It sounds to me like there's a need for a glossary in these forums. It would help, but I find it doubtful that anyone would even agree on the definitions.
I have to agree I see nothing negative in the idea of being nostalgic, nor in the definition of nostalgia. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations.
"I was overcome with acute nostalgia for my days in college"
On these forums I often see comments, which set out the positive attributes of older games, dismissed as nostalgia. Yes, often people look back at their first experiences through rose-tinted glasses, and wish they could repeat them. But often people are simple expressing a preference for something that just so happens not to be the mainstay of current game design.
[mod edit]
However, not every preference for something old is nostalgia, and here is an example of preference: - I have always enjoyed a lager, since I first discovered alcohol with a pint of aforesaid lager, and I still enjoy a lager. If someone gives me a glass of wine, I am likely to push it to one side and drink a lager instead. That emphatically is not nostalgia, it is my preference for a lager. I am sure no-one in their right mind would argue otherwise. However, I cannot help but feel if i were to replace "lager" with "attribute I enjoyed in one of my first gaming experiences", and "wine" with "attribute I don't enjoy in my more recent gaming experiences" on these forums, it would be dismissed as nostalgia.
Thoughts?
What do you want to discuss here? Politics or games? Pick one because if we talk politics, it will be far elss fun, so I will discuss games.
Let me answer your...complaint I guess is the best way to put it.
SWG was thus far my all time favorite MMORPG. Having said that, what I liked was:
Crafting: It had a deep and involved crafting system that I have yet to see replicated. Con: It had bugs for day's..
Gathering, again a very deep system that required you to actually search for your resources and was involved and fun. Cons: it had bugs.
Questing - I loved the quest hubs or min-theme parks you could do. I also loved the open world just hunting and exploring, to me this was a very well done system in this game and again I have yet to see it replicated well anywhere else. Not that I am all knowing, but if someone can show me where it has been I am happy to see it. Cons - there were lots of bugs, and some serious balance issues.
PvP - I liked the pvp my favorite part was that I could opt out if I wanted, and it tied different classes together with crafting to make it all relevant. Sadly, there were balance issue's, and the ever present bugs.
I loved the community IN SWG, it was great! Sadly the community the hung around the forums and cried all day about how hard things were took us by surprise. Cons: forum warriors.
Those are my opinions and in fact what I did and not not like about the game. I often however reminisce of the game and I get nostalgic about events that took place inside the game, people I knew, things we did and memories I made. I do not however, remember those times without remembering just how frustrating ti was dealing with broken mechanics, systems, and bugs.
At the end of the day I do not think people let the so called nostalgia and rose colored glasses taint their memories, I feel like people just remember things differently as they tend to have different priorities. I have spoken with many fans of SWG and I have never heard one of them argue when the topic of what a bug filled mess it was and how they should have stopped adding content and just did bug stomping.
I am speaking pre-NGE here as a reference to the time frame.
This answer is more in reference to what @DKLond said in his/her first response as...see below.
So my thoughts are; This is a very thin topic based off what I bet is someone disagreeing with you.
Post edited by Vaross on
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
On these forums I often see comments, which set out the positive attributes of older games, dismissed as nostalgia. Yes, often people look back at their first experiences through rose-tinted glasses, and wish they could repeat them. But often people are simple expressing a preference for something that just so happens not to be the mainstay of current game design.
[mod edit]
However, not every preference for something old is nostalgia, and here is an example of preference: - I have always enjoyed a lager, since I first discovered alcohol with a pint of aforesaid lager, and I still enjoy a lager. If someone gives me a glass of wine, I am likely to push it to one side and drink a lager instead. That emphatically is not nostalgia, it is my preference for a lager. I am sure no-one in their right mind would argue otherwise. However, I cannot help but feel if i were to replace "lager" with "attribute I enjoyed in one of my first gaming experiences", and "wine" with "attribute I don't enjoy in my more recent gaming experiences" on these forums, it would be dismissed as nostalgia.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.
As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.
So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.
Another thing about nostalgia is that it's a subtle and complex emotion. You can't easily dissect it - and it's very hard to separate nostalgic warmth with "timeless" appreciation for something.
Personally, I tend to believe the majority who want "old-school" designs- don't actually understand the precise nature of what they're after. They simply don't know themselves and their preferences to a sufficiently detailed extent.
