SEANMCAD said:
I think you guys need to give a concrete example.
I want to make an axe, explain to me a compelling minigame getting an axe made or at least a min-game with a description that doesnt make me want to vomit
I am wondering if you ever done any crafting in any game...
Deivos said: Again the example being Ryzom, where they use recipes, but the recipes call for categories of material types to which you can use different quality and variety of products to make both differing tiers of an item as well as modify the stats to suit different goals.
Having myriads of material quality and thus final products is equally undersired.
Besides, it is still same RNG system, just the RNG was moved to material.
RNG means "Random Number Generator"
Meaning, the items are generated with random values.
Materials are not random.
As for the myriad of materials being bad thing, I'd have to say "yes" offering a lot of variety can hit a point where it's too much, wherein the variances are so minute or insignificant that you're dealing with a large spectrum of what is simply junk.
However, that is not the statement I made, as even in your quoted segment I only stated "different quality and variety of products".
Having a ever climbing list of greys, greens, and blue item recipes that are inflexible and require the same kind of range of materials, save for they lack the variance and choice offered in the likes of a recipe system like Ryzom or Inquisition, is no less a presentation of offering a myriad of undesired content. Perhaps more so since you're looking then at a ladder of equipment and components that you know is going to be outmoded in a rather short amount of time.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
All this talk about crafting I think we need to make more concrete.
For example: I need to cut down a tree for wood (why because I like that, I dont think wood should just magically appear for me when making something). ok, so to cut wood what should I use? an axe, a chainsaw? well how do I make that? what should the variety outcome of making an axe? quality difference? (many systems already have this). Different durablity? (many systems have this) so what else? color? should it look different randomly? (which would not make any sense to me) should there be a RNG that makes it talk? what, specially what as an example
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If it wasn't, there would be no point in having different qualities.
Can you repeat that in a way that makes sense?
Materials aren't random. Each material is a fixed type and quality that confers it's own stat values when used. There is a spectrum of them that make up a material type, IE, a category in which they exist.
Recipes in Ryzom and Inquisition both take the approach of having recipes that require a type of material rather than a specific material component. Meaning that you can pick any of those materials of that particular type.
That isn't random, that's placing the choice of what quality of item and what stat values will be conferred on the gear made directly in the hands of the player.
That is the least random thing you can ever do.
How in the nine hells do you perceive this as RNG!?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If it wasn't, there would be no point in having different qualities.
Can you repeat that in a way that makes sense?
Materials aren't random. Each material is a fixed type and quality that confers it's own stat values when used. There is a spectrum of them that make up a material type, IE, a category in which they exist.
Recipes in Ryzom and Inquisition both take the approach of having recipes that require a type of material rather than a specific material component. Meaning that you can pick any of those materials of that particular type.
That isn't random, that's placing the choice of what quality of item and what stat values will be conferred on the gear made directly in the hands of the player.
That is the least random thing you can ever do.
How in the nine hells do you perceive this as RNG!?
as it is in real life. Quality is dictated mostly by your skill in a specific craft, understanding of quality materials and the ability to find or make such materials. Is there some RGN in that? yes but its small compared to the skills
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Making a good crafting system, as with making a good implementation of most other game mechanics, is all about giving players interesting gameplay decisions. There are several ways you can go on this, and they aren't mutually exclusive. Among them are:
1) making the crafting process itself interesting, as in a mini-game 2) making it interesting to figure out how to craft things 3) making the choice of what you want to craft interesting
Several games have done (1). A Tale in the Desert is the only game that I've seen attempt (2), and it's hard to scale it so that it doesn't turn into a case where one person figures out how something works and then everyone else knows.
So I want to focus a little more on (3). In many games, there is exactly one item for a given slot to craft in a given level range. The only decision is to craft it or not. Sometimes there are several possible stats you can get, but for most or all classes it is immediately obvious which stats you want and there aren't real decisions to make.
But it doesn't have to be this way. In Uncharted Waters Online, it would be basically trivial to come up with at least 20 complete sets of personal gear with no pieces of gear in common, such that for every single gear set, there is some purpose such that every piece in that set is better than the corresponding piece in all other sets. And that's without any official gear sets or set bonuses. Most personal gear isn't crafted in UWO, but ships and ship gear are. And what is most appropriate to your purposes depends tremendously on what you're trying to do.
