lahnmir said:
And EXACTLY that is what is happening right now and you must be blind to not see it. I'll name a few upcoming titles that would never have been worked on if people hadn't voted with their wallets just to help you get started and there are MANY more: Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Chronicles of Elyria, Shards Online, Pantheon, Shroud of the Avatar etc. etc.
Well, you are also wrong.
The reasons why there are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Chronicles of Elyria, Shards Online, Pantheon, Shroud of the Avatar etc. etc. are more banal:
1) Technology for making MMOs is much more advanced and accessible.
2) There is a KS platform that allows otherwise financially non-viable products to start their production.
Those titles are in production not because there is a demand for them but because it is possible to make a game without worry of a failure.
lahnmir said:
And this is where you are utterly and completely wrong.
Well, you are also wrong.
The reasons why there are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Chronicles of Elyria, Shards Online, Pantheon, Shroud of the Avatar etc. etc. are more banal:
1) Technology for making MMOs is much more advanced and accessible.
2) There is a KS platform that allows otherwise financially non-viable products to start their production.
Those titles are in production not because there is a demand for them but because it is possible to make a game without worry of a failure.
Well, the reasons you mention definitely contribute to that, yes. Still, that does not make me wrong. Actually, your points only strengthen what I am saying, let me elaborate.
1) Technology is more advanced and accessible so more people can use it with a lower barrier to enter development, that means more power to the normal people to start creating their own dream projects.
2) These titles would have never met their funding goals if there was no interest, and after their KS campaigns they just kept generating funds through PayPal, investors etc. Also, KS is a tool to measure/create interest and is working as intended (including all its failures).
Both would not be possible without OUR wallets and what WE choose to spend, WE are the ones who can start creating, who can start funding, who can create a buzz. Your points are valid but I see them contributing to what I am saying, not detracting.
Call me optimistic but I stand by my original point, we are going through some very exciting times.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I would say we can all vote with our wallets but that's not even the case anymore. Some of these games are just being propped up like islands on the backs of giant whales.
Yeah, I voted with my wallet, and stopped buying most new products. But the people who support them are legion and have much deeper pockets than I ever did.
If not for EVE I'd be out of the genre completely.
Maybe I already am?
Because your votes is with EVE. That's where it counts, not with what you haven't bought. That premise is predicated on the insane notion that if you don't buy something or spend money on it then it shouldn't be made. But if enough other people want to play that kind of game then they voted with their wallets for it and it continues in development.
The OPs premise is that they are in the majority but developers don't listen to them. If they were in the majority and voting with their wallets for something then they will be heard. It all comes down to that old adage, "Money talks, doo doo walks".
So I spent money on EVE and no one else has made another game like it, not even CCP. :pleased:
I didn't spend money on a host of other games that I didnt care for, yet new games keep coming out every day that I don't care for.
I wasn't claiming to be in a majority, just pointing out voting with my wallet hasn't proven very effective in my case despite other's claims that it is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
to be frank most game forums sites are filled with kids with undevelopment brains, asshats and trolls. If i was a developer sad to say I would not pay much attention either
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Players think these companies run their businesses like a lemonade stand.
Sovrath, I'm a little more sophisticated than to think that, as are probably most other people. But thanks for making the cliched forum posting assumption that everyone else is an idiot.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
So I spent money on EVE and no one else has made another game like it, not even CCP. :pleased:
I didn't spend money on a host of other games that I didnt care for, yet new games keep coming out every day that I don't care for.
I wasn't claiming to be in a majority, just pointing out voting with my wallet hasn't proven very effective in my case despite other's claims that it is.
Think I've had better luck bitching on forums.
I'd say your luck has went just as well TBH . Considering the end result is the same and all...
In the end the phrase "vote with your wallet" just means don't support it if you don't like it. Which in most cases is a non sequitur. As it's often used as a means to decry critique.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah, I voted with my wallet, and stopped buying most new products. But the people who support them are legion and have much deeper pockets than I ever did.
Having a vote does not mean that your side will always win the election, does it? As almost half of the UK voters have found out.
In fact, isn't what we have how the free market should work? Devs try to figure out how many like what. You vote with your $$$. They see the spending patterns, and decide what to do.
Yeah, I voted with my wallet, and stopped buying most new products. But the people who support them are legion and have much deeper pockets than I ever did.
Having a vote does not mean that your side will always win the election, does it? As almost half of the UK voters have found out.