If I'm wrong, then they're certainly not very good at articulating precisely what it is that they want.
The two most recent and prevalent examples of this would be Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers. I've yet to see a single convincing argument from the "pro" camp that would make me believe these are anything but serious cases of rose-colored glasses.
I agree that most who claim to want older games probably don't; my demographic is a small fraction these days, and i suspect some younguns' have hopped aboard the hype wagon.
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
I'm not quite sure what post you're referring to, was it the one about SWG by Hatfeull?
If so I'm not sure how that relates to either Pantheon or WOW vanilla players wants or desires. SWG was a unique title as far as MMORPGs go, it's easy to put into words what one would miss about that game. It's unique features are easily explained
That isn't exactly the case for titles like EQ, vanilla WOW, or other similar games where features have been pulled from for years, outside of saying they were "more challenging or worldly, back in the day".. Which is what most discussion devolves to in regard to those titles. And by extension Pantheon...
It also doesn't help that much of what people discuss about such games and their differences, is the emotions a game promotes, danger, discovery, etc.. these aren't game features...
I can certainly see what DK means about specifics.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't usually get hit with the "that's just nostalgia" dismissal, but I get a parallel one "that's just pie in the sky" whenever I talk about my preference for a kind of game that exists only on paper (so far). The reason why people say this to me is because they don't imagine that my described kind of game would be fun. This could be because it has one or more elements they dislike or see as being "counter to the essence of MMOs" (whatever that is) or it could be because they don't have the capacity to imagine a type of game they haven't played, or both. A third possibility is that some people are philosophically opposed to imagining desirable things that aren't currently obtainable - that's not a common mindset where I live, but in novels I occasionally see a person scold another for imagining something too impractical or unrealistic.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Another thing on 'older games'. Totally a moving target. Those games were under constant adjustment, and one person's favorite era may be very different from another's, in the same game. UO's staff were constantly changing things as exploits and unintended behaviors cropped up. If you read through Koster's history of SWG, you realize how many decisions were difficult, done poorly under time pressure, and considered mistaken by the designers. Yet sometimes those things are mentioned as high points by players.
All games are abstractions, and there are trade offs for every decision. The gestalt remembrance of the joy of playing them may skip some of the problems. And as always, any game style can do well if it matches the expenses of its development with the size of the user base (and subsequent profits).
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.
As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.
So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.
Another thing about nostalgia is that it's a subtle and complex emotion. You can't easily dissect it - and it's very hard to separate nostalgic warmth with "timeless" appreciation for something.
Personally, I tend to believe the majority who want "old-school" designs- don't actually understand the precise nature of what they're after. They simply don't know themselves and their preferences to a sufficiently detailed extent.
If I'm wrong, then they're certainly not very good at articulating precisely what it is that they want.
The two most recent and prevalent examples of this would be Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers. I've yet to see a single convincing argument from the "pro" camp that would make me believe these are anything but serious cases of rose-colored glasses.
I agree that most who claim to want older games probably don't; my demographic is a small fraction these days, and i suspect some younguns' have hopped aboard the hype wagon.
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
I don't know what you mean by "alleged" lack of exposure? That implies knowledge on your part that you can't have. As such, I can't take it seriously.
All I can say is that I'm a regular reader and participant around here - and I've been a part of many threads both here and in other forums where people are claiming to want to play WoW vanilla and games like Pantheon on a long-term basis.
What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that's true for the majority.
But I concede there will always be a tiny, tiny minority who're actually not interested in going forward with the evolution of games. People who think everything that has happened in the past 12-15 years doesn't amount to anything that can match those games.
That said, my point is that people often don't understand their own long-term preferences. That's a very bold and arrogant claim, for sure. I don't consider myself arrogant, though. To me, we're all equal and I have no way of establishing value or anything like that for myself.
All I can say is that my experience with human beings tells me they're not actually interested in playing these games long-term.
In that same way, I don't think people really think movies like Expendables is as great as the average 80s action movie was to a teenager back then. People tend to underestimate what it means to be young and impressionable - and they tend to overestimate the entertainment value of much that they experienced and enjoyed from their youth - or from many years ago when games like EQ and WoW were still fresh for them.
There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.
As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.
So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.
Another thing about nostalgia is that it's a subtle and complex emotion. You can't easily dissect it - and it's very hard to separate nostalgic warmth with "timeless" appreciation for something.
