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Is this genre currently at its lowest point it can get?

2

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Once MMORPGS have gone full mobile (as in monetization style) you can put a headstone on it.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

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  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    I would be cautious predicting that right now we have hit the lowest point, because we already did so in 2013/14 and it still went even further down from there.

    While 1-2 interesting titles got released and briefly caused some updraft, the even heavier downhill slide of the already existing and established titles was what dragged the genre down again in total.

    image
  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048
    Not at all, if anything I'd claim MMos are in an upturn. With action combat being a more prominent and viable option there are a lot more types of MMos showing up. It doesn't mean its in record highs but I would say the MMO market as a whole is actually doing rather good compared to what it had years ago. 

    We just need to hope this nickle and diming we see with F2P and now venturing into B2P doesn't drag it back down which sadly i think it might be leading to. Good old mobile games influencing publishers to try and take every cent form the customer base with the minimal amount of effort.
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Nah, it can always get worse.  Will it?  It depends on what you are looking for...
  • CyraelCyrael Member UncommonPosts: 239
    MMORPGs are fine. Industries have ups and downs, it's the nature of every business in existence. People need to enjoy what's available instead of constantly looking for that one magical mmorpg that's perfectly tailored for their preferences.

    Games like FFXIV, GW2, etc. are generally all great games in their own right. And as others have already pointed out, metacritic user reviews are generally useless. The genre has some growing pains but it's not in a terrible place atm. I'd personally say the low point was years ago when we had nothing but an endless stream of WoW clones coming out.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,845
    The MMO genre is still going, so it's quite clearly not the lowest it could ever possibly get: it could be dead. 


    For my personal preference, its at the lowest point since I got involved, but that's my personal preference. I can't presume to speak for others preferences so we can only go on hard data (number of games + revenue) and the hard data seems to suggest that the genre is doing fine. 
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  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited June 2016
    Kopogero said:
    I think so, because I don't think its possible to get any lower than now. So, are we supposed to be happy for what's coming in near future? For me it's never been easier to not spend my $. FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2 and to extend ArcheAge were challenging the least. I even recall how when FFXIV released (not Reborn re-release, but way back) I walked all the way to the store only to have last 2nd thought, by comparing it with WOW in every single detail I could possible can.

    ESO the Division and Black Desert were the last. So, we are receiving MMO's and many other F2P ones, but how many of these MMO's were truly exceptional, great and overall accepted positively by the majority of this market? Well, here are the metacritic user scores (and not that metacritic is accurate, but one of the best places to get genuine reviews out of huge poll)

    Black Desert - 7
    The Division - 5.8 (PC)
    ArcheAge - 3.6 o.O
    Elder Scroll - 5.8 (PC)
    GW2 expansion - 7.3
    FFXIV - 6.7 (PC)
    SWTOR - 5.9 (expansion only has 60 user votes, terrible!)

    Do you think is it actually possible to get this genre to go any lower in the next 3-5 years or do you think this is as low it will get? Will we see a MMO with a score of 8 at least and if so which one has the best chance of achieving that. I mean, freaking 8, not 8.5 9 or 10....8!
    Yep it all went down hill after the masses joined. Which was its height, lots would say Arche age is good though ahah. No I do not think we will get any good mmos, because they are all kick started, and focused on nothing more then making the most money the fastest. 

    I think there are only 3 mmos worth playing atm. SWG emu, EQ 1999, and Ryzom. There will never be a game like those 3, with no cash shop, and just a sub fee or donation, that has serious grouping, extensive hard crafting system where not every one makes the same thing. Extensive resource system not just, i find iron ore you find iron ore we all find the same iron ore. EQ 1999 doesn't fit the crafting, but the grouping and mob killing with a group is mad fun in and of it self, and the crafting is alright, and kinda hard and expensive to figure out, in game expensive, not here is 100000 dollars, now i get gambling boxes with unlimited everything. 

    Black desert i wouldent even touch, it was pretty obvious it was just another bad game, with a worthless cash shop, and would follow the way of the arche 

    I played arche in till i realized what the cash shop actually meant. 

    ESO is just a horrible ES single player game, with 1000 of people running around next to you taking everything, and the story makes 0 sense because your suppose to be the super savior but there are 10000 other ones. 

    GW2 just was a bad theme park game if you ask me

    FF was alright for alittle, but it is just another grinding theme park.

    swtor was one of the funner newer games I played, till they went cash shop, then i jumped ship. I like how they made it MP, with the fun side missions where you had to get help, but kept the single player instance so you still could think of your self as a hero. The only thing i really hated was the worthless crafting, and the fact every one got the same companions, but at least there were skins for them. 