That can add a lot of depth to a crafting system. No longer is the choice of what to craft handed to you. But you have a lot of real decisions on what you'd like to have, and so does everyone else--which can lead to complex decisions on what to craft to sell to others. Having uses for several sets of gear also means there is far more use for crafting goods, and far more of a market for selling them.
In many games, there is exactly one item for a given slot to craft in a given level range.
I think this is the key issue here. Many people who are trying to suggest a 'fix' for crafting have never played Tale in the Desert, Wurm, Ryzom or Xyson so they have no point of reference to what more crafting focused games are like and thus have no reference point on how such rich systems could be applied more 'mainstream'
one item for a given level range to me is not a crafting system and as such it just becomes a road block to the other apsects of the gam
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
SEANMCAD said:
I think you guys need to give a concrete example.
I want to make an axe, explain to me a compelling minigame getting an axe made or at least a min-game with a description that doesnt make me want to vomit
I am wondering if you ever done any crafting in any game...
I have several hundern hours in Wurm (likely around 1000 becuase I played for two years before it was on steam), about 100 or so in Xyson (before it was on steam), 757 hours on 7 days to die, oh and I was a 'crafter' in EQ2 which I found barely tolerable but that is before i knew about other games in the crafting world.
oh and I played a Mod for Neverwinter nights 1 with a crafting engine religiously
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
How about those who prefer to acquire a basic item, by making(crafting) it themselves from things/mats they've collected or purchased from another player, so they can apply their own "stamp"(ie.artwork) to it?
Does that not imply that the final product required gathering(usable materials from simple open world gathering/logging/fishing/hunting or farming, husbandry, etc) specific items to craft(comply with a standard or even rare recipe/pattern by a number of different skill sets) a basic item that can then be used to "create" something unique/special? Just because everyone doesn't want to do all the steps doesn't mean they're not a crafter imo, just not the kind of crafter you may think of when calling someone one.
ie. categories ... gatherer, logger, fisher, hunter, cook, alchemist, carpenter(tools, weapons, instruments, etc), leatherworker(skinner, tanner), farmer(orchardist, fanner, miller, etc), rancher(dairy, fleshmonger..) and so on... http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/f.html and then there's the list of more common crafting vocations in games like tailor, blacksmith etc and all their subsets and lastly what I tend to think of when someone says they want to "create" when they craft, the artist vocations like author, painter, chef, etc.
When it comes down to it, a rpg(role playing game) whether a mmo or single player, has sooo many avenues available to expand beyond the regular old good versus bad protaganists(single, mmo, pve or pvp) just within the "crafting" professions that I just don't understand why anyone would settle for a game with less, whether they particularily want to engage in it or not since it also opens up even more avenues for their gameplay, if only by means of a market for the loot they collect when doing what they enjoy.
I have heard that what they have found via data collection over the years is that what players did to take on the 'role' in a game is the same as they do or want to do in real life.
so if you are art inclined you are likely to gravitate to those roles in a game etc.
The problem (as I see it) is that roles in games are very limited almost to the point where the games are creating roles rather than being a reflection of desire roles. case in point one who is not normally aggressive might become as such by playing a fighter all the time.
I guess this and other items like it might be called 'game theory' and regardless of the name i find it very interesting.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@ SEANMCAD , Lol, I used to pay attention to these theories but now I just spend my time trying to find a game where I feel I fit in, discard the ones where I definitely don't and occasionally visit the ones where I used to before the devs changed them to something almost unrecognizable.:/
As for crafting, I do tend to hold all these new games up to my old standard(UO) for comparison and sadly, other than newer graphics and ease of play(my mousehand isn't what it used to be) most don't even come close imo. That especially includes the crafting and housing systems. I don't need to be entertained every second of my gameplay and even enjoy a bit of a grind as it makes the end result feel like more of an accomplishment. I do try to avoid games where everything you do involves some sort of twitchfest or rng minigame(ie GW2 with their jumping puzzles) and have even gone back to more "simple"(ie. old) games because I prefer fishing where I don't have to battle some minnow or piece of garbage for ten minutes(yes SV, I use the fishing mod...).
As for people playing the type of games that reflect their true desires... I don't even want to go there(zombies, wargames, chaos...).