In fact, isn't what we have how the free market should work? Devs try to figure out how many like what. You vote with your $$$. They see the spending patterns, and decide what to do.
Misleading, in the case of the UK vote, when you take into account the 28% who didn't vote, it meant that something like 34% voted to remain, obviously, that wasn't enough, but its far from 'half of the UK' more like a 3rd. Voting with your wallet follows much the same principles as other types of voting, no one individual can influence a games future through their own 'vote' but if enough people 'vote' the same way, then things do happen, as was demonstrated by the UK's vote for independence.
Misleading, in the case of the UK vote, when you take into account the 28% who didn't vote, it meant that something like 34% voted to remain, obviously, that wasn't enough, but its far from 'half of the UK' more like a 3rd.
Well,
a) Not all of the 28% will vote leave, if they do. b) The 28% clearly did not care enough to vote. So rightfully, they have no voice. No one forces them to stay home.
But my point still stands. A large number of people are on the losing side in each and every election. Similarly that is the case in the market too. No one should have the illusion that any devs should cater to you just because you have a few entertainment dollars to be used as votes.
Misleading, in the case of the UK vote, when you take into account the 28% who didn't vote, it meant that something like 34% voted to remain, obviously, that wasn't enough, but its far from 'half of the UK' more like a 3rd.
Well,
a) Not all of the 28% will vote leave, if they do. b) The 28% clearly did not care enough to vote. So rightfully, they have no voice. No one forces them to stay home.
But my point still stands. A large number of people are on the losing side in each and every election. Similarly that is the case in the market too. No one should have the illusion that any devs should cater to you just because you have a few entertainment dollars to be used as votes.
It just means that Devs do not cater to 'individuals' that they cater to the 'masses' is obvious, its why games are so often targetted towards a particular demographic that they want the game to appeal to. Which is also why, when individual players choose to move on from a game, its just a statistic, but when huge groups of players start doing the same thing, its a problem that has to be addressed by the games Developers, one way or another. A fairly clear example would be Wildstar, the game afaik wasn't badly made, but it didn't succeed, players left in numbers high enough, that the issue had to be addressed, the result is the games present predicament, were the measures used sufficient, probably not, but if anything is a clear example of what happens when players vote with their wallets, its Wildstar.
So I spent money on EVE and no one else has made another game like it, not even CCP. :pleased:
I didn't spend money on a host of other games that I didnt care for, yet new games keep coming out every day that I don't care for.
I wasn't claiming to be in a majority, just pointing out voting with my wallet hasn't proven very effective in my case despite other's claims that it is.
Think I've had better luck bitching on forums.
I'd say your luck has went just as well TBH . Considering the end result is the same and all...
In the end the phrase "vote with your wallet" just means don't support it if you don't like it. Which in most cases is a non sequitur. As it's often used as a means to decry critique.
Much like other subjective terms we like to throw around here "vote with your wallet" fails to accurately describe a more complex concept. I think Kano explained it better in his post when he mentioned that companies look at what and how we spend and how we influence others to spend.
I thought the complexity of the issue is: Buy the game? {Yes | No}.
People make it out to be more complex. The OP is making it about him and his issues. He feels powerless which is funny if you think about it. The OP has power. This power: Buy the game? {Yes | No}.
He wants to design a game? He can start a game company and get to to do that.. But that takes hard work and you can fail. I guess posting game design ideas on forums is just as important and you don't have to worry about failure as you aren't doing anything real. You can still get the credit for it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
lahnmir said:
Well, the reasons you mention definitely contribute to that, yes. Still, that does not make me wrong.
It does.
lahnmir said:
These games are being worked on because developers have seen the difference between people willing to spend (say WoW prime numbers), and the number of people that are actually spending right now (several million less).
You cannot compare spending on actual, released game with spending on KS. KS is just an idea, miles away from actual product, heck there is no guarantee there will any product at all.
KS as a demonstration of "interest" is entirely meaningless. Like they say, ideas are like a**holes, everyone got one but there are few than can turn that idea into reality, and more of reality that people are willing to pay for - that is what matters.
KS is not doing any of that, in fact it is circumventing this principle and that is a sole reason why KS exist.
