Are we conflating preference and nostalgia?

fatears

On these forums I often see comments, which set out the positive attributes of older games, dismissed as nostalgia. Yes, often people look back at their first experiences through rose-tinted glasses, and wish they could repeat them. But often people are simple expressing a preference for something that just so happens not to be the mainstay of current game design. 

[mod edit]

However, not every preference for something old is nostalgia, and here is an example of preference: - I have always enjoyed a lager, since I first discovered alcohol with a pint of aforesaid lager, and I still enjoy a lager. If someone gives me a glass of wine, I am likely to push it to one side and drink a lager instead. That emphatically is not nostalgia, it is my preference for a lager. I am sure no-one in their right mind would argue otherwise. However, I cannot help but feel if i were to replace "lager" with "attribute I enjoyed in one of my first gaming experiences", and "wine" with "attribute I don't enjoy in my more recent gaming experiences" on these forums, it would be dismissed as nostalgia. 

Thoughts? 

DKLond

There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.

As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.

So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.

Another thing about nostalgia is that it's a subtle and complex emotion. You can't easily dissect it  - and it's very hard to separate nostalgic warmth with "timeless" appreciation for something.

Personally, I tend to believe the majority who want "old-school" designs- don't actually understand the precise nature of what they're after. They simply don't know themselves and their preferences to a sufficiently detailed extent.

If I'm wrong, then they're certainly not very good at articulating precisely what it is that they want.

The two most recent and prevalent examples of this would be Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers. I've yet to see a single convincing argument from the "pro" camp that would make me believe these are anything but serious cases of rose-colored glasses.

GeezerGamer

Yes, older games had issues. But the implemented solutions to those issues helped those specific issues and created whole new issues. Implementing QoL features in many ways only served as a trade off. Yeah, we can now get into dungeons without having to sit in a city and spam LFG messages for 3 hrs. But the same time it turned out MMOs into solo lobby games where players can solo side by side and never need to interact. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that you can say "It's only nostalgia" whenever someone brings up how it used to be good. But it doesn't matter. The overall experience offered by those games is gone. You can't get it.

Kyleran

I'd say your analogy is a bit off. Comparing wine to lager is more akin to comparing MOBAS to MMORPGs.

While items in both pairs have similarities to each other (alcohol, online games) each item in the pair are decidedly different.

It's difficult to find a good modern analogy where the earlier design contained features and complexities not found on the more streamlined successors. (which was done to increase the product's mass appeal)

But I will agree the term nostalgia is misused on these forums.  Clearly there are game mechanics that have changed or are no longer available as originally presented and if someone favors them they will be disappointed in modern games.

Where's my graph paper, dammit!

SpottyGekko

If a certain type of game design appeals to you, that is a matter of personal taste.

If popular game design changes, does that mean that you must change your personal tastes ?

It's common practice on these forums to try to invalidate someone else's opinions (and tastes) by ascribing them to "nostalgia". The implication is that you didn't really like those things you said you did, because you can't remember exactly what they were like anymore.

The person accusing you of nostalgia can remember that they didn't like game X ten years ago, so by implication "any sane person" could not have enjoyed the game back then either...

Gdemami

SpottyGekko said:

If popular game design changes, does that mean that you must change your personal tastes ?

No one says that your tase must change but it is how you deal with the game design changes.

Some people just cannot "let go", that is nostalgia - or better like I said, inability to accept changes.

Purutzil

Its a mix. People rely to much on nostalgia, but at the same time that nostalgia is built from element they did like (ignoring elements they didn't). Its why people dismissing the whole thing as nostalgia is a rather foolish thing, since it wouldn't be so fond in our minds if at least some parts of it was enjoyable. 

SpottyGekko

Gdemami said:

SpottyGekko said:

If popular game design changes, does that mean that you must change your personal tastes ?

No one says that your tase must change but it is how you deal with the game design changes.

Some people just cannot "let go", that is nostalgia - or better like I said, inability to accept changes.

If you don't change your personal tastes, how does that translate into "accepting the changes" ?

"Nostalgia" refers to an imperfect recollection of past events, where those events become more appealing due to selective memory (i.e. "rose-tinted glasses").