Personally, I tend to believe the majority who want "old-school" designs- don't actually understand the precise nature of what they're after. They simply don't know themselves and their preferences to a sufficiently detailed extent.
If I'm wrong, then they're certainly not very good at articulating precisely what it is that they want.
The two most recent and prevalent examples of this would be Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers. I've yet to see a single convincing argument from the "pro" camp that would make me believe these are anything but serious cases of rose-colored glasses.
I agree that most who claim to want older games probably don't; my demographic is a small fraction these days, and i suspect some younguns' have hopped aboard the hype wagon.
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
I don't know what you mean by "alleged" lack of exposure? That implies knowledge on your part that you can't have. As such, I can't take it seriously.
All I can say is that I'm a regular reader and participant around here - and I've been a part of many threads both here and in other forums where people are claiming to want to play WoW vanilla and games like Pantheon on a long-term basis.
What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that's true for the majority.
But I concede there will always be a tiny, tiny minority who're actually not interested in going forward with the evolution of games. People who think everything that has happened in the past 12-15 years doesn't amount to anything that can match those games.
That said, my point is that people often don't understand their own long-term preferences. That's a very bold and arrogant claim, for sure. I don't consider myself arrogant, though. To me, we're all equal and I have no way of establishing value or anything like that for myself.
All I can say is that my experience with human beings tells me they're not actually interested in playing these games long-term.
In that same way, I don't think people really think movies like Expendables is as great as the average 80s action movie was to a teenager back then. People tend to underestimate what it means to be young and impressionable - and they tend to overestimate the entertainment value of much that they experienced and enjoyed from their youth - or from many years ago when games like EQ and WoW were still fresh for them.
Short term enjoyment, though? Sure.
There's a long running DAOC private server that's in beta this summer in preparation for a relaunch.
They've been on a 2 year hiatus where they took it down in order to rebuild it to be more authentic and give them the ability to pinpoint the ruleset to just shortly after SI launch.
These folks and those of us who will play it do so because we clearly believe this was the best era of the game. I played it over a year last time (as I had just discovered it) and wasn't happy with the redesign, but they couldn't get to SI without the rebuild apparently.
The audience for such gameplay might not be quite as small as you believe, I'll be there this fall with about 10 friends, will finally tear me away from EVE for a bit.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We're discussing the weight of Trend here, rather than individual cases. We "brush it off" as nostalgia because age is obviously, demonstrably, a strong correlation to Game Design Conservatism.
I have an incredible fondness for arcade-style games. My son has almost never experienced one, and thus does not. Pretty sure he can't imagine standing in line and clutching a handful of warm quarters waiting for a chance at Asteroids.
He stares at his cell phone virtually all day. I make a phone call on mine, once in a while.
We grew up in different eras. Which tends to affect our preferences.
Surprise! Game players who grew up during different "eras" of game development have different preferences too! Shocking!
There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.
As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.
So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.
Another thing about nostalgia is that it's a subtle and complex emotion. You can't easily dissect it - and it's very hard to separate nostalgic warmth with "timeless" appreciation for something.
Personally, I tend to believe the majority who want "old-school" designs- don't actually understand the precise nature of what they're after. They simply don't know themselves and their preferences to a sufficiently detailed extent.
If I'm wrong, then they're certainly not very good at articulating precisely what it is that they want.
The two most recent and prevalent examples of this would be Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers. I've yet to see a single convincing argument from the "pro" camp that would make me believe these are anything but serious cases of rose-colored glasses.
I agree that most who claim to want older games probably don't; my demographic is a small fraction these days, and i suspect some younguns' have hopped aboard the hype wagon.
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
I don't know what you mean by "alleged" lack of exposure? That implies knowledge on your part that you can't have. As such, I can't take it seriously.
All I can say is that I'm a regular reader and participant around here - and I've been a part of many threads both here and in other forums where people are claiming to want to play WoW vanilla and games like Pantheon on a long-term basis.
What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that's true for the majority.
But I concede there will always be a tiny, tiny minority who're actually not interested in going forward with the evolution of games. People who think everything that has happened in the past 12-15 years doesn't amount to anything that can match those games.
That said, my point is that people often don't understand their own long-term preferences. That's a very bold and arrogant claim, for sure. I don't consider myself arrogant, though. To me, we're all equal and I have no way of establishing value or anything like that for myself.