    The newer ones I see coming out, are bad kick starters trying to make a quick buck, before every one realizes you can't make a a++ MMO with 1mil. 
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    The genre is out of fashion, the mainstream has moved on. With them the carpet bagger investors have moved on as well, in pursuit of the next trend to jump on and kill. 

    But, I am happy where it is right now. The house had to be burned down to get back to grass roots. The genre is better off as a niche one. Main stream 'broad appeal' appeasement and dishonest gambling based exploitative revenue models were always going to kill it (which I was was saying a long long long time ago, way before it was abroadly accepted view).

    It's future relies on the new wave of crowdfunded titles. If they land and are profitable, then we are golden. If not, the genre is dead man walking as the existing titles fade away over the next few years.

    I was watching the Pantheon stream the other day and that's a game I would definitely play. Saga of Lucima also seems it might hit my sweet spot. There is a future out there for me.

    If not, there is always the past.
  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,794
    Kopogero said:
    I think so, because I don't think its possible to get any lower than now. So, are we supposed to be happy for what's coming in near future? For me it's never been easier to not spend my $. FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2 and to extend ArcheAge were challenging the least. I even recall how when FFXIV released (not Reborn re-release, but way back) I walked all the way to the store only to have last 2nd thought, by comparing it with WOW in every single detail I could possible can.

    ESO the Division and Black Desert were the last. So, we are receiving MMO's and many other F2P ones, but how many of these MMO's were truly exceptional, great and overall accepted positively by the majority of this market? Well, here are the metacritic user scores (and not that metacritic is accurate, but one of the best places to get genuine reviews out of huge poll)

    Black Desert - 7
    The Division - 5.8 (PC)
    ArcheAge - 3.6 o.O
    Elder Scroll - 5.8 (PC)
    GW2 expansion - 7.3
    FFXIV - 6.7 (PC)
    SWTOR - 5.9 (expansion only has 60 user votes, terrible!)

    Do you think is it actually possible to get this genre to go any lower in the next 3-5 years or do you think this is as low it will get? Will we see a MMO with a score of 8 at least and if so which one has the best chance of achieving that. I mean, freaking 8, not 8.5 9 or 10....8!


    I do not consider The Division an MMO. It is an open world game with limited co-op and multiplayer. Frankly, I would rather play such a game as The Division or any open world game like it over most of the MMO's on the list above.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,025
    I'd say things are actually looking up lately with several indie titles looking interesting to me.

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kopogero said:
    I think so, because I don't think its possible to get any lower than now. So, are we supposed to be happy for what's coming in near future? For me it's never been easier to not spend my $. FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2 and to extend ArcheAge were challenging the least. I even recall how when FFXIV released (not Reborn re-release, but way back) I walked all the way to the store only to have last 2nd thought, by comparing it with WOW in every single detail I could possible can.

    ESO the Division and Black Desert were the last. So, we are receiving MMO's and many other F2P ones, but how many of these MMO's were truly exceptional, great and overall accepted positively by the majority of this market? Well, here are the metacritic user scores (and not that metacritic is accurate, but one of the best places to get genuine reviews out of huge poll)

    Black Desert - 7
    The Division - 5.8 (PC)
    ArcheAge - 3.6 o.O
    Elder Scroll - 5.8 (PC)
    GW2 expansion - 7.3
    FFXIV - 6.7 (PC)
    SWTOR - 5.9 (expansion only has 60 user votes, terrible!)

    Do you think is it actually possible to get this genre to go any lower in the next 3-5 years or do you think this is as low it will get? Will we see a MMO with a score of 8 at least and if so which one has the best chance of achieving that. I mean, freaking 8, not 8.5 9 or 10....8!

    So what you're quoting here are user scores. Unfortunately, user scores seem to be useless when it comes to video games. Many users rely on a binary system for grading games. Take a look at some of the comments. Here's one from The Division, 0/10 - "The latest patch 1.1 is full of bugs / exploits / cheating. I have asked for a full refund on steam. The game was great until there was nothing to do. I hit 30, and the repetition sunk in and the lack of content was an issue. Finally they released a content patch and it was basically piss poor attempt and rush job that wasn't full tested. I gave this game a 9 until this happened. "

    Sooooooo, the game was good enough to play for 50 hours, but once those 50 hours were up!!! It became sucky....... just all of a sudden, and it took 50 hours to figure that out. 

