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Website/Store fiasco continues- Dev tells fans that criticizing them does not help...

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  • slagathoreslagathore Member UncommonPosts: 31
    Nilden said:
    Not exactly inspiring a boat load of confidence if the team making a MMORPG has trouble with a webpage.
    But yet they have people just waiting to throw more money at them. I can't understand how that can be.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Nilden said:
    Not exactly inspiring a boat load of confidence if the team making a MMORPG has trouble with a webpage.
    But yet they have people just waiting to throw more money at them. I can't understand how that can be.
    obviously because they are developing a product that people want to play.

    you don't have to understand it.
  • DrakenhoffDrakenhoff Member UncommonPosts: 301
    Gdemami said:
    Drakenhoff said:
    No its not.
    It is, you just twisted standard into every single one...fallacy on your end.
    I gave you reasons why that's not true. I know alot of people in high paid jobs and non work till midnight Friday and Saturday. 

    Signed Davan Drakenhoff ruler of Castle Drakenhoff the impenatrable castle made from cardboard

  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Gdemami said:
    Drakenhoff said:
    No its not.
    It is, you just twisted standard into every single one...fallacy on your end.
    I gave you reasons why that's not true. I know alot of people in high paid jobs and non work till midnight Friday and Saturday. 
    well it also depends on his definition of high paid.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    edited July 2016
    I gave you reasons why that's not true. I know alot of people in high paid jobs and non work till midnight Friday and Saturday. 
    You haven't provided any reasons at all.
    You provided examples.
    Your examples do not refute my claim.

    Just more and more fallacy on your end...
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,336
    The biggest issue I think a lot of people see when you miss deadlines is that since you missed this one you are going to miss the next one and then the next one.  That could be the case and it might not.  But the problem here is that the fans are what would have been the investors in a normal development, but they have no say like true investors do so they sit here and complain because there is literally nothing they can do about it.  If you are going to ask an average person to back you game you had better be ready to take the flak when you don't meet a goal that you yourself provided.  Its a faith issue on whether or not you will be able to go forward and complete the project when you stated it would be done.
  • garretthgarretth Member UncommonPosts: 343
    Chill, chill, chill.  Geez. 
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Gdemami said:
    I gave you reasons why that's not true. I know alot of people in high paid jobs and non work till midnight Friday and Saturday. 
    You haven't provided any reasons at all.
    You provided examples.
    Your examples do not refute my claim.

    Just more and more fallacy on your end...
    your statement is just as false.

    you have no basis to your claim, you said "any decently paid job" but where does that lie... what is your mark for a weekly wage to be considered decently paid.

    and you're assuming that the people who stayed back are over that threshold.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    k61977 said:
    The biggest issue I think a lot of people see when you miss deadlines is that since you missed this one you are going to miss the next one and then the next one.  That could be the case and it might not.  But the problem here is that the fans are what would have been the investors in a normal development, but they have no say like true investors do so they sit here and complain because there is literally nothing they can do about it.  If you are going to ask an average person to back you game you had better be ready to take the flak when you don't meet a goal that you yourself provided.  Its a faith issue on whether or not you will be able to go forward and complete the project when you stated it would be done.
    and so be it, they don't have a "hard" release date set, they have an expected time of delivery and with that comes room for change either sooner or after the date, if they said product launch was blah blah blah then they pushed it back even once, sure thats no good.. but it happens, but they don't even have a launch date yet, just a soft time frame around when they think they might have the game out.. so i mean they could realistically take an extra year if they wanted to, they arent bound to deliver by any date at this stage.

    it's the same as with star citizen i guess, things pushed back, things delayed etc... it's obviously more of a crowd funding issue than anything.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    mbrodie said:
    your statement is just as false.

    you have no basis to your claim, you said "any decently paid job" but where does that lie... what is your mark for a weekly wage to be considered decently paid.

    and you're assuming that the people who stayed back are over that threshold.
    Another fallacy.

    There is no threshold, it is a function.
  • TheCliffordTheClifford Member UncommonPosts: 18
    As a web developer, I'm not seeing anything out of the norm.  Just because you're a programmer, does NOT mean you can instantly draft a fully functional web application.  Unless you have experience with implementation testing, you are bound to beat your face against a wall.  The same thing happens when I dick around with 3D graphics programming.  Its not your wheelhouse, so debugging can be riotously aggravating.  This is a small team who cannot afford to have a specialist meet this milestone.  Taking a little longer is not a big deal at all.

    Having been in the situation of misquoting a deadline on something I wasn't particularly good at, the WORST thing in the world is people throwing negativity at you while you're trying to solve a problem.  Its just another form of tilt.  Sometimes the issue is so simple, but mounting pressure and unnecessarily negative interactions just tilt you into the mud.
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,336
    mbrodie said:
    k61977 said:
    The biggest issue I think a lot of people see when you miss deadlines is that since you missed this one you are going to miss the next one and then the next one.  That could be the case and it might not.  But the problem here is that the fans are what would have been the investors in a normal development, but they have no say like true investors do so they sit here and complain because there is literally nothing they can do about it.  If you are going to ask an average person to back you game you had better be ready to take the flak when you don't meet a goal that you yourself provided.  Its a faith issue on whether or not you will be able to go forward and complete the project when you stated it would be done.
    and so be it, they don't have a "hard" release date set, they have an expected time of delivery and with that comes room for change either sooner or after the date, if they said product launch was blah blah blah then they pushed it back even once, sure thats no good.. but it happens, but they don't even have a launch date yet, just a soft time frame around when they think they might have the game out.. so i mean they could realistically take an extra year if they wanted to, they arent bound to deliver by any date at this stage.

    it's the same as with star citizen i guess, things pushed back, things delayed etc... it's obviously more of a crowd funding issue than anything.
    That is kinda the point I was trying to make.  If you are going to do a crowd funded program don't give a single date at all.  It only upsets people that don't realize that deadlines are not going to be met on any average development cycle.  Things go wrong.  But as soon as you list a date at all that is what will stick with people.  Time frames are the killer of most projects in the real world, don't set your company up to fail by stating one whether it is what the OP is trying to call a soft time frame or not.
  • DrakenhoffDrakenhoff Member UncommonPosts: 301
    edited July 2016
    k61977 said:
    mbrodie said:
    k61977 said:
    The biggest issue I think a lot of people see when you miss deadlines is that since you missed this one you are going to miss the next one and then the next one.  That could be the case and it might not.  But the problem here is that the fans are what would have been the investors in a normal development, but they have no say like true investors do so they sit here and complain because there is literally nothing they can do about it.  If you are going to ask an average person to back you game you had better be ready to take the flak when you don't meet a goal that you yourself provided.  Its a faith issue on whether or not you will be able to go forward and complete the project when you stated it would be done.
    and so be it, they don't have a "hard" release date set, they have an expected time of delivery and with that comes room for change either sooner or after the date, if they said product launch was blah blah blah then they pushed it back even once, sure thats no good.. but it happens, but they don't even have a launch date yet, just a soft time frame around when they think they might have the game out.. so i mean they could realistically take an extra year if they wanted to, they arent bound to deliver by any date at this stage.

    it's the same as with star citizen i guess, things pushed back, things delayed etc... it's obviously more of a crowd funding issue than anything.
    That is kinda the point I was trying to make.  If you are going to do a crowd funded program don't give a single date at all.  It only upsets people that don't realize that deadlines are not going to be met on any average development cycle.  Things go wrong.  But as soon as you list a date at all that is what will stick with people.  Time frames are the killer of most projects in the real world, don't set your company up to fail by stating one whether it is what the OP is trying to call a soft time frame or not.
    I think they should have perfected everything in the background then just revealed it when up and running.

    But they are trying their hardest to be fully transparent and that means sticking their neck out.

    Signed Davan Drakenhoff ruler of Castle Drakenhoff the impenatrable castle made from cardboard

  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Gdemami said:
    mbrodie said:
    your statement is just as false.

    you have no basis to your claim, you said "any decently paid job" but where does that lie... what is your mark for a weekly wage to be considered decently paid.

    and you're assuming that the people who stayed back are over that threshold.
    Another fallacy.

    There is no threshold, it is a function.
    no of course there is a threshold of what you consider "good money" you just have no real argument here so you make crappy points.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    k61977 said:
    mbrodie said:
    k61977 said:
    The biggest issue I think a lot of people see when you miss deadlines is that since you missed this one you are going to miss the next one and then the next one.  That could be the case and it might not.  But the problem here is that the fans are what would have been the investors in a normal development, but they have no say like true investors do so they sit here and complain because there is literally nothing they can do about it.  If you are going to ask an average person to back you game you had better be ready to take the flak when you don't meet a goal that you yourself provided.  Its a faith issue on whether or not you will be able to go forward and complete the project when you stated it would be done.
    and so be it, they don't have a "hard" release date set, they have an expected time of delivery and with that comes room for change either sooner or after the date, if they said product launch was blah blah blah then they pushed it back even once, sure thats no good.. but it happens, but they don't even have a launch date yet, just a soft time frame around when they think they might have the game out.. so i mean they could realistically take an extra year if they wanted to, they arent bound to deliver by any date at this stage.

    it's the same as with star citizen i guess, things pushed back, things delayed etc... it's obviously more of a crowd funding issue than anything.
    That is kinda the point I was trying to make.  If you are going to do a crowd funded program don't give a single date at all.  It only upsets people that don't realize that deadlines are not going to be met on any average development cycle.  Things go wrong.  But as soon as you list a date at all that is what will stick with people.  Time frames are the killer of most projects in the real world, don't set your company up to fail by stating one whether it is what the OP is trying to call a soft time frame or not.
    see i agree with you 100% here, take blizzards approach "when it's ready" they don't really set release dates until they are 100% sure they can dliver, before that point it's "when it's ready"

    i guess this is a bit different they had a working website now it's not working... but even so, it will be fixed and any complaining about it not working seems to be just for the sake of calling them our or having something to complain about.

    the website upgrade here didn't go as planned, it's all good though.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    edited July 2016
    mbrodie said:
    no of course there is a threshold of what you consider "good money" you just have no real argument here so you make crappy points.
    Do you understand what function is...?

    Regardless...

    When you have a worker doing digging works, it is easy to price the labour - in t time you do n amount of work. You can then set the price based on either time or amount of work done, it is merely interchangable.

    However this does not work outside of manual labour well - knowledge workers. They solve problems, handle situations with lots of variables, they have the responsiblity, etc.. This makes pricing of their work much more difficult, "amount" of work becomes difficult to measure and pricing per hour is non-viable.

    They are paid for their job to be done regardless of hours, the results is what matters.

    Of course there are exceptions since expertise and responsibility of knowledge workers(leaving supply and demand aside for simplicity) aren't the only factors that are driving the salary up but those are mostly outliner cases - ie. stressfull or dangerous jobs.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Ok I am not going to make excuses for SBS as they have delayed their first release due to unforseen problems.

    But I have a question for all those "experts" and "moaners" here. How many of you would be willing to work till midnight on a Friday and Saturday to remedy a situation like this?
    During my career in IT I have several times worked 48, 72 even 100 hours at a stretch to fix faults, recover from disasters and even 'smoke incidents'. My experience is relatively commonplace.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Gdemami said:
    mbrodie said:
    no of course there is a threshold of what you consider "good money" you just have no real argument here so you make crappy points.
    Do you understand what function is...?

    Regardless...

    When you have a worker doing digging works, it is easy to price the labour - in t time you do n amount of work. You can then set the price based on either time or amount of work done, it is merely interchangable.

    However this does not work outside of manual labour well - knowledge workers. They solve problems, handle situations with lots of variables, they have the responsiblity, etc.. This makes pricing of their work much more difficult, "amount" of work becomes difficult to measure and pricing per hour is non-viable.

    They are paid for their job to be done regardless of hours, the results is what matters.

    Of course there are exceptions since expertise and responsibility of knowledge workers(leaving supply and demand aside for simplicity) aren't the only factors that are driving the salary up but those are mostly outliner cases - ie. stressfull or dangerous jobs.
    all the people working on this project would be salary / hourly pay based, so there is no variables, they will either get paid the same amount regardless of what hours they work, or they will get more based off an increased amount of hours... there is no variable in what tasks they do dictates how much they get paid.

    which makes your point about people getting paid good money being expected to work long hours every weekend irrelevant the amount they get paid has nothing todo with the contract terms they have or their obligation to their job or their dedication.