That has nothing to do with preferring a certain game design ethos that is no longer popular in "modern MMO's".

Gdemami

SpottyGekko said:
If you don't change your personal tastes, how does that translate into "accepting the changes" ?

"Nostalgia" refers to an imperfect recollection of past events, where those events become more appealing due to selective memory (i.e. "rose-tinted glasses").

That has nothing to do with preferring a certain game design ethos that is no longer popular in "modern MMO's".                       

That was the point, some people cannot accept the changes that differ from their own taste.

Like I said, it is more of inadaptability to changes rather than "nostalgia", although those two are not mutualy exclusive and likely go often hand in hand.

Loke666

When an older gamer point out that something was better in the past it mustn't be nostalgia, some things were better in the old days, others just seems so years later.

More then a few games were not so great as many vets think, or they would have been a lot larger then they actually were (even if large the year 2000 was everything over 250K while today it is at least a million players since more people play MMOs now then back in 2000). The mind is made so you forget a lot of the boring times, why keep brain capacity remembering being bored in a game 15 years ago?

But some things were better in the early games, far from everything but the early MMOs had a lot tighter community when average people thought only geeks had PCs. When the gamers were more similar to eachother compared to today it was easier to make content that the majority of your players liked and you didn't need to have every difficulty from incredible easy to really hard in the game, most gamers were used to a far higher difficulty then we see today.

Also, MMOs were not so expensive compared to today, most of the AAA MMOs 96-03 had a budget under 5 million dollars while today nothing under $50M would probably be considered AAA by the majority anymore. 5Ms §back then were more in todays value, probably around $12M today but that is still an amount that is far easier to find for a dev with a good idea. That means fewer AAA MMOs gets made and that most publishers and investors are far less inclined to put money into ideas that differs from the norm. Which means that older MMOs were far more different from eachother then modern games are, most devs with something far away what others already made will just not get funding at all or will have to live with 10% the budget of an AAA game (and that usually means the game will fail or be a niche game no matter how good the idea is).

Of course modern games generally have far less bugs (anyone remember AO at launch?) and better engines then the early games had. They have often more focus today on art then the early games but often not much thought put into lore (When you don't have fancy graphics you need to put more work into storytelling). And voice overs were almost unheard of in the old days, even though VOs and constant cutscenes can be annoying when overused.

Amathe

It would not make sense to design every mmo based upon what people liked in an earlier era of gaming.

But it makes perfect sense to design some games on that basis for people who, like me, enjoy old school game design.

Vesavius

fatears said:

However, not every preference for something old is nostalgia, and here is an example of preference: - I have always enjoyed a lager, since I first discovered alcohol with a pint of aforesaid lager, and I still enjoy a lager. If someone gives me a glass of wine, I am likely to push it to one side and drink a lager instead. That emphatically is not nostalgia, it is my preference for a lager. I am sure no-one in their right mind would argue otherwise. 

Indeed. I don't know why many can't see it's a preference for a certain type of system design and underpinning philosophy.

I guess lazy thinking has something to do with it.

Gdemami

Vesavius said:
Indeed. I don't know why many can't see it's a preference for a certain type of system design and underpinning philosophy.

I guess lazy thinking has something to do with it.

There is a notable difference between a preference and rumbling about how current games are not how they used to be, how they are trash, etc...

DrDread74

I agree the nostalgia of older games is a problem. The people who often complain of older games being better never actually want to play those older games which is ironic.

[mod edit]

Kyleran

Gdemami said:

SpottyGekko said:
If you don't change your personal tastes, how does that translate into "accepting the changes" ?

"Nostalgia" refers to an imperfect recollection of past events, where those events become more appealing due to selective memory (i.e. "rose-tinted glasses").

That has nothing to do with preferring a certain game design ethos that is no longer popular in "modern MMO's".                       

That was the point, some people cannot accept the changes that differ from their own.

Like I said, it is more of inability to change rather than "nostalgia", although those two are not mutualy exclusive and likely go often hand in hand.

I definitely suffer from an inability to change. I don't like action combat  and prefer tab targeting, but it isn't nostalgia driving this preference, more like slow reflexes and I enjoy less frantic combat.