    Other users feel it necessary to carry out some sort of personal vendetta against "the man" like with SWTOR and ANYTHING having to do with EA. 0/10 - "Terrible game that has major bugs, database, game engine and severe performance issues. The bottom line is that SWTOR is nothing more than a cash grab by LA/EA/Bioware under the Star Wars IP."

    Yet, critics rated the game at 85. So this is, basically, the major issue with gamers. They feel like they need to strike out in some way, and a tool like metacritic gives them the avenue to do that. So, really, it doesn't take a genius to discover that there is a serious lack of objective arguments by gamers. Then we get people creating threads on forums talking about how the genre is at it's lowest point, and uses fallacious stats to support their similarly flawed argument.

    If the OP had actually cared about the discussion, he could have used the critics scores and discovered that the games he listed were reviewed favorably by critics:
    Black Desert - 73
    The Division - 80 (PC)
    ArcheAge - 80
    Elder Scroll - 74 (PC)
    GW2 expansion - 90
    FFXIV - 86 (PC)
    SWTOR - 85 

    So it's really not all doom and gloom. However, I suppose there are those who choose to believe in these subjective reviews and rally around them like they are objective. Mostly it's people who don't understand what objectivity even is, and there are plenty. Unfortunately, what they don't seem to understand is that their continuous contribution to these efforts actually contributes to making user reviews irrelevant. So a once useful tool is becoming less and less meaningful. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308

    My theory is that you don't actually like playing MMOs anymore but you keep trying to relive the nostalgia you felt when you did like to play them. Its a common problem among game developers also. They Loved (past tense) playing games like the ones they are making but they don't anymore yet they are trying hard to recapture that feeling they had when they did. That's why most games aren't as good as they could be.

    It's like trying to relive the feeling you had when you first saw Star Wars or (insert favorite move) by watching every other SciFi movie you can find. None of them will ever compare to your first MMO even though they are much, much better games with much, much better graphics and interfaces.

    I had some great MMO memories from playing Asherons Call decades ago but if you try jumping onto that game today you will vomit at not just the graphics but the gameplay and lack of the simplest UI features.

    Complaining that all MMOs today are crap and the only ones that were good were the ones you played back then is EXACTLY LIKE when you hear old people talk about how they wish their cell phones just had number buttons on them and that reading news online is so crappy compared to reading a newspaper and you should go play outside with a stick and a ball instead of behind that computer etc.

    You got old man, you got OLD =)


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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    DrDread74 said:

    My theory is that you don't actually like playing MMOs anymore but you keep trying to relive the nostalgia you felt when you did like to play them. Its a common problem among game developers also. They Loved (past tense) playing games like the ones they are making but they don't anymore yet they are trying hard to recapture that feeling they had when they did. That's why most games aren't as good as they could be.

    It's like trying to relive the feeling you had when you first saw Star Wars or (insert favorite move) by watching every other SciFi movie you can find. None of them will ever compare to your first MMO even though they are much, much better games with much, much better graphics and interfaces.

    I had some great MMO memories from playing Asherons Call decades ago but if you try jumping onto that game today you will vomit at not just the graphics but the gameplay and lack of the simplest UI features.

    Complaining that all MMOs today are crap and the only ones that were good were the ones you played back then is EXACTLY LIKE when you hear old people talk about how they wish their cell phones just had number buttons on them and that reading news online is so crappy compared to reading a newspaper and you should go play outside with a stick and a ball instead of behind that computer etc.

    You got old man, you got OLD =)



    Oh!!! Perfect example. So my wife and I sat the kids down a couple weeks back to watch "Encino Man" because it was like one of the best comedies we remembered growing up with. So 3 of the 4 at least made it through the movie, but there were few chuckles, even my wife and I found it kinda, "meh". 

    I think the same goes for games. We've got developers trying to create "Encino Man" still and make it as great as they remembered. However, the people who actually enjoyed it have changed, so that market is gone, and the younger market wants something completely different (probably some sort of hysterical ranting lunatic like PewDiePie), that people who loved Encino Man simply don't understand. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,844
    CrazKanuk said:


    Oh!!! Perfect example. So my wife and I sat the kids down a couple weeks back to watch "Encino Man" because it was like one of the best comedies we remembered growing up with. 
    Considering it only got 16% on Rotten Tomatoes and only 56% liked it I wonder if it really was "that good".  ;)
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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Sovrath said:
    CrazKanuk said:


    Oh!!! Perfect example. So my wife and I sat the kids down a couple weeks back to watch "Encino Man" because it was like one of the best comedies we remembered growing up with. 
    Considering it only got 16% on Rotten Tomatoes and only 56% liked it I wonder if it really was "that good".  ;)
    Oh, trust me, I wondered the same after seeing it again. I actually questioned what might be wrong with me that I liked this at some point lol. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 932
    My last hope when it comes to AAA MMO is Lineage Eternal. Maybe developers can understand what made Lineage 1 so great and do the right thing in LE.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    edited June 2016
    When any game with an online presence is called an MMO then I have to say, yes it is. There's columnists on this site calling The Division an MMO. Now I play The Division, and I can say with complete honesty that it is in no way Massively Multiplayer.