In many games, there is exactly one item for a given slot to craft in a given level range.
I think this is the key issue here. Many people who are trying to suggest a 'fix' for crafting have never played Tale in the Desert, Wurm, Ryzom or Xyson so they have no point of reference to what more crafting focused games are like and thus have no reference point on how such rich systems could be applied more 'mainstream'
one item for a given level range to me is not a crafting system and as such it just becomes a road block to the other apsects of the gam
I've played all 4 of those, just wanted to make sure you weren't including me in that. Also, which existing standalone small games, such as tetris, match-3, any given atari game, card solitaire, etc., do you actually enjoy?
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
My favorite game for crafting has to be Vanguard or Istaria, followed by eq2 but i enjoy all parts of it from gather materials to the crafting itself, wow has total garbage crafting no failure just have the mats and hit make yeah very fun, heck in eq1 you could loose mats even on stuff considered trivial
If it wasn't, there would be no point in having different qualities.
Can you repeat that in a way that makes sense?
Materials aren't random. Each material is a fixed type and quality that confers it's own stat values when used. There is a spectrum of them that make up a material type, IE, a category in which they exist.
Recipes in Ryzom and Inquisition both take the approach of having recipes that require a type of material rather than a specific material component. Meaning that you can pick any of those materials of that particular type.
That isn't random, that's placing the choice of what quality of item and what stat values will be conferred on the gear made directly in the hands of the player.
That is the least random thing you can ever do.
How in the nine hells do you perceive this as RNG!?
as it is in real life. Quality is dictated mostly by your skill in a specific craft, understanding of quality materials and the ability to find or make such materials. Is there some RGN in that? yes but its small compared to the skills
I am reminded of this:
I would like to believe you but I can't help believing that gamers, in general, don't like negative consequences and "the skill" idea is a way to protect them from it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you take a crafting system akin to what Ryzom has/had, unique items are then the byproduct of the user's choices in crafting as well as materials used.
To make an item unique or special as a product of crafting can happen, so long as the crafting mechanics themselves allow for such variance. Material types, stat balancing through components/sub-components, appearance customization, etc.
You are just stating stat variety and customization. There is nothing that would imply how those come by. Those are two different things.
Deivos said: It's only when you're talking about the banal form of crafting where you pus specific items in and you get specific items out (or an item with a few quality ranges or chance to spawn a rare version) that you run into the struggle of making "special" items.
Material quality, the rarity of the material is what makes the item special - yes, tht is what I am saying . I fail to see what point you are even trying to make here...
I guess in context of paragraph above, you wanted to say that stat variety and customization is difficult to achieve without RNG in simplistic systems, which might be true but that is not the point I was making.
Deivos said:
Again the example being Ryzom, where they use recipes, but the recipes call for categories of material types to which you can use different quality and variety of products to make both differing tiers of an item as well as modify the stats to suit different goals.
Still not addressing point I was making:
If a crafting system allows reliably to craft precisely same items, with precisely same stats, the items are no longer unique or special.
Deivos said:
While not a crafting system, the component model that Gearbox used for their weapon generation is another mechanic that can be used in example of how gear can be crafted. Instead of crafting one whole item, crafting sub-components with their own stats that slot together to form an item allows for a lot of customization, upgradeability, and variance to potential results of crafting an item.
Ok, I guess...?
Still unrelated.
Deivos said:
Add to that the idea something like creating mod slots or even in the crafting process accounting for unique crafting materials then you have some rather flexible and personal outcomes without ever relying on RNG.
Even DA:Inquisition allowed a reasonable level of these concepts between crafting the base weapons/armor in the game using a spectrum of material options, then slotting in additional parts to re-balance or improve the stats.
OK, still RNG is what makes items unique and special...
If you take a crafting system akin to what Ryzom has/had, unique items are then the byproduct of the user's choices in crafting as well as materials used.
To make an item unique or special as a product of crafting can happen, so long as the crafting mechanics themselves allow for such variance. Material types, stat balancing through components/sub-components, appearance customization, etc.
You are just stating stat variety and customization. There is nothing that would imply how those come by. Those are two different things.
Deivos said: It's only when you're talking about the banal form of crafting where you pus specific items in and you get specific items out (or an item with a few quality ranges or chance to spawn a rare version) that you run into the struggle of making "special" items.