All I can say is that my experience with human beings tells me they're not actually interested in playing these games long-term.
In that same way, I don't think people really think movies like Expendables is as great as the average 80s action movie was to a teenager back then. People tend to underestimate what it means to be young and impressionable - and they tend to overestimate the entertainment value of much that they experienced and enjoyed from their youth - or from many years ago when games like EQ and WoW were still fresh for them.
Short term enjoyment, though? Sure.
There's a long running DAOC private server that's in beta this summer in preparation for a relaunch.
They've been on a 2 year hiatus where they took it down in order to rebuild it to be more authentic and give them the ability to pinpoint the ruleset to just shortly after SI launch.
These folks and those of us who will play it do so because we clearly believe this was the best era of the game. I played it over a year last time (as I had just discovered it) and wasn't happy with the redesign, but they couldn't get to SI without the rebuild apparently.
The audience for such gameplay might not be quite as small as you believe, I'll be there this fall with about 10 friends, will finally tear me away from EVE for a bit.
Well, we're in the fortunate position of debating something we'll actually be able to see for ourselves in the future.
So, instead of talking about it now - let's just see how popular Pantheon is after a year or two?
I'm quite curious myself.
Also, I'm sure you wouldn't believe me - but I actually WANT people to be happy, and if it's true that a significant amount of people REALLY want to play something like Pantheon for years - then I think that's great. I'll gladly admit I've been wrong in that case.
If they have a playerbase of more than 100K regular players 1-2 years after release - I promise I'll be right here eating my words in public.
The way I differentiate is this: - Still enjoying the old game (private servers, many times), then notnostalgia. - Haven't played/Unable to play the old game in decades, nostalgia.
We probably also need to establish what it means to enjoy something. If logging on to a private server and playing for an hour a couple of times pr. month for a few years means you're enjoying it in a long-term fashion, then obviously my point won't hold.
I don't have any established number for what I would accept as "true" enjoyment - but obviously it would mean significant and regular playtime over the course of X months.
Surprise! Game players who grew up during different "eras" of game development have different preferences too! Shocking!
Well, I started playing games in 1982 - and I'm about as passionate and "hardcore" as you can get when it comes to gaming - and yet I greatly appreciate many of the modern paradigms.
In fact, I'd say several of my all time favorite games have been released in the past 10 years. WoW is definitely higher on the list than EQ/Vanguard/EvE - for instance.
But Mechwarrior doesn't have an emulation server. MPBT was gone before AOL was.
If it did, and I nostalgically signed up for it, my nostalgia suddenly becomes...not?
Signing up != playing long-term.
No one is denying the power of nostalgia.
It's the same with C64 or Amiga emulators. We, as geeks, love those things - but how many hours do we REALLY spend playing these games?
Well...zero because those weren't MMORPGs.
Just as my introduction to computers basically eradicated my interest on board games (no more struggle to find others to play with) MMORPGs extinguished my interest in single player games. (I could easily find other players to game with)
Hence my displeasure that modern MMORPGS have devolved into largely single player experiences.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But Mechwarrior doesn't have an emulation server. MPBT was gone before AOL was.
If it did, and I nostalgically signed up for it, my nostalgia suddenly becomes...not?
Signing up != playing long-term.
No one is denying the power of nostalgia.
It's the same with C64 or Amiga emulators. We, as geeks, love those things - but how many hours do we REALLY spend playing these games?
Well...zero because those weren't MMORPGs.
Just as my introduction to computers basically eradicated my interest on board games (no more struggle to find others to play with) MMORPGs extinguished my interest in single player games. (I could easily find other players to game with)
Hence my displeasure that modern MMORPGS have devolved into largely single player experiences.
I have no problem with optional multiplayer. In fact, I hate being forced to group if I'm not in the mood for it.
The vast majority of modern MMOs have great group-centric content - it's just optional.
I apologize in advance as this will sound harsh, but after years and years of this shite I've grown weary of these naval gazing, somewhat accusatory, not to mention pointless, tail chasing debates, over what boils down to nothing better than "My Dad's opinion can kick your Dad's opinions ass."
Here goes, hunker down. If you don't wish to listen to the angry rantings of a world weary old curmudgeon, look away now.
