should be.  Anything that gives you an advantage over me is likely cheating that should be cracked down upon, or at best really bad game design.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:
    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3
    Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:
    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3
    Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
    Enough that I wouldn't just leave it out completely.

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:

    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3

    That's understandable - everyone has a different tolerance for "paying for an advantage"

    IMO BDO's pay for advantage is no different that majority of MMOs in the west that allow cash shop -> game currency exchange.

    Time and money is unbeatable in RL too, and people with time and money CAN always find an advantage in games anyway (via 3rd party account/gold/gear sales).



  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 22,266
    edited August 2016
    Torval said:
    DMKano said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Lol?

    Everyone has the same amount of time. Last time I checked everyone has the same something near 24 hours a day.

    Because you have certain tasks which leaves no time for certain things doesn't mean the others have wait for you. They are your choices.

    Now, last time I checked, the same can not be said to money.

    And... Last time I checked on the box of the games or on it's descriptions it doesn't says "Attention: To progress it requires to shove more money".

    Complete fallacy.

    A family person who has a full time job DOES NOT have the same amount of time in the day as a college student on summer break.

    So just because everyone shares the same 24 hours a day - does not mean that everyone has the same amount of time to devote to online gaming.

    Inequality of time exists - just like inequality of money.


    I don't think it's the people with a lot of time or some extra disposable income that are really upset here. This change benefits both of them. The people upset are those with less free time and little to no extra disposable income. They don't have quite enough free time to farm themselves to riches and not enough money to buy the items.

    That is indeed a problem - but IMO this has more to do with distribution of wealth and is a socio-economic problem beyond the scope of video games.

    People with little time and little money are disadvantaged from start, it's a sad reality.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Nilden said:
    Torval said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Nilden said:
    DMKano said:
    Keller said:
    DMKano said:
    P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money

    That is p2w.

    What everyone is talking about is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.

    It's pay to advance faster.

    It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.

    So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.

    Those with a crapton of time can get there. 

    Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.

    The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.


    Define faster. When one has to grind non-stop ingame currency for 3 months in order to exchange that for cash-shop currency to buy one "very useful" or must have item, then P2W or not doesn't even matter anymore to many. 

    Not only that, but what he also fails to realize is that many players may not posses the skill or capability to attain the elite gear requirements to be able to compete, and therefore, win at the highest level.  Buying that "elite" requirement, be it via gear or a high level toon, would, in fact, constitute an accurate example of P2W.  Because without having "bought" that "elite" gear or toon, that player would not have otherwise been capable of "achieving," or "winning" those higher level encounters.


    So you are talking about player skill playing a part.

    Why don't we talk about all the different factors that play a part - the differences between players:


    1. Time - some have a lot of free time others, don't
    2. Money - some have a lot of disposable income, others not so much
    3. Player skill  - yeah self explanatory
    4. Insert your own - like intelligence, etc....


    Why do some only have a problem with MONEY being a differentiating factor? Inequalities exist in 1-4 and they always will

    But for some reason if another players spends money because they don't have time - oh no, this is bad... why?

    Lets be real - the wealth is not distrubted equally - a very small % of the worlds population has majority of wealth - this is the world we live in.

    So WHY wouldn't be ok for wealthy to finance games for the rest of us - as they spend money in cash shops and they get to catch up to end-game players very fast - but again they don't get to be the top dog because they may not have the skill etc.. and could be terrible in PvP etc...

    Still why solely focus on how much someone pays - why ignore time etc...?

    How people earn and spend their money is their own business, - again the whole P2W argument comes down to this flawed idea that while money provides an advantage pretty much in all facets of life - somehow - it shouldn't in games - it's absurd. 

    It does, as people buy fully geared accoutns etc.. and have been doing so since the dawn of online games.
    Are you serious? You can't see why people have a problem with P2W and cash shops?

    What would you think if you went over to someones house to play monopoly and they offered a cash shop where they sold monopoly money for real money?

    How about the integrity of the game? Actually playing it to earn  rewards instead of just buying them...

    Come now - apples and oranges - Monopoly would be totally ruined as the game is NOT a MMO and has a very clear "win" condition.

    On the other hand BDO being a MMO keeps its integrity in check because:

    1. Players who want to spend a lot of time grinding, and playing can do so and get all the end game items - it will take a LONG time

    2. Players who want to spend money and fast track to end game - can do so as well


    Both are on equal footing eventually as equal gear is constantly available to both players - so they are on equal footing in the end.

    Some like the grind - some don't - cash being given as an option to circumvent the grind is a blessing for many, it's just another avenue that leads to the same end game gear.
    It ruins the game just the same for me. Selling in-game currency is the same thing when it comes to killing the game, I don't care about a win condition it's the advantage being sold that makes it P2W.

    Your example missed a whole third party:

    1 time
    2 money
    3 time and money

    1 and 2 will never touch 3
    Is 3 a significant factor? Is it even a measurable factor? How many people have all the free time and a ton of money.
    Enough that I wouldn't just leave it out completely.
    Well, how do you know? How do you know that it is a measurable factor?
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


Sign In or Register to comment.