I also enjoy races having different starting stats, gear that is strong against some damage/armor types and weaker against others.

I prefer long strolls on the beach, (strategic travel times), no dungeon finders, encouraged cooperative group mechanics as I prefer to make friends in game the old fashioned way.

Yes, I fully recall the drawbacks to all of those, it isn't nostagia to say I prefer the benefits each of those offers more than their modern alternatives.

Sovrath

fatears said:

As a caveat, I should mention that I believe that nostalgia can be damaging, that decisions should be made on the current situation, rather than on a set of circumstances that once existed but no longer hold true, this can be seen in the recent vote by baby-boomers for the UK to leave the EU, a vote predicated on nostalgia for an empire long lost to history, and which will result in untold economic damage and loss of status to the UK given the prevailing circumstances. However, I tend to label that "selfishness" rather than "nostalgia" and wish that particular generation good speed as they shuffle off this mortal coil.  

hmmm, I think it depends on the situation. I don't think nostalgia is damaging at all.

An example could be a small city that once was very prosperous but after years it falls upon hard times. Being "nostalgic" for past glory could be the spark to get the city and its populace thinking of ways to steer the city to a better place.

So "yeah" that is taking the current situation and comparing it to a better place and then catapulting people to action. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

However, havign said that, I do agree with you that the exiting from the EU was a bad use of nostalgia and you probably hit it on the head with the idea of thinking back to a past that can never exist in the now.

Nostalgia itself is not bad it's what is done with it that is either bad or good.

Additionally, I agree with you with regards to people conflating preference and nostalgia.

Vesavius

Gdemami said:

Vesavius said:
Indeed. I don't know why many can't see it's a preference for a certain type of system design and underpinning philosophy.

I guess lazy thinking has something to do with it.

There is a notable difference between a preference and rumbling about how current games are not how they used to be, how they are trash, etc...

If a newer game doesn't offer you the basic design philosophy that a person is looking for and, as badly, has a unethical exploitative revenue system driving it's core play systems, then of course that person has the right to an opinion of that game being 'trash' (though, I hope they would support their case better than just saying that).

It still isn't necessarily nostalgia speaking. It's more likely a valid observation of what's on offer and how it fails to subjectively match up to what a player already knows he enjoys.

Dullahan

DKLond said:

There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.

As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.

So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.

This is just dishonest.

Liking an older game is EXACTLY like the OP liking a lager.

What does that even mean - "design paradigms change accordingly"? That sounds like a subtle way of saying things have "evolved" or gotten "better" so as to justify writing off someone's preferences and drop the nostalgia fallacy.

On a daily basis I see people stating exactly why they liked older games or those outside of the mainstream in no uncertain terms, but sure enough someone like you comes in and writes it off as nostalgia for lack of a better argument.

makasouleater69

fatears said:

On these forums I often see comments, which set out the positive attributes of older games, dismissed as nostalgia. Yes, often people look back at their first experiences through rose-tinted glasses, and wish they could repeat them. But often people are simple expressing a preference for something that just so happens not to be the mainstay of current game design. 

[mod edit]

However, not every preference for something old is nostalgia, and here is an example of preference: - I have always enjoyed a lager, since I first discovered alcohol with a pint of aforesaid lager, and I still enjoy a lager. If someone gives me a glass of wine, I am likely to push it to one side and drink a lager instead. That emphatically is not nostalgia, it is my preference for a lager. I am sure no-one in their right mind would argue otherwise. However, I cannot help but feel if i were to replace "lager" with "attribute I enjoyed in one of my first gaming experiences", and "wine" with "attribute I don't enjoy in my more recent gaming experiences" on these forums, it would be dismissed as nostalgia. 

Thoughts? 

The only reason I go back to older games in not nostalgia. Its because there are only 3 games that meet my expectations of a mmo. No cash shop, no real life transactions other then donations, but don't get anything in game in return, and finally a good crafting system. No games meet that but Eq 1999, swg emu, and ryzom. I would really like a newer game with those features, but that isn't gonna happen. MMOS YOUR DEAD TO ME hahah;)

Distopia

I can only speak from a personal standpoint, so I'll say I am nostalgic over SWG. Which I don't view such as a negative descriptor.