Oh fuck! This shit again. How the fuck can you or I quantify how much something means to some other person? For some individual SWG might just actually be the best damn MMO they ever played. That's simply their opinion. It doesn't mean that feeling should be embraced by everyone. It also doesn't mean any of us have a right to sit in sneering judgement on those people, claiming they must have a screw lose if we happen to not agree with them, when they think our favorite game of choice sucks donkey bollocks. Every individuals life experiences are unique. What matters to one person can and will be quite different to what matters to another. Fucking deal with that idea and move on with your fucking lives. Stop looking for universal truth or meaning where none can exist. People like what they like, and dislike what they dislike. Its not up to the rest of us to decide, sit in judgement over, or try justify/disprove those opinions for others. Its also not up to the rest of us to go out and piss all over someone elses good time just because we feel bored, pissed off, or disenfranchised.
Also, of the one place on the internet I felt it was probably safe to venture without being subjected to more angry shrill hysteria over the fucking Brexit, I thought it would be here. Thanks ever so much for fucking that up as well.
You seem to be projecting quite a lot here.
I don't think anyone is denying there are people who enjoy certain things that may or may not be considered nostalgic indulgences.
I think the debate largely revolves around the AMOUNT of people who genuinely want to play these old fashioned games for an extended period of time.
If you think the debate exists because people want to sneer or belittle others - that's on you. I don't think that's the general motivation - on either side. But there are certainly people on both sides who're quick to judge. Hardly a surprise, is it? That's the case with almost any debate around here and everywhere else online.
To me, the power of nostalgia is simply a psychological curiosity - and I'm not at all convinced people want what they seem to think they want - long term.
But Mechwarrior doesn't have an emulation server. MPBT was gone before AOL was.
If it did, and I nostalgically signed up for it, my nostalgia suddenly becomes...not?
Signing up != playing long-term.
No one is denying the power of nostalgia.
It's the same with C64 or Amiga emulators. We, as geeks, love those things - but how many hours do we REALLY spend playing these games?
Well...zero because those weren't MMORPGs.
Just as my introduction to computers basically eradicated my interest on board games (no more struggle to find others to play with) MMORPGs extinguished my interest in single player games. (I could easily find other players to game with)
Hence my displeasure that modern MMORPGS have devolved into largely single player experiences.
I have no problem with optional multiplayer. In fact, I hate being forced to group if I'm not in the mood for it.
The vast majority of modern MMOs have great group-centric content - it's just optional.
I'd like to see a little more dependency between players and a bit less optional.
You aren't being honest if you can't admit most MMOs are largely solo experiences.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are two things that are linked. Most people look for the their old game but would need significant improvements to enjoy the new game. The other part is that people that could enjoy a recreation of their old game think that all others would still enjoy that recreation without significant improvements.
Even though I still like most of the genres I enjoyed in the past my preferences and demands change with the games I play. I can enjoy the rare old game but that enjoyment mostly comes from appreciating something else than the gameplay. For me to enjoy a new game that is similar they have to improve the gameplay significantly.
If i reminisce of my earlier MUD and mmorpg very little has to do with gameplay. It was the excitement for the moment and its really hard to recreate those things in a new game. That's why so many recreations fall flat, nostalgia brings you to the game but once you play it for an extended amount of time the mediocre gameplay hits you.
The hardest part to understand is that 10-15 years ago you accepted flaws that you would never forgive today.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
But Mechwarrior doesn't have an emulation server. MPBT was gone before AOL was.
If it did, and I nostalgically signed up for it, my nostalgia suddenly becomes...not?
Signing up != playing long-term.
No one is denying the power of nostalgia.
It's the same with C64 or Amiga emulators. We, as geeks, love those things - but how many hours do we REALLY spend playing these games?
Well...zero because those weren't MMORPGs.
Just as my introduction to computers basically eradicated my interest on board games (no more struggle to find others to play with) MMORPGs extinguished my interest in single player games. (I could easily find other players to game with)
Hence my displeasure that modern MMORPGS have devolved into largely single player experiences.
I have no problem with optional multiplayer. In fact, I hate being forced to group if I'm not in the mood for it.
The vast majority of modern MMOs have great group-centric content - it's just optional.
I'd like to see a little more dependency between players and a bit less optional.
You aren't being honest if you can't admit most MMOs are largely solo experiences.