If I made a game all it will cater for is me and 3 others and nothing more regardless what that meant for the success or failure of said product. Because when you start listening to others on how you want to make your game then that's the first step of failure. Eg: everyone is going to say they want more gear and better xp and you make it easier = end of game quality.
lahnmir said:
Well, the reasons you mention definitely contribute to that, yes. Still, that does not make me wrong.
It does.
lahnmir said:
These games are being worked on because developers have seen the difference between people willing to spend (say WoW prime numbers), and the number of people that are actually spending right now (several million less).
You cannot compare spending on actual, released game with spending on KS. KS is just an idea, miles away from actual product, heck there is no guarantee there will any product at all.
KS as a demonstration of "interest" is entirely meaningless. Like they say, ideas are like a**holes, everyone got one but there are few than can turn that idea into reality, and more of reality that people are willing to pay for - that is what matters.
KS is not doing any of that, in fact it is circumventing this principle and that is a sole reason why KS exist.
Huh? Nowhere am I saying that spending on an idea is the same as spending on an actual product, but yes, the only power the consumer has is that of money. He or she can spend that directly or indirectly but it does affect the outcome, it is the ONLY thing that affects the outcome.
And apperently you do not know how creating interest works because Kickstarter is being used for that a LOT. If there is not enough interest, the project won't even get funded in the first place, and a lot of times, when it does actually get funded said team/person turns to bigger investors and shows their KS succes as proof that the concept is sound. And ALL the games I have mentioned are being turned into a reality right now, so you are wrong there too, I am not making this stuff up.... Perhaps you dislike things like Kickstarter? That is fine too but that does not mean it isn't working as intended.
Money, our money, makes it happen, THAT is the power we have, nothing else.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
lahnmir said:
Huh? Nowhere am I saying that spending on an idea is the same as spending on an actual product
You aren't? It seemed to me you are constantly comparing released games to KS projects.
On one hand, you admit that they are not comparable, yet you speak about KS "outcome" - there is no "outcome" of KS. People pay for words, not the outcome - actual game.
With the same note, only proof of concept is a working, released game.
I would say we can all vote with our wallets but that's not even the case anymore. Some of these games are just being propped up like islands on the backs of giant whales.
Yeah, I voted with my wallet, and stopped buying most new products. But the people who support them are legion and have much deeper pockets than I ever did.
If not for EVE I'd be out of the genre completely.
Maybe I already am?
Because your votes is with EVE. That's where it counts, not with what you haven't bought. That premise is predicated on the insane notion that if you don't buy something or spend money on it then it shouldn't be made. But if enough other people want to play that kind of game then they voted with their wallets for it and it continues in development.
The OPs premise is that they are in the majority but developers don't listen to them. If they were in the majority and voting with their wallets for something then they will be heard. It all comes down to that old adage, "Money talks, doo doo walks".
So I spent money on EVE and no one else has made another game like it, not even CCP. :pleased:
I didn't spend money on a host of other games that I didnt care for, yet new games keep coming out every day that I don't care for.
I wasn't claiming to be in a majority, just pointing out voting with my wallet hasn't proven very effective in my case despite other's claims that it is.
Think I've had better luck bitching on forums.
Sure it has. EVE is still going isn't it? CCP is still updating EVE regularly right? That's what voting with your wallet is all about.
Just because you support one game doesn't mean the demographic is large enough to support many. Your vote counting doesn't mean that your vote is all that's needed. Your vote counts, but it's not singularly decisive. It signals the company that people will pay for their product. You can influence others, and I'm certain that you have here on these forums, to join your interest in this game. That's why your vote counts.
You can't always see or know your effective reach, but if I were to wager my money would be on you having a significant impact on EVE. People come to these forums to find out about games. Many more people read than post. I would be surprised if you haven't positively impacted that game population and community.
Good point, at least my support has helped keep EVE running, so voting with my wallet has been successful after all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lahnmir said:
Huh? Nowhere am I saying that spending on an idea is the same as spending on an actual product
You aren't? It seemed to me you are constantly comparing released games to KS projects.
On one hand, you admit that they are not comparable, yet you speak about KS "outcome" - there is no "outcome" of KS. People pay for words, not the outcome - actual game.
With the same note, only proof of concept is a working, released game.
Of course there is a KS outcome, to get funded or not to get funded, the difference being made by OUR money. My posts weren't about KS in the first place, it is just one of the possibilities we have as consumers to fund an idea, a game, to have influence with our wallet. It does not even matter if there is an actual game at the end, it is about the influence, how little it might be. It is about what the actual title of this thread complains about, nothing more.
