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class changes put me off buying legion :(

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  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    observer said:
    Albatroes said:
    Its just showing how lazy they are tbh. Sure I like some of the stuff but honestly after they did away with the talent tree, 
    Let me stop you right there.
    Talent tree still exists.
    The old one was just the illusion of choice, sorry everyone just looked up the 'right' spec from icy veins or some other site similar to it (Elitist Jerks for example) and they all did the same thing.
    Why?  because most of the talents weren't choice.  10% hp vs 10% healing?  I'm a healer so I choose healing duh.  They were all like that, obvious choices that only made it 'feel' like you were making your character unique.
    Now they actually have talent choices, and you can respec way easier, and adjust your play style to fit the encounter... way better.
    If it's not as flexible as GW2's "talents", then it's still "cookie cutter".  The new talents recently released are still the latter, i.e. cookie-cutter talents that everyone will look up online.  Artifact skills seems more flexible though.

    Everyone is going to unlock the entire Artifact tree. It's basically compulsory. As for the talents, there is a lot more flexibility in them than there has been in a long time. And don't fool yourself about GW2. There are optimized builds for just about everything. There is and always has been a meta that everyone bandwagons onto.  
  • syriinxsyriinx Member UncommonPosts: 1,383
    Albatroes said:
    Its just showing how lazy they are tbh. Sure I like some of the stuff but honestly after they did away with the talent tree, the choices they kept making were just showing how lazy they were getting after every expansion, because "balancing is a nightmare." Nothing will ever feel like the talent tree and they keep trying to control how people play. Beastmastery needs to play this way while Marksman has to play this way, so on and so forth. But honestly its most games now. Devs dictate to players how a class should be played so they dont have to balance as much. Yet they feel they should get more money for less work....
    Are you saying completely reworking every spec is the lazy way out?  One of Blizzard's major faults is this need to reinvent the wheel every expansion.  There are ALWAYS major class reworking.  Rotations without fail completely change every expansion.  If they were being lazy, wouldn't it be easier to keep things similar to how they were?  I don't agree with the changes, but calling them lazy is just ridiculous

    You can look at it as the game either has 12 classes with an average of 3 choices per class, or you can say it has 36 different classes (because all the specs play very differently nowadays).  That is a LOT of choice in playstyle.  And the talents do offer additional choice on top of that, even if some of the choices are either obvious or inconsequential.  90% of the old talent trees were no different.

    Yes, the initial trees allowed you to do some off the wall things like half assed shaman tank builds.  You certainly have far less options to create a shitty, but fun character.  You have just as much, if not more, options to create a viable character that pulls its own weight in a group.  I greatly prefer the old way, if only for the fact that the so called 'illusion of choice' was a fun and while it certainly was an illusion in many ways, it made for a more engaging leveling experience.  And the devs clearly dont get that (just as the devs that think fast leveling to get to gear treadmills is a recipe for success dont get what made WoW the success it was).

    But again, thinking this is laziness about being able to easily balance something is completely ridiculous.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Forgrimm said:
    natpick said:
    destroyed hunters also,the best hunter spec now is a melee spec.you should see the wow hunter forums its crazy how many unhappy people are posting and i guess its simililar with a fair few other classes also but not all to be fair.its as if blizz had a meeting and said guys weve had a good run,fuck it lets just mess things up for the hell of it.
    The forums are always filled with unhappy people (just look at this place). All of the happy people are too busy playing the game.
    The forums are also full of subscribers.

    Class changes will - I suspect  - not go down well with a % of existing subscriber. It impacts play style; and "good" players develop "timing", "feel" and know their class(es) back to front. Sometimes even a small change may tip the balance.

    Whereas returning players - whose feel has dulled and who know that they will have to "relearn" their preferred class - will be less bothered and may see the changes in a "better" light.

    The danger for Blizzard is that the returning players only return for "1-3 months". Whilst any who leave will be from the "dedicated". Blizzard know this though. However they knew it when they launched WoD as well. 
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 3,021
    gervaise1 said:
    The forums are also full of subscribers.

    Class changes will - I suspect  - not go down well with a % of existing subscriber. It impacts play style; and "good" players develop "timing", "feel" and know their class(es) back to front. Sometimes even a small change may tip the balance.