I don't agree at all that they're solo experiences. I think that's a complete fabrication.
But they've changed the multiplayer aspect from largely obligatory to largely optional. But that's something else entirely.
Personally, I don't EVER play an MMO unless I intend to share that experience. I've never been able to enjoy an MMO as an exclusively solo experience. The content and gameplay just can't compete with singleplayer games - and I happen to think that pretty much any game is enhanced if it's shared.
That said, I greatly appreciate being able to play alone and experience most of the game - because I'm often not in a social mood.
However, there are cases where the multiplayer gameplay suffers - and I could name games like ESO and Secret World as definite culprits. In those games, it seems the cooperative PvE multiplayer flow was almost an afterthought.
But, for the majority of modern MMOs - group gameplay is highly enjoyable and obviously a high priority for developers.
What I will agree with, however, is that MMOs have changed from "virtual worlds" full of player agency - to "content delivery devices" with little of the initial magic left.
Some of that is due to the change in design paradigms - and some of that is due to genre exhaustion.
To me, the power of nostalgia is simply a psychological curiosity - and I'm not at all convinced people want what they seem to think they want - long term.
...
Pot, meet kettle !
Let me see: 15 years ago, you didn't like the games that were available at that time. Since then, game design has changed, and the results nowadays are far more to your liking.
So now you're beginning to doubt whether ANYONE actually liked the games they played 15 years ago ? Because the majority nowadays don't like the "old-fashioned" game designs ? And if "everyone" prefers modern game designs, who actually liked the old designs ? Yeah, people must be lying to themselves...
To me, the power of nostalgia is simply a psychological curiosity - and I'm not at all convinced people want what they seem to think they want - long term.
...
Pot, meet kettle !
Let me see: 15 years ago, you didn't like the games that were available at that time. Since then, game design has changed, and the results nowadays are far more to your liking.
So now you're beginning to doubt whether ANYONE actually liked the games they played 15 years ago ? Because the majority nowadays don't like the "old-fashioned" game designs ? And if "everyone" prefers modern game designs, who actually liked the old designs ? Yeah, people must be lying to themselves...
You're very confused.
1. I loved a lot of games from 15+ years ago, including games like Ultima Online. I never cared much for EverQuest - but that's because I could see the grind from miles away.
2. No, I haven't said anything about people not liking games they played 15 years ago.
3. I never said everyone prefers modern game designs. I said only a tiny minority will be able to ignore the lack of modern advances.
I, personally, think that there are good things about the old design paradigms and there are good thing about the current paradigms. But I don't think you can create a great game simply by going back in time. You have to adapt to modern standards - at the very least.
However, if we're talking about what I would prefer - then we're talking about a real revolution that would take things WAY beyond both old and current design paradigms. But that's neither here nor there, I guess.
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something done or presented in order to evoke feelings of nostalgia. "an evening of TV nostalgia"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------All it means is wishing games were like they were then, nothing more. There's nothing wrong with that.
Being nostalgic, and viewing things through rose tinted goggles are two different things.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Let me answer your...complaint I guess is the best way to put it.
SWG was thus far my all time favorite MMORPG. Having said that, what I liked was:
Crafting: It had a deep and involved crafting system that I have yet to see replicated. Con: It had bugs for day's..
Gathering, again a very deep system that required you to actually search for your resources and was involved and fun. Cons: it had bugs.
Questing - I loved the quest hubs or min-theme parks you could do. I also loved the open world just hunting and exploring, to me this was a very well done system in this game and again I have yet to see it replicated well anywhere else. Not that I am all knowing, but if someone can show me where it has been I am happy to see it. Cons - there were lots of bugs, and some serious balance issues.
PvP - I liked the pvp my favorite part was that I could opt out if I wanted, and it tied different classes together with crafting to make it all relevant. Sadly, there were balance issue's, and the ever present bugs.
I loved the community IN SWG, it was great! Sadly the community the hung around the forums and cried all day about how hard things were took us by surprise. Cons: forum warriors.
Those are my opinions and in fact what I did and not not like about the game. I often however reminisce of the game and I get nostalgic about events that took place inside the game, people I knew, things we did and memories I made. I do not however, remember those times without remembering just how frustrating ti was dealing with broken mechanics, systems, and bugs.