Funny enough all the games I have mentioned have indeed been on KS but 2 of them (Shards Online and Pantheon) have actually failed their funding goal but are STILL being developed because there is enough interest and/or funding from other sources.
I am not here to promote KS, I am not calling every idea an actually finished game, I am just pointing out why our money is getting more done, how it is our money that influences things and nothing else.
I am also going to leave it at this, we are not going to convince each other and that is perfectly fine. So I'd like to thank you for our discussion but I've said enough about this matter, enjoy your day
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
So therefore developers can make anything and don't have to care about the complaining three weeks into a game............This happens EVERYTIME
I certainly don't play everything, not by a long shot. I don't buy games simply because they're an MMORPG, just as I don't buy every RPG or RTS. I buy games that thematically fit my interest and that is it. As those are the only games I know I may stick around in.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If I made a game all it will cater for is me and 3 others and nothing more regardless what that meant for the success or failure of said product. Because when you start listening to others on how you want to make your game then that's the first step of failure. Eg: everyone is going to say they want more gear and better xp and you make it easier = end of game quality.
if I was to make a game for what others wanted in a game I would rather just get a job as developer instead of risking my life to go out and create my own business.
I am not about to start my own business with the soul objective to basically be someone elses B, that is what consultanting is for
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Have you ever thought how little say the mmo players have on anything ?.......Official Game Forums are actually worthless if you think hard about it. mmorpg.com is the same.
**** We have no Rally point ****...............**** Each poster stands alone****
Here's why:
Lets say something bad is about to happen to a game. Developers announce an up coming change. This change is undesired by the larger population.
On the games forums the first player expresses his opinion. Then in every case that poster gets derailed by the next five posters for some odd reason. Now understand the larger population really doesn't like this change. That player seemingly stands alone ! A few hours later another poster expresses the same opinion, he to gets derailed by the next five posters.....This happens over and over until the change is made anyway, then the game looses its population because of it.........I'm sure everyone of us had seen this.
Black Desert Online - Is a good example at least here on mmorpg.com....It seems their are EXTREMELY STRONG FANS that welcome a change no matter how bad the magnitude of the change is......I for one, cant figure out where these people come from ?......In many cases, it's crystal clear what's about to happen is bad, yet poster after poster gets derailed, and seemingly stands alone !.....Then the population drops !
World of Warcraft - Is a good example. The game that took the industry by storm. First we had Vanilla, slowly the population raised to 13 million. World of Warcraft was a household name. Talked about in every school yard, talked about in the work place. Even non-gamers knew what it was just from voices around the house. Well, because of undesired changes the game is down to 6 million, even that's a lie !
I know what your thinking, I know what your about to say !......The game is getting old and this is natural !......Wrong !......The game has changed for the bad. People rage quit by the millions !......Yes, 7 million !
Vanguard - What a topic right ?......It's history is long, so I'll start in the middle. SOE took the game from Sigil. Added a new starter area, and patched it to be playable. People raged in a bad way about this game, yet it still had a large following regardless. SOE did the poorest job in history of advertising.
Some facts about the consistent low population. Trickling !........Players cycled in and out, thousands if not millions. Weekly 50 players in 50 players out. Never all at once, EVER !.......It's a fact, the largest complaint was low population. Yet every one cycled through.
Developers don't ever take opinions, NOT AT ALL, and the players have no say. mmorpg.com is nothing more than a web site.
..........................................Optional Example of standing alone..................................
A popular mmo is released, two weeks in the population drops 10%. Developers decide to reduce the difficulty 80% to bring in more players ( clear bad choice ).
- Player #1, expressed, no I'll quit !.......An individual statement
- Player #2, expressed, no I'll quit !.......An individual statement
- Player #3, expressed, no I'll quit !.......An individual statement
What developers don't know is ONE MILLION feel the say way, and will quit............Everyone stands alone !
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
The reasons why there are Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Chronicles of Elyria, Shards Online, Pantheon, Shroud of the Avatar etc. etc. are more banal:
1) Technology for making MMOs is much more advanced and accessible.
2) There is a KS platform that allows otherwise financially non-viable products to start their production.
Those titles are in production not because there is a demand for them but because it is possible to make a game without worry of a failure.
To answer to the main topic... We do have power, we rule with our wallets.