Material quality, the rarity of the material is what makes the item special - yes, tht is what I am saying . I fail to see what point you are even trying to make here...
I guess in context of paragraph above, you wanted to say that stat variety and customization is difficult to achieve without RNG in simplistic systems, which might be true but that is not the point I was making.
Deivos said:
Again the example being Ryzom, where they use recipes, but the recipes call for categories of material types to which you can use different quality and variety of products to make both differing tiers of an item as well as modify the stats to suit different goals.
Still not addressing point I was making:
If a crafting system allows reliably to craft precisely same items, with precisely same stats, the items are no longer unique or special.
Deivos said:
While not a crafting system, the component model that Gearbox used for their weapon generation is another mechanic that can be used in example of how gear can be crafted. Instead of crafting one whole item, crafting sub-components with their own stats that slot together to form an item allows for a lot of customization, upgradeability, and variance to potential results of crafting an item.
Ok, I guess...?
Still unrelated.
Deivos said:
Add to that the idea something like creating mod slots or even in the crafting process accounting for unique crafting materials then you have some rather flexible and personal outcomes without ever relying on RNG.
Even DA:Inquisition allowed a reasonable level of these concepts between crafting the base weapons/armor in the game using a spectrum of material options, then slotting in additional parts to re-balance or improve the stats.
OK, still RNG is what makes items unique and special...
At no point did any of that touch on anything logical.
Simply put, the content and items possible to be made in the game all have to exist in said game.
The "unique and special" that you refer to simply does not exist as the RNG has to draw it's results from some kind of item and stat pool, it doesn't magically generate new content every time you click a button.
So instead of having personal control over the results, you are only saying people should have no control over churning out unpredictable clones.
Where I pointed out that personal control grants the capacity for "unique" results is in the fact that a deep level of customization in items means you can make uncommon combinations and designs as opposed to hoping that RNG drops out something interesting.
At no point is RNG remotely capable of providing uniqueness. It is fundamentally limited to offering canned options from a pool of content.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Deivos said:
At no point did any of that touch on anything logical.
Agreed and that is what I said - your post being nonsensical and unrelated, but you still keep pushing it...
So no, your:
Deivos said:
Where I pointed out that personal control grants the capacity for "unique" results is in the fact that a deep level of customization in items means you can make uncommon combinations and designs as opposed to hoping that RNG drops out something interesting.
won't sway my argument away.
If you have a control over crafting outcome, the outcome is no more rare, unique, special or w/e because you can make buck loads of them.
Do you understand what unique means?
What you are talking about is stat customization, a variety - while adding component 1, you get +str, while adding component 2, you get +con, etc. Might be more intricate(via mini-game and mechanics) but principle remains the same. However, that has nothing to do with items being unique and special.
Deivos said:
At no point did any of that touch on anything logical.
Agreed and that is what I said - your post being nonsensical and unrelated, but you still keep pushing it...
So no, your:
Deivos said:
Where I pointed out that personal control grants the capacity for "unique" results is in the fact that a deep level of customization in items means you can make uncommon combinations and designs as opposed to hoping that RNG drops out something interesting.
won't sway my argument away.
If you have a control over crafting outcome, the outcome is no more rare, unique, special or w/e because you can make buck loads of them.
Do you understand what unique means?
What you are talking about is stat customization, a variety - while adding component 1, you get +str, while adding component 2, you get +con, etc. Might be more intricate(via mini-game and mechanics) but principle remains the same. However, that has nothing to do with items being unique and special.
And I would repeat again;
"The "unique and special" that you refer to simply does not exist as the RNG has to draw it's results from some kind of item and stat pool, it doesn't magically generate new content every time you click a button.
So instead of having personal control over the results, you are only saying people should have no control over churning out unpredictable clones."
If you want to claim what you do about my statement, then you are conceding the fact that RNG offers even less capacity for uniqueness.
There are only so many ways an Item can exist as "unique". It effectively boils down to statistical value or cosmetic value. The chance for a specific option in RNG being rare does not in any way grant it a "unique" status because you have to realize that you are far and away not the only person doing crafting in any game, even a small title. The law of inevitability comes into play when you've picked a system where finite percentages exist and the only thing one is looking for is a duplicate result to render something non-unique. The fact RNG has to pull from finite lists of options means that, inevitably, all items possible to be crafted will be crafted multiple times by multiple people.
Meaning, in RNG there is simply no such thing as "unique".
The counterpoint on a manual customization system is/was the fact that people act on bias, and that will result in permutations and options that are considerably less common or effectively more rare. Even scarcity can affect that if they design the game to have high barriers to access specific materials without having to delve into any RNG nonsense.
If you are truly arguing for the notion of unique as in a "one of a kind" object then the only way you obtain that is through player authored content, no integrated system using dev content will ever fulfill that type of "unique" status.
Also, I addressed cosmetics as part of this subject as far back as my first post.
"To make an item unique or special as a product of crafting can happen, so long as the crafting mechanics themselves allow for such variance. Material types, stat balancing through components/sub-components, appearance customization, etc.
It's only when you're talking about the banal form of crafting where you put specific items in and you get specific items out (or an item with a few quality ranges or chance to spawn a rare version) that you run into the struggle of making "special" items."
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
In many games, there is exactly one item for a given slot to craft in a given level range.
I think this is the key issue here. Many people who are trying to suggest a 'fix' for crafting have never played Tale in the Desert, Wurm, Ryzom or Xyson so they have no point of reference to what more crafting focused games are like and thus have no reference point on how such rich systems could be applied more 'mainstream'
one item for a given level range to me is not a crafting system and as such it just becomes a road block to the other apsects of the gam
I've played all 4 of those, just wanted to make sure you weren't including me in that. Also, which existing standalone small games, such as tetris, match-3, any given atari game, card solitaire, etc., do you actually enjoy?
I havent played those style games since around 1987. Which I suspect is why I dont all my planning, organizing, collecting and making to go on a fishing trip too all be trumped by my slow reaction time because I cant get that bar to hit that mark just right like in real life..oh wait, not remotely at all like real life....
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Deivos said:
If you want to claim what you do about my statement, then you are conceding the fact that RNG offers even less capacity for uniqueness.
1) I craft 100 swords with +str attribute - player has control over outcome. 2) I craft 100 swords, but only 1 has +str attribute - there is only 1% chance to craft +str sword.
Wondering what is so difficult to understand about that...
How about you actually focus on what I am saying instead of repeating same nonsense over and over? That would actually allow for some constructive and sensible discussion...
Deivos said:
If you want to claim what you do about my statement, then you are conceding the fact that RNG offers even less capacity for uniqueness.
1) I craft 100 swords with +str attribute - players has control over outcome. 2) I craft 100 swords, but only 1 is has +str attribute - there is only 1% chance to craft +str sword.
Wondering what is so difficult to understand about that...
How about you actually focus on what I am saying instead of repeating same nonsense over and over? That would actually allow for some constructive and sensible discussion...
and that is a fairly common design in crafting engines so not sure what the core point is here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
Meaning, the items are generated with random values.
Materials are not random.
As for the myriad of materials being bad thing, I'd have to say "yes" offering a lot of variety can hit a point where it's too much, wherein the variances are so minute or insignificant that you're dealing with a large spectrum of what is simply junk.
However, that is not the statement I made, as even in your quoted segment I only stated "different quality and variety of products".
Having a ever climbing list of greys, greens, and blue item recipes that are inflexible and require the same kind of range of materials, save for they lack the variance and choice offered in the likes of a recipe system like Ryzom or Inquisition, is no less a presentation of offering a myriad of undesired content. Perhaps more so since you're looking then at a ladder of equipment and components that you know is going to be outmoded in a rather short amount of time.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If it wasn't, there would be no point in having different qualities.
For example:
I need to cut down a tree for wood (why because I like that, I dont think wood should just magically appear for me when making something). ok, so to cut wood what should I use? an axe, a chainsaw? well how do I make that? what should the variety outcome of making an axe? quality difference? (many systems already have this). Different durablity? (many systems have this) so what else? color? should it look different randomly? (which would not make any sense to me) should there be a RNG that makes it talk? what, specially what as an example
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Materials aren't random. Each material is a fixed type and quality that confers it's own stat values when used. There is a spectrum of them that make up a material type, IE, a category in which they exist.
Recipes in Ryzom and Inquisition both take the approach of having recipes that require a type of material rather than a specific material component. Meaning that you can pick any of those materials of that particular type.