At the end of the day I do not think people let the so called nostalgia and rose colored glasses taint their memories, I feel like people just remember things differently as they tend to have different priorities. I have spoken with many fans of SWG and I have never heard one of them argue when the topic of what a bug filled mess it was and how they should have stopped adding content and just did bug stomping.
I am speaking pre-NGE here as a reference to the time frame.
This answer is more in reference to what @DKLond said in his/her first response as...see below.
So my thoughts are; This is a very thin topic based off what I bet is someone disagreeing with you.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Doesn't automatically make it nostalgia.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
However, your alleged lack of exposure to the specifics about our preference for Pantheon and Vanilla WoW is purely your choice; they Could Not be more available, or more explicitly spelled out; see the post above mine.
If so I'm not sure how that relates to either Pantheon or WOW vanilla players wants or desires. SWG was a unique title as far as MMORPGs go, it's easy to put into words what one would miss about that game. It's unique features are easily explained
That isn't exactly the case for titles like EQ, vanilla WOW, or other similar games where features have been pulled from for years, outside of saying they were "more challenging or worldly, back in the day".. Which is what most discussion devolves to in regard to those titles. And by extension Pantheon...
It also doesn't help that much of what people discuss about such games and their differences, is the emotions a game promotes, danger, discovery, etc.. these aren't game features...
I can certainly see what DK means about specifics.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Another thing on 'older games'. Totally a moving target. Those games were under constant adjustment, and one person's favorite era may be very different from another's, in the same game. UO's staff were constantly changing things as exploits and unintended behaviors cropped up. If you read through Koster's history of SWG, you realize how many decisions were difficult, done poorly under time pressure, and considered mistaken by the designers. Yet sometimes those things are mentioned as high points by players.
All games are abstractions, and there are trade offs for every decision. The gestalt remembrance of the joy of playing them may skip some of the problems. And as always, any game style can do well if it matches the expenses of its development with the size of the user base (and subsequent profits).
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
All I can say is that I'm a regular reader and participant around here - and I've been a part of many threads both here and in other forums where people are claiming to want to play WoW vanilla and games like Pantheon on a long-term basis.
What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that's true for the majority.
But I concede there will always be a tiny, tiny minority who're actually not interested in going forward with the evolution of games. People who think everything that has happened in the past 12-15 years doesn't amount to anything that can match those games.
That said, my point is that people often don't understand their own long-term preferences. That's a very bold and arrogant claim, for sure. I don't consider myself arrogant, though. To me, we're all equal and I have no way of establishing value or anything like that for myself.
All I can say is that my experience with human beings tells me they're not actually interested in playing these games long-term.
In that same way, I don't think people really think movies like Expendables is as great as the average 80s action movie was to a teenager back then. People tend to underestimate what it means to be young and impressionable - and they tend to overestimate the entertainment value of much that they experienced and enjoyed from their youth - or from many years ago when games like EQ and WoW were still fresh for them.
Short term enjoyment, though? Sure.
They've been on a 2 year hiatus where they took it down in order to rebuild it to be more authentic and give them the ability to pinpoint the ruleset to just shortly after SI launch.
These folks and those of us who will play it do so because we clearly believe this was the best era of the game. I played it over a year last time (as I had just discovered it) and wasn't happy with the redesign, but they couldn't get to SI without the rebuild apparently.
The audience for such gameplay might not be quite as small as you believe, I'll be there this fall with about 10 friends, will finally tear me away from EVE for a bit.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We're discussing the weight of Trend here, rather than individual cases. We "brush it off" as nostalgia because age is obviously, demonstrably, a strong correlation to Game Design Conservatism.
I have an incredible fondness for arcade-style games. My son has almost never experienced one, and thus does not. Pretty sure he can't imagine standing in line and clutching a handful of warm quarters waiting for a chance at Asteroids.
He stares at his cell phone virtually all day. I make a phone call on mine, once in a while.
We grew up in different eras. Which tends to affect our preferences.
Surprise! Game players who grew up during different "eras" of game development have different preferences too! Shocking!
So, instead of talking about it now - let's just see how popular Pantheon is after a year or two?
I'm quite curious myself.
Also, I'm sure you wouldn't believe me - but I actually WANT people to be happy, and if it's true that a significant amount of people REALLY want to play something like Pantheon for years - then I think that's great. I'll gladly admit I've been wrong in that case.
If they have a playerbase of more than 100K regular players 1-2 years after release - I promise I'll be right here eating my words in public.
- Still enjoying the old game (private servers, many times), then not nostalgia.
- Haven't played/Unable to play the old game in decades, nostalgia.
VG
I don't have any established number for what I would accept as "true" enjoyment - but obviously it would mean significant and regular playtime over the course of X months.
If it did, and I nostalgically signed up for it, my nostalgia suddenly becomes...not?
No one is denying the power of nostalgia.
It's the same with C64 or Amiga emulators. We, as geeks, love those things - but how many hours do we REALLY spend playing these games?
In fact, I'd say several of my all time favorite games have been released in the past 10 years. WoW is definitely higher on the list than EQ/Vanguard/EvE - for instance.
Just as my introduction to computers basically eradicated my interest on board games (no more struggle to find others to play with) MMORPGs extinguished my interest in single player games. (I could easily find other players to game with)
Hence my displeasure that modern MMORPGS have devolved into largely single player experiences.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The vast majority of modern MMOs have great group-centric content - it's just optional.
I don't think anyone is denying there are people who enjoy certain things that may or may not be considered nostalgic indulgences.
I think the debate largely revolves around the AMOUNT of people who genuinely want to play these old fashioned games for an extended period of time.
If you think the debate exists because people want to sneer or belittle others - that's on you. I don't think that's the general motivation - on either side. But there are certainly people on both sides who're quick to judge. Hardly a surprise, is it? That's the case with almost any debate around here and everywhere else online.
To me, the power of nostalgia is simply a psychological curiosity - and I'm not at all convinced people want what they seem to think they want - long term.
Nothing more, nothing less.
You aren't being honest if you can't admit most MMOs are largely solo experiences.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Even though I still like most of the genres I enjoyed in the past my preferences and demands change with the games I play. I can enjoy the rare old game but that enjoyment mostly comes from appreciating something else than the gameplay. For me to enjoy a new game that is similar they have to improve the gameplay significantly.
If i reminisce of my earlier MUD and mmorpg very little has to do with gameplay. It was the excitement for the moment and its really hard to recreate those things in a new game. That's why so many recreations fall flat, nostalgia brings you to the game but once you play it for an extended amount of time the mediocre gameplay hits you.
The hardest part to understand is that 10-15 years ago you accepted flaws that you would never forgive today.
But they've changed the multiplayer aspect from largely obligatory to largely optional. But that's something else entirely.
Personally, I don't EVER play an MMO unless I intend to share that experience. I've never been able to enjoy an MMO as an exclusively solo experience. The content and gameplay just can't compete with singleplayer games - and I happen to think that pretty much any game is enhanced if it's shared.
That said, I greatly appreciate being able to play alone and experience most of the game - because I'm often not in a social mood.
However, there are cases where the multiplayer gameplay suffers - and I could name games like ESO and Secret World as definite culprits. In those games, it seems the cooperative PvE multiplayer flow was almost an afterthought.
But, for the majority of modern MMOs - group gameplay is highly enjoyable and obviously a high priority for developers.
What I will agree with, however, is that MMOs have changed from "virtual worlds" full of player agency - to "content delivery devices" with little of the initial magic left.
Some of that is due to the change in design paradigms - and some of that is due to genre exhaustion.
Let me see:
15 years ago, you didn't like the games that were available at that time.
Since then, game design has changed, and the results nowadays are far more to your liking.
So now you're beginning to doubt whether ANYONE actually liked the games they played 15 years ago ?
Because the majority nowadays don't like the "old-fashioned" game designs ?
And if "everyone" prefers modern game designs, who actually liked the old designs ?
Yeah, people must be lying to themselves...
1. I loved a lot of games from 15+ years ago, including games like Ultima Online. I never cared much for EverQuest - but that's because I could see the grind from miles away.
2. No, I haven't said anything about people not liking games they played 15 years ago.
3. I never said everyone prefers modern game designs. I said only a tiny minority will be able to ignore the lack of modern advances.
I, personally, think that there are good things about the old design paradigms and there are good thing about the current paradigms. But I don't think you can create a great game simply by going back in time. You have to adapt to modern standards - at the very least.
However, if we're talking about what I would prefer - then we're talking about a real revolution that would take things WAY beyond both old and current design paradigms. But that's neither here nor there, I guess.