1) Technology is more advanced and accessible so more people can use it with a lower barrier to enter development, that means more power to the normal people to start creating their own dream projects.
2) These titles would have never met their funding goals if there was no interest, and after their KS campaigns they just kept generating funds through PayPal, investors etc. Also, KS is a tool to measure/create interest and is working as intended (including all its failures).
Both would not be possible without OUR wallets and what WE choose to spend, WE are the ones who can start creating, who can start funding, who can create a buzz. Your points are valid but I see them contributing to what I am saying, not detracting.
Call me optimistic but I stand by my original point, we are going through some very exciting times.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I didn't spend money on a host of other games that I didnt care for, yet new games keep coming out every day that I don't care for.
I wasn't claiming to be in a majority, just pointing out voting with my wallet hasn't proven very effective in my case despite other's claims that it is.
Think I've had better luck bitching on forums.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In the end the phrase "vote with your wallet" just means don't support it if you don't like it. Which in most cases is a non sequitur. As it's often used as a means to decry critique.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In fact, isn't what we have how the free market should work? Devs try to figure out how many like what. You vote with your $$$. They see the spending patterns, and decide what to do.
Voting with your wallet follows much the same principles as other types of voting, no one individual can influence a games future through their own 'vote' but if enough people 'vote' the same way, then things do happen, as was demonstrated by the UK's vote for independence.
a) Not all of the 28% will vote leave, if they do.
b) The 28% clearly did not care enough to vote. So rightfully, they have no voice. No one forces them to stay home.
But my point still stands. A large number of people are on the losing side in each and every election. Similarly that is the case in the market too. No one should have the illusion that any devs should cater to you just because you have a few entertainment dollars to be used as votes.
Which is also why, when individual players choose to move on from a game, its just a statistic, but when huge groups of players start doing the same thing, its a problem that has to be addressed by the games Developers, one way or another.
A fairly clear example would be Wildstar, the game afaik wasn't badly made, but it didn't succeed, players left in numbers high enough, that the issue had to be addressed, the result is the games present predicament, were the measures used sufficient, probably not, but if anything is a clear example of what happens when players vote with their wallets, its Wildstar.
I thought the complexity of the issue is: Buy the game? {Yes | No}.
People make it out to be more complex. The OP is making it about him and his issues. He feels powerless which is funny if you think about it. The OP has power. This power: Buy the game? {Yes | No}.
He wants to design a game? He can start a game company and get to to do that.. But that takes hard work and you can fail. I guess posting game design ideas on forums is just as important and you don't have to worry about failure as you aren't doing anything real. You can still get the credit for it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Lots of talk about:
" vote with your wallet "
But no one seems to discuss:
" everyone plays everything "
So therefore developers can make anything and don't have to care about the complaining three weeks into a game............This happens EVERYTIME
KS as a demonstration of "interest" is entirely meaningless. Like they say, ideas are like a**holes, everyone got one but there are few than can turn that idea into reality, and more of reality that people are willing to pay for - that is what matters.
KS is not doing any of that, in fact it is circumventing this principle and that is a sole reason why KS exist.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
And apperently you do not know how creating interest works because Kickstarter is being used for that a LOT. If there is not enough interest, the project won't even get funded in the first place, and a lot of times, when it does actually get funded said team/person turns to bigger investors and shows their KS succes as proof that the concept is sound. And ALL the games I have mentioned are being turned into a reality right now, so you are wrong there too, I am not making this stuff up.... Perhaps you dislike things like Kickstarter? That is fine too but that does not mean it isn't working as intended.
Money, our money, makes it happen, THAT is the power we have, nothing else.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
On one hand, you admit that they are not comparable, yet you speak about KS "outcome" - there is no "outcome" of KS.
People pay for words, not the outcome - actual game.
With the same note, only proof of concept is a working, released game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Funny enough all the games I have mentioned have indeed been on KS but 2 of them (Shards Online and Pantheon) have actually failed their funding goal but are STILL being developed because there is enough interest and/or funding from other sources.
I am not here to promote KS, I am not calling every idea an actually finished game, I am just pointing out why our money is getting more done, how it is our money that influences things and nothing else.
I am also going to leave it at this, we are not going to convince each other and that is perfectly fine. So I'd like to thank you for our discussion but I've said enough about this matter, enjoy your day
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I am not about to start my own business with the soul objective to basically be someone elses B, that is what consultanting is for
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So build your own.
Problem solved.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon