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Black Desert gone HARD p2w! (Cash shop Items, available at Market Place next week)

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Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,115
    redonyou said:
    DMKano said:
    Quizzical said:
    While I haven't played the game, I don't see what the big deal is.  Maybe I just misunderstand the situation.  As I understand it, there are items in the item mall that people want for various reasons.  Right now, you can buy them with real-life money, but they can't be traded in-game.  And now they're changing it so that those items can be traded in game.  Is that all?  If that's all it is, then to me, the surprise would be that the items couldn't be traded before.

    Or is there more to it than that?  Could someone please explain why you say this is such a horrible thing?


    Yep that's all it is - which is what the vast majority of MMOS in the west allow already - selling cash shop items for in game currency.


    Most of those (at least in the the western market) don't have a gear progression like BDO's where you can spend thousands of dollars to enable god-mode in PvP.

    Edit: To be fair, we have to wait and see how much it will actually cost to obtain full BiS gear.
    So basically, the objection is that the publisher is trying to take over the market that was formerly the domain of "gold sellers" by giving players a legal way to indirectly buy silver?

    Provided that this only redistributes silver rather than creating it, all this does is redistribute which other players have the best weapons in the game.  By moving it to people with more money than time rather than other way around, if anything, it would make the average player online have worse weapons than before.  For that matter, if it diminishes the market for gold sellers, it might mean less gold seller farming and less silver in the system, so worse weapons all around than before.
  • redonyouredonyou Member UncommonPosts: 32
    There are no gold sellers in the game because there is no trading enabled in the game. (Except for consumables which become bound to the character they're traded to after 1 transaction...). So it's more like, they took such a hard stance against gold sellers that they disabled a core function of an MMORPG (trading) in order to do so, and then went in and assumed that role themselves 6 months into the game.
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 482
    Imagine in Monopoly if you could just hand the banker a quick $20 and slipped you Boardwalk and Park Place under the table.... How fun that game would be huh... I can still remember back in the day when people had to actually play and work towards their goals in MMO's. Progression, stats and riches could not be bought with real world cash...Those were the days. Can't wait for Pantheon Rise Of The Fallen. 
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,726
    beebop500 said:
    I'm glad that my CB experience, and the 7-day pass I got from a friend, showed me that the texture pop-in in this game is so abhorrent that it gave me a headache. 

    "Technical marvel", my ass.  "Pushing the boundaries of PC graphics", my ass x2.  When an expensive gaming rig produces foliage and features morphing 5 meters from my character, methinks the game needs some serious work before it launches.  Ooops, guess it's too late for that.
    There's an update coming for NPC drawing distance.
    No guarantee it'll change things much of course... but something is coming at least.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,508
    So, basically, another Bait&Switch.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P ignorant of the mess this business model would have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month.  Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.

    Fair enough , except I only play sub games, well EQ2 is a bit of both, but this shit just rubs me the wrong way.
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,726

    This is a boon for the non-competitive PvE role player type and a loss of massive proportions to the competitive PvP centric type player.  In case anyone had any doubts as to where the money/profit is in MMORPGs (and I know some of you PvP-centric types do), this move should erase all doubt quite convincingly.  

    PvP-centric game play in MMORPGs will always incorporate a P2W component that will have very little impact on the PvE role player types but that will have huge repercussions toward its competitive PvP game play.  In weighing their profit margin decisions, developers/publishers are willing to sacrifice the concerns of the minority competitive PvP-centric players in MMORPGs in favor of its majority PvE-centric MMORPG demographic. 
    Pretty much. The first sign they weren't going to cater to the hardcore PvPers exclusively was when they moved away from the original concept (which @DMKano and a few others have complained loudly about several times xD). Then once again when they took away the ability to properly grief others with XP loss, and took away the ability for griefer guilds to declare guild wars on guilds that have no interest in PvP.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ThourneThourne Member RarePosts: 757
    Thourne said:
    Well they just lost this customer.
    I happily spent 50ish dollars a month on pets, costumes, etc because I enjoyed the game.