That isn't random, that's placing the choice of what quality of item and what stat values will be conferred on the gear made directly in the hands of the player.
That is the least random thing you can ever do.
How in the nine hells do you perceive this as RNG!?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Quality is dictated mostly by your skill in a specific craft, understanding of quality materials and the ability to find or make such materials.
Is there some RGN in that? yes but its small compared to the skills
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
We(you) were talking about material quality. The quality is random attribute of material.
Yes there is some random involved in making refined materials but mostly that process is based on skill, not random
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
1) making the crafting process itself interesting, as in a mini-game
2) making it interesting to figure out how to craft things
3) making the choice of what you want to craft interesting
Several games have done (1). A Tale in the Desert is the only game that I've seen attempt (2), and it's hard to scale it so that it doesn't turn into a case where one person figures out how something works and then everyone else knows.
So I want to focus a little more on (3). In many games, there is exactly one item for a given slot to craft in a given level range. The only decision is to craft it or not. Sometimes there are several possible stats you can get, but for most or all classes it is immediately obvious which stats you want and there aren't real decisions to make.
But it doesn't have to be this way. In Uncharted Waters Online, it would be basically trivial to come up with at least 20 complete sets of personal gear with no pieces of gear in common, such that for every single gear set, there is some purpose such that every piece in that set is better than the corresponding piece in all other sets. And that's without any official gear sets or set bonuses. Most personal gear isn't crafted in UWO, but ships and ship gear are. And what is most appropriate to your purposes depends tremendously on what you're trying to do.
That can add a lot of depth to a crafting system. No longer is the choice of what to craft handed to you. But you have a lot of real decisions on what you'd like to have, and so does everyone else--which can lead to complex decisions on what to craft to sell to others. Having uses for several sets of gear also means there is far more use for crafting goods, and far more of a market for selling them.
one item for a given level range to me is not a crafting system and as such it just becomes a road block to the other apsects of the gam
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Quality is not a random attribute, it's a fixed attribute of the specific material. This was already explained.
You're making an argument out of a false point that was already explained.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
oh and I played a Mod for Neverwinter nights 1 with a crafting engine religiously
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Does that not imply that the final product required gathering(usable materials from simple open world gathering/logging/fishing/hunting or farming, husbandry, etc) specific items to craft(comply with a standard or even rare recipe/pattern by a number of different skill sets) a basic item that can then be used to "create" something unique/special? Just because everyone doesn't want to do all the steps doesn't mean they're not a crafter imo, just not the kind of crafter you may think of when calling someone one.
ie. categories ... gatherer, logger, fisher, hunter, cook, alchemist, carpenter(tools, weapons, instruments, etc), leatherworker(skinner, tanner), farmer(orchardist, fanner, miller, etc), rancher(dairy, fleshmonger..) and so on... http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/f.html and then there's the list of more common crafting vocations in games like tailor, blacksmith etc and all their subsets and lastly what I tend to think of when someone says they want to "create" when they craft, the artist vocations like author, painter, chef, etc.
When it comes down to it, a rpg(role playing game) whether a mmo or single player, has sooo many avenues available to expand beyond the regular old good versus bad protaganists(single, mmo, pve or pvp) just within the "crafting" professions that I just don't understand why anyone would settle for a game with less, whether they particularily want to engage in it or not since it also opens up even more avenues for their gameplay, if only by means of a market for the loot they collect when doing what they enjoy.
so if you are art inclined you are likely to gravitate to those roles in a game etc.
The problem (as I see it) is that roles in games are very limited almost to the point where the games are creating roles rather than being a reflection of desire roles. case in point one who is not normally aggressive might become as such by playing a fighter all the time.
I guess this and other items like it might be called 'game theory' and regardless of the name i find it very interesting.
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Lol, I used to pay attention to these theories but now I just spend my time trying to find a game where I feel I fit in, discard the ones where I definitely don't and occasionally visit the ones where I used to before the devs changed them to something almost unrecognizable.:/
As for crafting, I do tend to hold all these new games up to my old standard(UO) for comparison and sadly, other than newer graphics and ease of play(my mousehand isn't what it used to be) most don't even come close imo. That especially includes the crafting and housing systems. I don't need to be entertained every second of my gameplay and even enjoy a bit of a grind as it makes the end result feel like more of an accomplishment. I do try to avoid games where everything you do involves some sort of twitchfest or rng minigame(ie GW2 with their jumping puzzles) and have even gone back to more "simple"(ie. old) games because I prefer fishing where I don't have to battle some minnow or piece of garbage for ten minutes(yes SV, I use the fishing mod...).