    Whereas returning players - whose feel has dulled and who know that they will have to "relearn" their preferred class - will be less bothered and may see the changes in a "better" light.

    The danger for Blizzard is that the returning players only return for "1-3 months". Whilst any who leave will be from the "dedicated". Blizzard know this though. However they knew it when they launched WoD as well. 
    This isn't the first time they've made big changes, and it won't be the last. People either adapt or they don't. But like with everything else, the people who dislike the changes are more likely to express their opinion, and do so more loudly, than people who like the changes. Forum-goers are a small (yet vocal) minority compared to the overall player-base of a game.
  • DeivosDeivos Member EpicPosts: 3,692
    Honestly I'm kind of curious about the other side-effects of a shift away from a dependency on combat rotations and other changed mechanics.

    Notably, how will it affect those that presently claim combat rotations are the pinnacle of depth. Seeing as it's been an often cited source by some that the depth of combat is characterized by interesting decisions and that somehow copying an optimal sequence of cycling said abilities ad-nauseam is the highest proof of skill. What exactly are we bound to see expressed in either a change of tune or rejection of these changes in the userbase beyond the vocal minority? As well, how it affects the stance of some of the less creative devs out there.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin

  • mainogremainogre Member UncommonPosts: 36
    edited July 2016
    Bottom line is: a lot of people in this world hate change, with WoW being no exception (people wanting legacy servers, hate to class changes etc). U can never keep everyone happy. So far I'm not a huge fan of the changes but I won't judge it until I've got my artifact. The prepatch to a new xpack has never been well liked by most WoW fans in my opinion, as it's focused on the up and coming xpack, and not the current content as much. My two cents anyway......
  • RockardRockard Member UncommonPosts: 206
    edited July 2016
    DKLond said:

     GW2 has, what, 10-20 at max?


    Bad comparison.
    Depending on the class/build you play it can get well over 20.
    For example,an Elementalist/Tempest has a base of 29 skills,and if you add in Conjured weapons you can get up to 45,although I don't see why anyone would do that.
    Or as another example,with a Engineer I play I have 5 skills from my weapon,5 from my tool belt,5 for each of the 3 Kits I use,1 Utility,and a Heal.That's 27 skills.
    And that is without counting in skill chains and dual action skills/utilities,and underwater combat skills..

    And as far as build diversity,WoW is not even close.
    Given that not all set ups are optimal,and there are better and worse builds,you have way many more options in GW2,both in gear stats,runes/sigils,and traits,than in WoW.
  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Are you trolling or something? I am still amazed that wow continues to have a billion skills instead of simplifying it. There are definitely not 4-5 buttons in your rotation. The classes I've played all have a lot more skills available to them.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • NephethNepheth Member RarePosts: 463
    edited July 2016
    So this is what you mean by dumb down?



    The butthurt on this threat is priceless... Please hate more!
  • rush1984rush1984 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    They hate because they know eventually they will give in and play Legion.  It happens every expansion, nobody is immune to it. Yeah maybe you can hold out for a month, even two, but eventually it'll get you and there is nothing you can do about it. "You are a slave, Neo."
    i will 100% ,not be getting it and im subbed currently but as soon as it runs out im done, i just went back to see if they improved game but ....lmao yeah /pass
  • rush1984rush1984 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    Ginaz said:
    axtranti said:


    Hardcore mmo market when almost all vanilla p servers have more active players than 10 retail realms combined.
    Evidence please otherwise you're just making stuff up.  And by evidence I don't mean a personal opinion or anecdotal "evidence", I mean actual numbers that are independently verifiable.
    that would be possible if blizzard didnt stop releasing their sub numbers, i wonder why that is
  • GainsNGamesGainsNGames Member UncommonPosts: 107
    rush1984 said:
    They hate because they know eventually they will give in and play Legion.  It happens every expansion, nobody is immune to it. Yeah maybe you can hold out for a month, even two, but eventually it'll get you and there is nothing you can do about it. "You are a slave, Neo."
    i will 100% ,not be getting it and im subbed currently but as soon as it runs out im done, i just went back to see if they improved game but ....lmao yeah /pass
    Your opinion of the game is solely based on your experience playing the  pre-patch. When in a few weeks a major expansion is coming out, with new zones, dungeons, features,etc...