    Then they added the packs and I was concerned....they are basically a sub on top of the B2P+Cash Store.

    Now this...I'm out.


    So let me get this straight... DO you think a company can make it on just a box copy of 30 bucks ?? Then keep adding free content?????      I have been in this industry a long time, they won't last 2 mins just on a box copy...This is business.......Elder Scrolls online charges for new content,  20-50 bucks.. every update nearly.... and they have a store to sell stuff.....

    This is business..   No game company can stay in business off of 30 bucks .... a person... Yes some may pay more ...But they can't count on that ...They do not have a SUB... That is how old MMO's made it.

    Now they don't have one, which I love since I don't have 20 hours a day to play one game, so people love it..No one is forcing you to buy from  a store....   


    Please make  a  game, then run it to understand why things are the way they are...Now the Pay to Win part that part I do agree with everyone...They need to keep  out stats where it effects other players to gain advantage ...That I agree..

    But anything else is fair game...  I love that I can buy inventory and a lot of it... Otherwise if I was Black Desert  I  would say screw you all, and sell content like Elder Scrolls does, they are doing well that way....

    I bet you people  would throw a fit... Then sell stuff on the store....I personally think all of this is ok, as long as they rethink the stat gains from gear.. The rest is ok...

    Completely missed the part where I flat out said I was "Happily spending money every month did ya?".

    Do not underestimate what many people will pay for vanity and convenience items if the game is enjoyable.

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

    This is a boon for the non-competitive PvE role player type and a loss of massive proportions to the competitive PvP centric type player.  In case anyone had any doubts as to where the money/profit is in MMORPGs (and I know some of you PvP-centric types do), this move should erase all doubt quite convincingly.  

    PvP-centric game play in MMORPGs will always incorporate a P2W component that will have very little impact on the PvE role player types but that will have huge repercussions toward its competitive PvP game play.  In weighing their profit margin decisions, developers/publishers are willing to sacrifice the concerns of the minority competitive PvP-centric players in MMORPGs in favor of its majority PvE-centric MMORPG demographic. 
    Pretty much. The first sign they weren't going to cater to the hardcore PvPers exclusively was when they moved away from the original concept (which @DMKano and a few others have complained loudly about several times xD). Then once again when they took away the ability to properly grief others with XP loss, and took away the ability for griefer guilds to declare guild wars on guilds that have no interest in PvP.

    The next shoe to drop will be the PvP opt in quest at level 50.  Wait for it.  It's coming to a BDO near you real soon.
  • ThourneThourne Member RarePosts: 757

    This is a boon for the non-competitive PvE role player type and a loss of massive proportions to the competitive PvP centric type player.  In case anyone had any doubts as to where the money/profit is in MMORPGs (and I know some of you PvP-centric types do), this move should erase all doubt quite convincingly.  

    PvP-centric game play in MMORPGs will always incorporate a P2W component that will have very little impact on the PvE role player types but that will have huge repercussions toward its competitive PvP game play.  In weighing their profit margin decisions, developers/publishers are willing to sacrifice the concerns of the minority competitive PvP-centric players in MMORPGs in favor of its majority PvE-centric MMORPG demographic. 
    Pretty much. The first sign they weren't going to cater to the hardcore PvPers exclusively was when they moved away from the original concept (which @DMKano and a few others have complained loudly about several times xD). Then once again when they took away the ability to properly grief others with XP loss, and took away the ability for griefer guilds to declare guild wars on guilds that have no interest in PvP.

    The next shoe to drop will be the PvP opt in quest at level 50.  Wait for it.  It's coming to a BDO near you real soon.
    They shoulda left it at 50 from the start.
    We would have avoided so much confusion from very upset pve players.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,546
    Thourne said:
    Thourne said:
    Well they just lost this customer.
    I happily spent 50ish dollars a month on pets, costumes, etc because I enjoyed the game.