    Then you have actual MMO's that do nothing more than provide group content with the odd 20 man raid, which seems kind of pointless for a game which could be Massively Multiplayer if they'd just allow it.

    When you actually take the time to look at what's available right now, there's not that many MMO's that really deserve to be using the term Massively Multiplayer.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 6,053
    edited June 2016
    Nope.  UO and EQ had terrible design decisions.  sure they were innovative but pre-WOW MMOs were the worst options we've ever had as a whole.  SWG was also poorly designed which is why it failed to really capture an audience like WOW did.  SWG could have beaten WOW to the punch if they launched with evolved XWing/Tie Fighter style combat and actual content to go with the sandbox. 

    The current market is saturated and investors/publishers have lost confidence and many designers are going in the wrong direction.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited June 2016
    DrDread74 said:

    My theory is that you don't actually like playing MMOs anymore but you keep trying to relive the nostalgia you felt when you did like to play them. Its a common problem among game developers also. They Loved (past tense) playing games like the ones they are making but they don't anymore yet they are trying hard to recapture that feeling they had when they did. That's why most games aren't as good as they could be.

    It's like trying to relive the feeling you had when you first saw Star Wars or (insert favorite move) by watching every other SciFi movie you can find. None of them will ever compare to your first MMO even though they are much, much better games with much, much better graphics and interfaces.

    I had some great MMO memories from playing Asherons Call decades ago but if you try jumping onto that game today you will vomit at not just the graphics but the gameplay and lack of the simplest UI features.

    Complaining that all MMOs today are crap and the only ones that were good were the ones you played back then is EXACTLY LIKE when you hear old people talk about how they wish their cell phones just had number buttons on them and that reading news online is so crappy compared to reading a newspaper and you should go play outside with a stick and a ball instead of behind that computer etc.

    You got old man, you got OLD =)

    This is a pretty shallow way of looking at things.

    Did older games suffer from issues that have since been solved by better hardware or internet? Absolutely. Did older games have poor UIs and controls? Definitely.

    Those shortcomings did not make the games altogether poor and its more than a little short-sighted to overlook what they offered below the surface.

    To this day I play several first generation MMOs for the gameplay because, despite those complications, they are still great games which provide an experience which you cannot find anywhere else.

    Nostalgia is irrelevant.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    And worse I may be yet. The worst is not 
    So long as we can say 'This is the worst.'

    Edgar, King Lear

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  • PriddypwnyPriddypwny Member UncommonPosts: 32
    I'm confused...nobody has mentioned Camelot Unchained at all during this thread. Is nobody else looking forward to this title? Shortly after (and somewhat during as well) my Asheron's Call time on Leafcull, I played DAoC for years. The reinvention and reintroduction of RvR doesn't sound great to anyone?!?
  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    pantheron said:
    A lot better than when we had 2 games to choose from, and both were grindy and meandering (UO and Everquest)
    Um you forgot Asheron's Call.  That and a half-dozen bit players.  However even among those three games there was more variety in gameplay than you generally see now.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    GrimderTF said:
    I'm confused...nobody has mentioned Camelot Unchained at all during this thread. Is nobody else looking forward to this title? Shortly after (and somewhat during as well) my Asheron's Call time on Leafcull, I played DAoC for years. The reinvention and reintroduction of RvR doesn't sound great to anyone?!?
    Well if we accepted there may be something to play, we'd have no reason to discuss the coming MMORPG apocalypse. Get with the program.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    I refuse to vote because I'm confused. Which is quite normal for me. Not its lowest point because It can go much lower. The main factor is not being discussed. The population for gaming is way too spread out to accurately gauge a game correctly. There are in fact too many choices. Even though I will admit that big money is not really committing like before and investing into the PC mmorpgs. So I remain confused and that's why I drink bourbon, because it gets me through the hard times.
     
  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    depends on what one calls low. AAA studios have exited, indies rely on others to fund their projects which require 100 times more funds than they get.


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