What is your definition of Pay2Win?

lucyluffy101

Archeage is not p2w for me because you can get all the item at the end game without paying for real money. Those gear are crafted, drop from the dungeon and bosses. Archeage is pay to skip/progress for me.

My definition of pay2win is the item that can take more advantage and it's only available in the cash shop. The company force you to buy those items in the cash shop to  access the end game items or it can take more advantage that can only purchase for real money. The item that you can't find in the game and it's only available in the cash shop that take more advantage.

More mmo's you can't see the p2w in the beginning but after you play more month's or a year  at  the end game you can see the real p2w.

Share to me your definition of p2w.

rpmcmurphy

P2W has broken way beyond its literal definition in my opinion.
The only thing that concerns me are games that use a system where the time involved to earn something is beyond what most people would feel is reasonable. All too often people will defend cash shops by arguing that if you can earn it in game it is not P2W.

Gdemami

P2W = whiners

scribeofsalmacis

Yeah, basically so, but I'd say - for the sake of pragmatism - that P2W also stands for a product in which it is possible to get high-end gear fairly fast or even immediately by paying, yet it is not possible to get comparable gear in reasonable time, with a reasonable time investment, if you don't pay. Whatever people regard as a reasonable time investment before reaching end-game type of content. Six months, a year, a couple of years. Ten hours a week, twenty, whatever.

observer

P2W = paying to win competitively, which is usually in pvp.  Buying items that granted higher stats was the usual P2W scheme.

Gdemami

scribeofsalmacis said:

Yeah, basically so, but I'd say - for the sake of pragmatism - that P2W also stands for a product in which it is possible to get high-end gear fairly fast or even immediately by paying, yet it is not possible to get comparable gear in reasonable time, with a reasonable time investment, if you don't pay. Whatever people regard as a reasonable time investment before reaching end-game type of content. Six months, a year, a couple of years. Ten hours a week, twenty, whatever.

That is entirely pointless statement.

All sports, hobbies or w/e provide for different level of "investment" - in terms of time and money. Why should be MMOs different?


Whether you are spending money on new running shoes or virtual equipment is no different. Each will provide "competetive advantage" and it is all fine.

Gdemami

Robokapp said:
Can you present this level of investment in Chess?

Do you know chess coaches exist and they do not work for free?

Gyva02

P2W: Any sum of money big or small for any advantage big or small. 

observer

Gdemami said:

scribeofsalmacis said:

Yeah, basically so, but I'd say - for the sake of pragmatism - that P2W also stands for a product in which it is possible to get high-end gear fairly fast or even immediately by paying, yet it is not possible to get comparable gear in reasonable time, with a reasonable time investment, if you don't pay. Whatever people regard as a reasonable time investment before reaching end-game type of content. Six months, a year, a couple of years. Ten hours a week, twenty, whatever.

That is entirely pointless statement.

All sports, hobbies or w/e provide for different level of "investment" - in terms of time and money. Why should be MMOs different?


Whether you are spending money on new running shoes or virtual equipment is no different. Each will provide "competetive advantage" and it is all fine.

The issue isn't really about paying, it's about advantages.  Steroids offer advantages, but it's also an unfair advantage, and banned in sports.  The same can be applied to stats in mmos.  Think of them as steroids.

GrumpyHobbit

If you pay real money you can purchase a competitive advantage, usually in PvP. 

Skins, costumes, stuff you can obtain through playing longer...none of those types of things are P2W items.

Gdemami

observer said:
The issue isn't really about paying, it's about advantages.  Steroids offer advantages, but it's also an unfair advantage, and banned in sports.  The same can be applied to stats in mmos.  Think of them as steroids.

False.

Cash shops and stat affecting items are not "banned", they are not illegal.

If you wanted an equivalent to steroids then hacks, exploits and unapproved 3rd party apps would do.

scribeofsalmacis

Gdemami said:

scribeofsalmacis said:

Yeah, basically so, but I'd say - for the sake of pragmatism - that P2W also stands for a product in which it is possible to get high-end gear fairly fast or even immediately by paying, yet it is not possible to get comparable gear in reasonable time, with a reasonable time investment, if you don't pay. Whatever people regard as a reasonable time investment before reaching end-game type of content. Six months, a year, a couple of years. Ten hours a week, twenty, whatever.

That is entirely pointless statement.

All sports, hobbies or w/e provide for different level of "investment" - in terms of time and money. Why should be MMOs different?


Whether you are spending money on new running shoes or virtual equipment is no different. Each will provide "competetive advantage" and it is all fine.

If you take your time and look really carefully, you might notice that what I'm saying is that MMOs will and need to accommodate for different gamers (say, someone is unemployed, hooked or whatever, and capable of gaming 40 hours per week, another person is tied to work and kids, and plays 10 hours a week), yet it's a challenge to keep them so that no-one isn't given an unfair advantage in a competitive game.