    Then they added the packs and I was concerned....they are basically a sub on top of the B2P+Cash Store.

    Now this...I'm out.


    So let me get this straight... DO you think a company can make it on just a box copy of 30 bucks ?? Then keep adding free content?????      I have been in this industry a long time, they won't last 2 mins just on a box copy...This is business.......Elder Scrolls online charges for new content,  20-50 bucks.. every update nearly.... and they have a store to sell stuff.....

    This is business..   No game company can stay in business off of 30 bucks .... a person... Yes some may pay more ...But they can't count on that ...They do not have a SUB... That is how old MMO's made it.

    Now they don't have one, which I love since I don't have 20 hours a day to play one game, so people love it..No one is forcing you to buy from  a store....   


    Please make  a  game, then run it to understand why things are the way they are...Now the Pay to Win part that part I do agree with everyone...They need to keep  out stats where it effects other players to gain advantage ...That I agree..

    But anything else is fair game...  I love that I can buy inventory and a lot of it... Otherwise if I was Black Desert  I  would say screw you all, and sell content like Elder Scrolls does, they are doing well that way....

    I bet you people  would throw a fit... Then sell stuff on the store....I personally think all of this is ok, as long as they rethink the stat gains from gear.. The rest is ok...

    Completely missed the part where I flat out said I was "Happily spending money every month did ya?".

    Do not underestimate what many people will pay for vanity and convenience items if the game is enjoyable.


    Hate to burst your bubble but vanity doesn't sell for shit.  I've seen sales breakdown from several MMOs and vanity/cosmetics made up less than 5% in both of these major games  (sorry cant go into specifics due to obvious NDA issues).

    Convenience does sell pretty good but what sells the most is loot boxes and we are talking by a huge margin.

    The vast majority of F2P games are funded by loot boxe sales.


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    Thourne said:

    This is a boon for the non-competitive PvE role player type and a loss of massive proportions to the competitive PvP centric type player.  In case anyone had any doubts as to where the money/profit is in MMORPGs (and I know some of you PvP-centric types do), this move should erase all doubt quite convincingly.  

    PvP-centric game play in MMORPGs will always incorporate a P2W component that will have very little impact on the PvE role player types but that will have huge repercussions toward its competitive PvP game play.  In weighing their profit margin decisions, developers/publishers are willing to sacrifice the concerns of the minority competitive PvP-centric players in MMORPGs in favor of its majority PvE-centric MMORPG demographic. 
    Pretty much. The first sign they weren't going to cater to the hardcore PvPers exclusively was when they moved away from the original concept (which @DMKano and a few others have complained loudly about several times xD). Then once again when they took away the ability to properly grief others with XP loss, and took away the ability for griefer guilds to declare guild wars on guilds that have no interest in PvP.

    The next shoe to drop will be the PvP opt in quest at level 50.  Wait for it.  It's coming to a BDO near you real soon.
    They shoulda left it at 50 from the start.
    We would have avoided so much confusion from very upset pve players.
    From an MMORPG business stand point, it is always much more profitable to initially cater to the PvP-centric crowd, then after maximizing their profit potential from that demographic, gradually convert the game to satisfy the PvE-centric demographic, than the other way around.  The PvE demographic may be slow in coming when a game is perceived to initally be PvP-centric, but come they will if the game ever becomes more PvE-centric.  The same does not apply the other way around.  

    Once a game has been deemed to be initially PvE centric, a change in business model from PvE centric to PvP centric will never garner enough financial support to keep it financially viable well into the future.  Not only will the PvP-centric tend to stay away from a game that was initially released as PvE-centric, but that niche crowd, even if it does decide to come, is not worth catering to at the expense of the larger PvE centric demographic.

    Developers/publishers are well aware of the where the larger profit margins lie between the two when it comes to the MMORPG genre.
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    edited August 2016
    well well well

    B2P that just the new f2p, they just get a games price with the f2p lol... when it got a cash shop too... that f2p.

    peoples like me have told you it will happen before the games releases, would be about time you trust peoples like me, the one who say stuft you dislike about the p2win part ect,

    me for exemple i did play the original version and it was clear like water it would happen soon but so many peoples were just not ready to get told about this fact, like they want deny the reality, that ''the game''
     insulting peoples like me....

    i did warn peoples before archeage too

    im quite proud of that btw, right 2 times that not bad honestly

    in fact you do : p2p = okay, b2p = okay at first then p2win    
    freetoplay = not okay, but okay first months then they go all out and get all the money they can
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    edited August 2016
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
    Yup.  Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.

    P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game.  How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?

    In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part".  Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP.  That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.
  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Archeage, Blade n Soul, Black Desert Online, will we never learn?
    I guess we as players are so desperate for a good game to play again we will bite at anything.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,508
    Sorry to be off topic but...
    What's wrong with these stalkers going on all posts from someone that did a reply clicking on "LOL" button in every single one (even on posts in another threads)?

    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • CeryshenCeryshen Member UncommonPosts: 73
    Why are people surprised?
  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,588
    I wonder what gaming life would be like if every game was good, and without flaw. What game would we choose? If there were no bad games, would we still come to this forum too vent our frustrations? I can't imagine not coming here and chatting about gaming life. Maybe I'm coming here because this forum is a game I like to play. So confused :)
     
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,725
    edited August 2016
    Nyctelios said:
    Sorry to be off topic but...
    What's wrong with these stalkers going on all posts from someone that did a reply clicking on "LOL" button in every single one (even on posts in another threads)?
    ...because those posts are so ridiculously silly one has to laugh at them.

    Example:
    If people sell 5 of them a week, that's an extra 350 million they have out of thin air every week.
    They are not created out of thin air.

    Someone still has to gather resources and craft those items.


    Equal amount items of equal power will be created regardless. Only thing that is changing is how you may get a hold of those items - you can either grind or use RL money.

    One cannot afford the time, the other cannot afford RL money.

    Mutually beneficial exchange.


    People are just silly....
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,546
    edited August 2016
    Soki123 said:
    Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.

    Gamers brought this upon themselves.  I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold.  The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre.  This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today.  Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.  

    We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
    Yup.  Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.

    P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game.  How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?

    In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part".  Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP.  That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.


    F2P + cash shop model emerged out of survival. As mmo market became increasingly congested with more games and player retentions never got above 20% on average - there was not much choice.

    Game studios embraced it as they could run a profitable game even with low player numbera.

    P2W is a complete misnomer  - it's pay to advance faster.

    The core problem is this:

    Players that have a lot of time are at an advantage over those who don't. 

    Rich people value time more than anything as they have lots if money, but if they can skip a huge time investment and get to end game state by spending money - they will do this.


    This is why cash shops are so successful - they allow players with money to save time which is priceless 

    Also as you know there are only some players participating in end game PvP - majority of BDO players are PvE only players that couldnt care less for any PvP whatsoever 
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2016
    Nyctelios said:
    Sorry to be off topic but...
    What's wrong with these stalkers going on all posts from someone that did a reply clicking on "LOL" button in every single one (even on posts in another threads)?

    Don't mind Gdemami.  I call him "LOLGdemami."  He is well known for that type of silly behavior on this forum.  Little does he know that it says a lot more about his immature behavior than it does about the posts he spams with his silly LOL's. The joke is on him. 
  • GitmixGitmix Member UncommonPosts: 603
    Ceryshen said:
    Why are people surprised?
    Fanboyz never learn.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,415
    Well it was a beautiful idea while it lasted, too bad many people didn't seem to understand how unusually non-p2w and fair the monetization system actually was. It was close to being the holy grail of a non-p2w mmo (at least these days), now it appears to be the usual p2w crap, what a turn around! 


    ....
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