Nostalgia: "a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations."

^Yep^ the most fun online gaming experience for me was SWG. I'd like to see a repeat of the variables that came together to create that experience, from those who who were there to help create that experience on a community level. To the many systems in place that created the most in depth MMORPG I've played. 

That want doesn't affect my ability to enjoy current games though.

Gdemami

Vesavius said:
It still isn't necessarily nostalgia speaking.

Games are not "trash" just because you don't like them. That is indeed "nostalgia".

There is other option, accept the change and either enjoy new games for what they are or just move on.

penandpaper

It sounds to me like there's a need for a glossary in these forums.  It would help, but I find it doubtful that anyone would even agree on the definitions. 

danwest58

I think the problem is with everyone who thinks every change is a good change OP and people who dont agree with you are slandered in every which way because you dont agree with them.  For example MMORPG games who think its better to have LFD\LFR than not calling people who think these tools hurt the genera as people who just ware rose tinted glasses.  The only thing you are doing is attacking people based on point of VIEW not on real facts.  For example LFD/LFR has killed your family friendly raiding guilds who progress slower than others but do progress, this is a FACT because outside of a handful of well established guilds you no longer have any new up and coming guilds anymore.  This is because we used AUTOMATION to replace people interaction.

[mod edit]

The problem is we have groups of people who think this is progress when it's really not, unless you call having computers doing the work and handing you something progress progress?  This is why MMORPGs have stagnated as a whole and add.

Gdemami

danwest58 said:

I think the problem is with everyone who thinks every change is a good change OP and people who dont agree with you are slandered in every which way because you dont agree with them.  For example MMORPG games who think its better to have LFD\LFR than not calling people who think these tools hurt the genera as people who just ware rose tinted glasses.  The only thing you are doing is attacking people based on point of VIEW not on real facts.  For example LFD/LFR has killed your family friendly raiding guilds who progress slower than others but do progress, this is a FACT because outside of a handful of well established guilds you no longer have any new up and coming guilds anymore.  This is because we used AUTOMATION to replace people interaction.

[mod edit]


The problem is we have groups of people who think this is progress when it's really not, unless you call having computers doing the work and handing you something progress progress?  This is why MMORPGs have stagnated as a whole and add.

Nah, the problem is there are people who think there is good or bad when the subject is purely matter of individual bias.

It is still just preference.

DKLond

Dullahan said:

DKLond said:

There's a difference between lager and games, though. Games rely entirely on technology - and design paradigms change accordingly.

As such, enjoying a lager 20 years after you first tasted it - is NOT the same thing as enjoying a game 20 years later.

So, you have to be very specific about what "attritbues" you liked about game X - and people are almost never that specific. They just claim they'd love to see another game like game X - which can mean anything, really.

This is just dishonest.

Liking an older game is EXACTLY like the OP liking a lager.

What does that even mean - "design paradigms change accordingly"? That sounds like a subtle way of saying things have "evolved" or gotten "better" so as to justify writing off someone's preferences and drop the nostalgia fallacy.

On a daily basis I see people stating exactly why they liked older games or those outside of the mainstream in no uncertain terms, but sure enough someone like you comes in and writes it off as nostalgia for lack of a better argument.

I'm not sure how an honest opinion can be dishonest.

Calling each other liars won't get us very far, will it?

Design paradigms change means game designs change as technology evolves and the audience changes. If you want to dispute that technology evolves or that game designs have changed - that's cool, but you won't get far.

I'm not saying games are better today - they're just different.

I never said people aren't arguing why they like older games - I'm saying in the case of Pantheon and WoW vanilla servers - I've yet to see an argument that's convincing in terms of not being born out of nostalgia.

If that makes me a liar - then I guess we have different concepts of what being a liar means.

Vesavius

Gdemami said:

Vesavius said:
It still isn't necessarily nostalgia speaking.

Games are not "trash" just because you don't like them. That is indeed "nostalgia".

Your editing didn't show the part where I said that I would hope that the person would support it past just saying that.

Why did you edit that out?

Also, the word 'necessarily' was very important.