    It's like watching a teaser trailer for a movie and saying , " looks bad, i'm not going to see it."

    Why don't you wait until Legion comes out. Play it for a month or two, then post your thoughts or a  complete review, and if you don't like it, hey that's fine. I'll respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. But I'm sorry.  I can't take you seriously when  you're salty over a pre-patch.

    Oh and you said you are not getting it? oh  really? So what happens if the expansion gets great reviews and people are enjoying it.  How long will you be able to hold out  before you whip out that credit card huh? You resubbed for a patch, so you weren't playing the game, and I can bet after WOD you told everyone you were done with  it. Yet here you are resubbed and complaining about the game once again.

    Oh and let me reiterate, "You are a slave, Neo".
  • rush1984rush1984 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    erm no
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,210
    Seeing how i played WoW long enough time to remember a little thing called... macros.... 

    I call outright bullshit on the "oh i want 15 skills on my hotbar that manage all by my self to optimal effect..." Bull... Shit.... Most people used a wowhead ot icyveins or other meta board to get the best build and back in the days.. macros. Then they had a guide on how to set up the bars and a addon to keep track on when they hit the macro in the cases it was not bot-able... (just like how the quest add-on that whoes quest objectives on the map was pretty much the top one together with DBM) 

    Why should Blizzard not act upon the info players ACTUALLY give them... Rather than act on the hot air being blown here and elsewhere... 

    Now on the subject itself....

    I main feral druid... our rotation has pretty much always been a 3 button affair fro tanks and complex beyond what is sane for dps(and we still did not cut the muster)... I just roll with the changes seeing how they tend to reinvent my class every expansion. 

    This have been a good conversation

  • CeryshenCeryshen Member UncommonPosts: 73
    Forgrimm said:
    gervaise1 said:
    The forums are also full of subscribers.

    Class changes will - I suspect  - not go down well with a % of existing subscriber. It impacts play style; and "good" players develop "timing", "feel" and know their class(es) back to front. Sometimes even a small change may tip the balance.

    Whereas returning players - whose feel has dulled and who know that they will have to "relearn" their preferred class - will be less bothered and may see the changes in a "better" light.

    The danger for Blizzard is that the returning players only return for "1-3 months". Whilst any who leave will be from the "dedicated". Blizzard know this though. However they knew it when they launched WoD as well. 
    This isn't the first time they've made big changes, and it won't be the last. People either adapt or they don't. But like with everything else, the people who dislike the changes are more likely to express their opinion, and do so more loudly, than people who like the changes. Forum-goers are a small (yet vocal) minority compared to the overall player-base of a game.

    There are usually complaints over the changes for all classes, but this time ... hunters really are broken.
    It's bad.

  • SweedeSweede Member UncommonPosts: 207
    Can't say i am all that impressed so far, and they killed world pvp which was the one kind of pvp i enjoyed, what's the point now when you gain no honor or anything from it, just bleh :(

    image

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    axtranti said:
    The best thing about WoW is that fanboys will die with it, it's like watching a Titanic that can't change it's course knowing there is an iceberg ahead. At least the fanboys will go with it, the joy.
    I hope it keeps floating, then I don't have that community enter my pvp game asking for raids, nerfs and other wow related stuff I don't like.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Just when i thought die-hard Blizzard fanboys didn't exist anymore, this thread proved me wrong.
    Even after 12 years, some of you still can't be objective with WoW.  It's really sad.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,081
    I loved playing Brewmaster. I know that BM was OP for soloing in WoD, so I expected a nerf. But I didn't expect it to become so utterly boring to play though. There are so few abilties now for every class. The first post talked about 30 active abilities. I guess that guy hasn't played recently. I don't understand another cut on abilities. If anything it feels less dynamic then before, even though this was supposed to make combat feel more dynamic.
     