As for people playing the type of games that reflect their true desires... I don't even want to go there(zombies, wargames, chaos...).
I would like to believe you but I can't help believing that gamers, in general, don't like negative consequences and "the skill" idea is a way to protect them from it.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
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My claim was, that without RNG, you won't get unique, special items. Here is your reply:
You are just stating stat variety and customization. There is nothing that would imply how those come by. Those are two different things.
Material quality, the rarity of the material is what makes the item special - yes, tht is what I am saying . I fail to see what point you are even trying to make here...
I guess in context of paragraph above, you wanted to say that stat variety and customization is difficult to achieve without RNG in simplistic systems, which might be true but that is not the point I was making.
Still not addressing point I was making:
If a crafting system allows reliably to craft precisely same items, with precisely same stats, the items are no longer unique or special.
Ok, I guess...? Still unrelated.
OK, still RNG is what makes items unique and special...
Simply put, the content and items possible to be made in the game all have to exist in said game.
The "unique and special" that you refer to simply does not exist as the RNG has to draw it's results from some kind of item and stat pool, it doesn't magically generate new content every time you click a button.
So instead of having personal control over the results, you are only saying people should have no control over churning out unpredictable clones.
Where I pointed out that personal control grants the capacity for "unique" results is in the fact that a deep level of customization in items means you can make uncommon combinations and designs as opposed to hoping that RNG drops out something interesting.
At no point is RNG remotely capable of providing uniqueness. It is fundamentally limited to offering canned options from a pool of content.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So no, your: won't sway my argument away.
If you have a control over crafting outcome, the outcome is no more rare, unique, special or w/e because you can make buck loads of them.
Do you understand what unique means?
What you are talking about is stat customization, a variety - while adding component 1, you get +str, while adding component 2, you get +con, etc. Might be more intricate(via mini-game and mechanics) but principle remains the same. However, that has nothing to do with items being unique and special.
"The "unique and special" that you refer to simply does not exist as the RNG has to draw it's results from some kind of item and stat pool, it doesn't magically generate new content every time you click a button.
So instead of having personal control over the results, you are only saying people should have no control over churning out unpredictable clones."
If you want to claim what you do about my statement, then you are conceding the fact that RNG offers even less capacity for uniqueness.
There are only so many ways an Item can exist as "unique". It effectively boils down to statistical value or cosmetic value. The chance for a specific option in RNG being rare does not in any way grant it a "unique" status because you have to realize that you are far and away not the only person doing crafting in any game, even a small title. The law of inevitability comes into play when you've picked a system where finite percentages exist and the only thing one is looking for is a duplicate result to render something non-unique. The fact RNG has to pull from finite lists of options means that, inevitably, all items possible to be crafted will be crafted multiple times by multiple people.
Meaning, in RNG there is simply no such thing as "unique".
The counterpoint on a manual customization system is/was the fact that people act on bias, and that will result in permutations and options that are considerably less common or effectively more rare. Even scarcity can affect that if they design the game to have high barriers to access specific materials without having to delve into any RNG nonsense.
If you are truly arguing for the notion of unique as in a "one of a kind" object then the only way you obtain that is through player authored content, no integrated system using dev content will ever fulfill that type of "unique" status.
Also, I addressed cosmetics as part of this subject as far back as my first post.
"To make an item unique or special as a product of crafting can happen, so long as the crafting mechanics themselves allow for such variance. Material types, stat balancing through components/sub-components, appearance customization, etc.
It's only when you're talking about the banal form of crafting where you put specific items in and you get specific items out (or an item with a few quality ranges or chance to spawn a rare version) that you run into the struggle of making "special" items."
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
2) I craft 100 swords, but only 1 has +str attribute - there is only 1% chance to craft +str sword.
Wondering what is so difficult to understand about that...
How about you actually focus on what I am saying instead of repeating same nonsense over and over? That would actually allow for some constructive and sensible discussion...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me