    There may have been no one telling them to stay back to try and fix it, they may have simply done it off their own merit. you're assuming an expectation is there, i own 2 businesses currently, i have managers running each one and they get paid a set amount per week regardless of hours, i do not expect them to work more then the hours that are designated to them, but out of their own will some nights they stay back to do things that could wait until the next day because they want to. BUT i do not hold any expectation that they work back.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    craftseeker said:
    During my career in IT I have several times worked 48, 72 even 100 hours at a stretch to fix faults, recover from disasters and even 'smoke incidents'. My experience is relatively commonplace.
    Yeah, IT is a perfect example.

    You are paid for things to work and hours spent in the office aren't a good reflection of that.
  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    Gdemami said:
    craftseeker said:
    During my career in IT I have several times worked 48, 72 even 100 hours at a stretch to fix faults, recover from disasters and even 'smoke incidents'. My experience is relatively commonplace.
    Yeah, IT is a perfect example.

    You are paid for things to work and hours spent in the office aren't a good reflection of that.
    sorry, but you cant flip flop around on arguments to try to validate your whole point. your whole original argument was based off "decently paid work" now you're changing your argument that it's "role based" which i have basically been trying to point out from the start. Not to mention i know several people who work in the IT field who do not make what i would consider to be good money.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    mbrodie said:
    i do not expect them to work more then the hours that are designated to them, but out of their own will some nights they stay back to do things that could wait until the next day because they want to.
    It has nothing to do with your expectations, it is what the job takes.

    Yet, you are not paying them any penny more for the hours they stay longer. You are only proving my point.


    Cool story tho...
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    edited July 2016
    mbrodie said:
    sorry, but you cant flip flop around on arguments to try to validate your whole point.
    I am not, the salary scales with "role".

    You just do not understand what function is...there are no thresholds.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,827
    Why does it sounds like a discussion about a certain development team became a gladiator arena?

    People, stop arguing about each other, follow the topic, please.

    Yes, they are fucking things up; Yes there are fanbois just waiting to throw money at the computer (just like that these garbage tactics of founders pack with stupid garbage games yet earning tons of moneys setting the quality standards bar lower and lower - thanks, champs) - Regardless it all: THIS IS BUSINESS.

    Is not common to a business to undergo bad project management. That's bad. Stop setting something mediocre as standard. Stop making half ass excuses because "they can't make a proper web application"... Isn't the hiring price of someone qualified in the amount required for the project in the first place? 

    That's the problem, either yes or no shows how badly they are handling it.

    Many Game Development Classes started to sprout here. Many Universities and so are trying to cash in on it, and you know what? 99% of kiddos who goes there (I lived in a house with 5 of them and I went there to check the classes - go online, talk to people - they actually are like that) thinks that making a game is fun and shiny and you'll click some buttons, make "brainstorm" (I always laugh at this one) and in some magic way, without any kind of Project Methodology (or maybe by throwing their parents money at script screen and modeling software) the game itself will become something real and something good.

    Skepticism <- Is great, use it everywhere, please. 

    If you eat garbage you are saying with your money that some dumb people on suits are right about throwing shit at their costumers. 
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; Genshin Impact

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    The issue here is not simply that they are "a little late"...

    The success of this entire project is based on the fact that they are going to utilize ready-made software solutions to dramatically speed up development AND hugely reduce the manpower needed to do that development.

    The first step on that road was to buy a ready-made web shop and implement it quickly and with minimum fuss. So far they have spectacularly failed to meet their own estimated deadline. Twice.

    What does that say about their plans to use similar methodologies to deliver this highly ambitious game design ?

  • mbrodiembrodie Member RarePosts: 1,498
    edited July 2016
    Gdemami said:
    mbrodie said:
    sorry, but you cant flip flop around on arguments to try to validate your whole point.
    I am not, the salary scales with "role".

    You just do not understand what function is...there are no thresholds.
    Actually i pay my managers what i consider fair, not what the standard in industry is based off award or anything.... to be honest my managers make $1400 a week which managers in other shops of the same business type make between 600 - 800, the difference is the value i place on them.

    salary doesn't always scale with role, i know plenty of people in same job positions earning vastly different amounts based off the companies they work for. it's all relative, so your function is meaningless.

    ALSO again there are thresholds based of what YOU as a person conisder "decent money" i'm not talking about anything else but your personal opinion, stop trying to attack my intelligence to prove your invalid argument.
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