You suggest that in sports there are no limitations what comes to equipment. If you think a bit and get familiar with professional sports, you may notice that there are fairly strong equipment and sponsorship policies in place in all the major international sports. Also team spending is often capped, more or less. In gaming, even in esports it's already more of an anarchy, starting with the rigs we play on. It all translates as unreliable comparison between the skill levels of the gamers. Against this background I find it very understandable that gamers often hope that game developers take this reality into account, and provide entertainment that makes it possible to challenge other people on a fairly equal basis. My guess is that this is also why any serious PvP guilds shun P2W products. It comes down to respect, honour, glory, not only vulgar capitalism. Yet sometimes those perceived respect, honour and glory may translate into a gaming community that also draws in sponsors.

You got you value hierarchy wrong in your proposed MMO philosophy.

Gdemami

scribeofsalmacis said:
You suggest that in sports there are no limitations what comes to equipment.

That is not what I am saying at all.

I am only saying, that even in sports equipment and money does make a difference and it is perfectly fine thus there is no reason why MMOs should be treated differently.

observer

Gdemami said:

observer said:
The issue isn't really about paying, it's about advantages.  Steroids offer advantages, but it's also an unfair advantage, and banned in sports.  The same can be applied to stats in mmos.  Think of them as steroids.

False.

Cash shops and stat affecting items are not "banned", they are not illegal.

If you wanted an equivalent to steroids then hacks, exploits and unapproved 3rd party apps would do.

=====

Looks like a forum bug ate my post.  lol.

Anyway, i used a bad analogy, however, the developers set the rules and if the rules are so outrageous, people will stop participating.

There needs to be a balance, otherwise the competition narrows down, and those with the most wealth will win against those with skills.

Deivos

Gdemami said:

scribeofsalmacis said:
You suggest that in sports there are no limitations what comes to equipment.

That is not what I am saying at all.

I am only saying, that even in sports equipment and money does make a difference and it is perfectly fine thus there is no reason why MMOs should be treated differently.

Actually in sports there is a constant back and forth on equipment (as scribe even pointed out about sponsorship caps and team cost caps). For example in the 2012 olympics, Speedo's new swimsuits at the time were banned because they offered advantage over the competitors beyond that of the swimmer's skill, and were not an even distributed piece of equipment.

Maxarius

Using the sports analogy...

Buy-to-Play / Subscription: You buy a new pair of running shoes each season.

Optional but fair Cash Shop: You buy a matching tank-top and shorts with a stylish pattern.

Pay-to-Win: You pay the race official to let you do the 400 meter sprint in a pair of roller blades.

Gdemami

observer said:
 if the rules are so outrageous, people will stop participating.

There needs to be a balance, otherwise the competition narrows down, and those with the most wealth will win against those with skills.

That is grossly unsubstantial, almost false imo.

Any evidence for that?


We can already see in MMO that PVP can be largely affected by gear and levels and people does not seem to have much issue with that, I would even say they ask for same progression like PVE minded folks.

Just for the reminder old video:



When you look at it more objectively, you will see that there will be natural hierarchy created:

- people with skills and money on top
- mix of people with either skill and no money or money and no skill
- people with no skill and no money

Nothing wrong with that, like I said before, we see similar, or even the same, structure in sports.

Deivos

So you reference the business model of a game that closed a year ago because it's business model failed, and think using said model is a good idea?

In sports we can see this list of yours;

"- people with skills and money on top
- mix of people with either skill and no money or money and no skill
- people with no skill and no money"

almost entirely curtailed by the practices they have established over time to ensure fair play and sportsmanship. Sports teams get sponsorship and budgets for a reason, and individual players on professional teams do not buy their own gear, but are instead are issued it either via the team using a spending budget to obtain gear, or having contracts with businesses that issues the team gear.

How much money a player makes as per their contract is personal income and outside the scope or impact on the sport during play, save for how much that individual is costing the team to keep on the roster.

That's why you don't see the young poor football players out on the field in some thrift store stuff, they wear the exact same equipment the rest of the team does, and they train with the same equipment as the rest of the team (excusing external-solo training done outside of team scheduling).

The standards exercised in order to maintain fair play in sports is quite broad. Considerably more so than you are giving credence to.

Not to mention this line of yours;

"We can already see in MMO that PVP can be largely affected by gear and levels and people does not seem to have much issue with that"

...That get refuted as easily as clicking onto the Recent Discussions page and clicking into any PvP thread to see the majority of complaints popping up about the "disparity" caused in OWPvP versus structured lobby PvP (not that I entirely agree with the arguments made, but the fact that is the focus of much of the complaints is the point here). 

Kyleran

Deivos said:

Gdemami said:

scribeofsalmacis said:
You suggest that in sports there are no limitations what comes to equipment.

That is not what I am saying at all.

I am only saying, that even in sports equipment and money does make a difference and it is perfectly fine thus there is no reason why MMOs should be treated differently.

Actually in sports there is a constant back and forth on equipment (as scribe even pointed out about sponsorship caps and team cost caps). For example in the 2012 olympics, Speedo's new swimsuits at the time were banned because they offered advantage over the competitors beyond that of the swimmer's skill, and were not an even distributed piece of equipment.

Think of MMORPG PVP more as warfare rather than team sports and you'll understand why it doesn't need to be fair and balanced like a team sport in terms of gear or numbers.

But staying in the sports realm, activities which involve racing such as automobiles, yacht racing or motorcross permit more disparity in gear between competitors than more human based challenges.

Think of MMOs more like the 2nd group and p2w arguments become less compelling.

MadFrenchie

Gdemami said:

Whether you are spending money on new running shoes or virtual equipment is no different. Each will provide "competetive advantage" and it is all fine.

Until Adidas starts selling "Running Shoes of Speed +5," this analogy is inaccurate.

Xatsh

P2W = if any one player can spend RL money and gain an advantage over someone buying just the sub free.

In Archeage. Patron status is not P2W, everything in the cash shop that is not pure vanity is P2W, even if it is obtainable in game or something ingame is better but harder to obtain.

In AA for example if you have unlimited money to spend you can get to endgame faster, level crafts faster, be better in pvp faster, and such. SO that person is at an advantage of someone else who started with them who only pays for patron status. That person is thus paying to win the at the game because even though it might ballance out years down the road... that person who gave trion thier bank account more or less is at a massive advantage.

For all mmos, it only not p2w if everyones is equal. Meaning those who spend $0 on the cash shop = those who spend $500 / month in terms of ability, progression, and ability to play the game. Aka Pure vanity gear, pets, and mounts which are equal to those obtain ingame (Aka you can buy a mount but it is only as good as your non-cashshop mount and you cannot use cash shop mount until you have an ingame mount).

GeezerGamer

In any given game, are the top dogs the ones who played hard to get there or the ones who paid hard to get there? If you have examples of a fair amount of those who played hard but didn't spend much, I'd say the game is not P2W, otherwise, have fun BEING game's farming content.

Deivos

Kyleran said:

Deivos said:

Gdemami said:

scribeofsalmacis said:
You suggest that in sports there are no limitations what comes to equipment.

That is not what I am saying at all.

I am only saying, that even in sports equipment and money does make a difference and it is perfectly fine thus there is no reason why MMOs should be treated differently.

Actually in sports there is a constant back and forth on equipment (as scribe even pointed out about sponsorship caps and team cost caps). For example in the 2012 olympics, Speedo's new swimsuits at the time were banned because they offered advantage over the competitors beyond that of the swimmer's skill, and were not an even distributed piece of equipment.

Think of MMORPG PVP more as warfare rather than team sports and you'll understand why it doesn't need to be fair and balanced like a team sport in terms of gear or numbers.

But staying in the sports realm, activities which involve racing such as automobiles, yacht racing or motorcross permit more disparity in gear between competitors than more human based challenges.

Think of MMOs more like the 2nd group and p2w arguments become less compelling.

Not really, in most professional racing sports there is mandates about the vehicles and components used to keep the disparity to a minimum. In the lower tiers and non-professional sphere is where you see vehicles differ (there is even such tiers when it comes to rally cars).

If you regard the PvP as wartime logic in that "take any advantage you can" then balance is thrown out the window, and so to is any concept of fun for a good majority of players as a small group view for the most clear technical dominance (thus ruining any semblance of skill-based gameplay).

I do agree, however, that PvP and MMOs in general to nod have any inherent necessity for "fair play". Even when you talk about lobby games where player count is low and semantically even numbered teams, you still have the propensity for players to "zerg" or group up in order to break the skill challenge of taking an opponent, objective, lane, or otherwise through numbers instead.

Trying to entirely remove that element from play is just as damaging as having no controls either, and it is instead a matter of identifying where an optimal balance is between player skill and statistical advantages rests.

Gdemami

Kyleran said:
Think of MMORPG PVP more as warfare rather than team sports and you'll understand why it doesn't need to be fair and balanced like a team sport in terms of gear or numbers.

There is no such thing as "fair and balanced" team sports, that is why there are ladders and leagues - higher you go, more skil and money you have to compete against.

All sports are a "warfare" - competitors will do anything, that isn't forbidden, to win. They will go after any advantage they can get and that always involve money.

Just because it takes less money to compete at top level or even compete at all - high minimal entry cost, does not make it any more "fair and balanced".

Whole "P2W" concept is just absurd and silly.

Deivos

Wow you really dislike sportsmanship.

observer

Gdemami said:

Kyleran said:
Think of MMORPG PVP more as warfare rather than team sports and you'll understand why it doesn't need to be fair and balanced like a team sport in terms of gear or numbers.

There is no such thing as "fair and balanced" team sports, that is why there are ladders and leagues - higher you go, more skil and money you have to compete against.

All sports are a "warfare" - competitors will do anything, that isn't forbidden, to win. They will go after any advantage they can get and that always involve money.

Just because it takes less money to compete at top level or even compete at all - high minimal entry cost, does not make it any more "fair and balanced".

Whole "P2W" concept is just absurd and silly.

How is it absurd and silly when you just validated it?
You just said, "They will go after any advantage they can get and that always involve money".
That's called paying for advantages, to win against your opponents.
So yes, it's P2W.