    Artifact doesn't save this. It won't make it less boring, just more viable to play your role. Gameplay stays mostly the same, boring. First 100 lvls should be fun combat too. Which is not the case with for most classes atm.
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    observer said:
    Albatroes said:
    Its just showing how lazy they are tbh. Sure I like some of the stuff but honestly after they did away with the talent tree, 
    Let me stop you right there.
    Talent tree still exists.
    The old one was just the illusion of choice, sorry everyone just looked up the 'right' spec from icy veins or some other site similar to it (Elitist Jerks for example) and they all did the same thing.
    Why?  because most of the talents weren't choice.  10% hp vs 10% healing?  I'm a healer so I choose healing duh.  They were all like that, obvious choices that only made it 'feel' like you were making your character unique.
    Now they actually have talent choices, and you can respec way easier, and adjust your play style to fit the encounter... way better.
    If it's not as flexible as GW2's "talents", then it's still "cookie cutter".  The new talents recently released are still the latter, i.e. cookie-cutter talents that everyone will look up online.  Artifact skills seems more flexible though.

    Everyone is going to unlock the entire Artifact tree. It's basically compulsory. As for the talents, there is a lot more flexibility in them than there has been in a long time. And don't fool yourself about GW2. There are optimized builds for just about everything. There is and always has been a meta that everyone bandwagons onto.  
    Those optimized builds in GW2 are negligible though.  In WoW, you must be optimized if you're doing Arenas or high-end raiding.  If not, you'll be struggling to find any progression raiding guild.  They're not going to want sub-optimal players.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,210
    observer said:
    Just when i thought die-hard Blizzard fanboys didn't exist anymore, this thread proved me wrong.
    Even after 12 years, some of you still can't be objective with WoW.  It's really sad.
    That goes for all things and every direction.... You always have people defaming and defending anything from a product to a company to a individual. Just try walking in to a Man C bar with a Man U shirt on... Or ask people to tell you if Coke of Pepsi is the best.... Or just for fun... If they prefer Hilton over Trump =P 

    "fanboys" are a fact of life... you have to deal with it. 

    This have been a good conversation

  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,081
    I see a lot of people here in this thread just assuming things and not actually talking about what changed and how they experienced it.

    WoD simplified things a lot. I didn't mind actually. I never was a fan of 3 skillbars full with abilities of which you use less then 10% in a normal rotation. But I just didn't expect another cut for Legion. If there was just group play, it would not be such a problem, the classes can still fulfill their role in a group.

    But for normal questing , or soloing old content, the classes now feel very bare. And this is at lvl100, not lvl10. The artifact weapon won't change a class' core gameplay enough for that. The two classes I mostly play feel very boring now.  They work, but are just not fun to play. What attracted me to Brewmaster is gone now. It also makes me wonder how character progression feels now. I mean, this small set of abilities is the result after 100 dings.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    rush1984 said:
    After a year of not playing wow, the longest time since 2005 i thought id give wow a go and check out the new class changes.
    Ive played every major patch every expac every change this game has made and none have quite put me off as much as these ones.
    Every class in game now has only 4-5 spells in rotation ( and some utility)but thats not the biggest put off , the rotations themselves are mind numbingly boring ! ( atleast for me and alot of other players as shown on the official forums).
    How anyone could want to level to 110 like that is crazy, People will say "yeah but its better at 110 because its tuned for that" sorry but no its not gonna be the case this time.
    I know blizzard like to simplify but this has made this game pathetic now.

    I'm Glad in a way its put that final nail in for me to be honest i needed it, resubbing every x amount of months always ends in a waste of money.
    Its the kiddies time to play now and i dont mean that as an insult, the game has been reworked completely for a very young audience.

    Hopefully they will make a vanilla server (legacy) i think its extremely likely now as this new expac will do worst than WOD.
    Its only way they will get me and my community and friends to play wow again

    ps this isnt a angry rant , i subbed to try the changes and i didnt like it half expected it  im not that bothered about it just disappointed :dizzy:


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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    What they've done to classes is a massive change.. people don't like change. The classes do make more sense now and have a clear identity... even each spec is extremely unique now and they hardly share any skills at all. Personally, I like it. Less to press, just as many situational skills required and more diversity.

    Ret Paladins need a better gap closer for PvP though.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 3,021
    observer said:
    Just when i thought die-hard Blizzard haters didn't exist anymore, this thread proved me wrong.
    Even after 12 years, some of you still can't be objective with WoW.  It's really sad.
    Fixed.
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