All of those things are rather arbitrary. Some of them have become accepted conventions, but if a game says I need to talk to my instructor to continue on the path of mastery, it doesn't seem any less legitimate to me.
As to making mobs harder to encourage grouping - couldn't that be considered just as artificial as requiring a player to find a group to fight harder mobs in order to pass a trial?
As I said before, it wasn't talking to the instructor that I'd be against - it was funneling people to a quest mob/task to defeat or complete for advancement and putting on a new coat of paint and calling it a trial/right of passage when it is really just a mandatory quest.
And you're correct experience gain could be considered no different as a required form of progression, but experience gain doesn't force me to one linear path for advancement - I can choose the path (at least I hope Pantheon has multiple viable leveling paths).
This also doesn't even take into account the fact that there will be no instancing in Pantheon - what if your trial area is camped, taken, quest mob down, etc. If experience is the measure - I can get exp elsewhere if a zone is full.
Fair enough, but that could be rectified by having more than a single goal for a given class at a given level. Maybe at level 20 there are 5 potential quests, and maybe you are assigned one at random. It doesn't have to be so limited.
I also don't really consider a few trial quests to be a linear path. Those quests will probably account for less than 1% of the time you spend on your way to max level.
Point I'm getting at is that theres always something mandatory to progress. I don't really see how proving yourself to a trainer by completing a quest is any different.
I hope you do give the Trials idea a try Raidan. They were some of my earliest memories of fun and tough organized group activities at low levels. As opposed to just random exploration/xp parties. Not saying that couldnt be accomplished in other ways. But it was fun. Hardly any of it was instanced, and doesnt need to be. FFXI required grouping for most content, including xp, trials, and progression content (both lower and higher end). I definitely think a mix could work well. And Dullahan is right, its just a small part of your time compared to the vast majority actually leveling. Consider it a fun break in the monotony of the grind. And a challenge to your characters growth.
One concern I see from people against this idea is they dont want to be forced to drop from an XP party to go do a trial. Ive seen it in other games do it, but why not just allow character to store XP like a currency that had to be turned in. That way you wouldnt have to drop the XP party and could save the trial for another day.
I have no problem with the existence of a trial, I just prefer it to be in the scope of EQ epic quests - where they are optional, but you'd be missing out if you didn't complete it (them).
I dont have a problem with trials. But there needs to be a way for new players to get through them even after the general population is way past that. And I dont mean begging higher levels to carry you.
Basically, I enjoy the more sandbox feel even though I know Pantheon won't truly be a total sandbox (with defined classes, etc.).
I get that, and respect it. But yea I expect this to be more of a Sandpark or Themebox. So I think you can expect a decent mix between the 2 for better or worse.
I rather see trials be something for top level chars. Locking people out of content if they dont have the right team is fine, when you have an abundance of players. So making parts of the map for a set level and trails locking off parts of the map for higher level play means you will later get an inflow of higher level players coming back to re-explore and help lowbes. Nothing worse than having content in your face and not be able to do it because most of the community has passed by said zone.
After some thought, though Id rather it be blocking level progression. I could get behind the idea of it not restricting level progression, but in exchange it would need to be somewhat in the same theme. So how about making critical abilties part of it. Like an Enchanters mez or a Tanks main taunt, or a Bards mana regen song etc. Thoughts?
I'm posting again because I -so- agree with this thread. The single biggest problem with this though is convenience brings in the $$$. For some reason, people who desire interaction, or what -I- think of as interaction, are rare.
I'll give a couple examples of this below.
Some examples from Wurm Online... 1. Automatic versus manual flattening .... In the old way you had to dig the tile the right way and examine it to see if it was flat. You had to look at the tiles around it too. Generally, it felt like interaction to me. Then they introduced a digging script for flattening. This made it so you could flatten quicker. The details you had to be alert to were broader and fewer. While this mostly didn't bother me in the long run, a part of me died when I realized what I like isn't popular. 2. Collision with trees .... In the old way you could collide with trees. Mostly it wasn't a probelm when traveling, but sometimes there were thick olive groves which made it harder to navigate. I however liked this because I like traveling and having to functionally see my environment. But there was another reason I liked tree collision and it was because you could use it to climb steep slopes. It required some careful maneuvering--some skill. Then one day they removed collision. The players who complained about it rejoiced because now they could travel through the trees and their game would be fun again. I was mad and complained but it changed nothing. I know I'm not the only one who liked to use trees to climb slopes because someone else brought it up.
Generally this is a VERY common phenomenon. I don't quite understand WHY. I know I've been characterized as detail-oriented by some. I also know that I was explained as having potentially OCD personality or disorder--it was never clinically diagnosed. Wherever this comes from, it definitely makes me feel uncommon.
So am I a basket case? Probably. I was hopeless the day I was born. But does that mean my gaming preferences can be ignored? Perhaps, but if I can't find a game to play then I'll just make it. I've been a programmer for >20 years. Fortunately--or not?--there're lots of games I like. I don't need to make them. And Wurm Online--despite everything--is still an MMO I want to play. It's far from hopeless, even if I am.
Comments
I also don't really consider a few trial quests to be a linear path. Those quests will probably account for less than 1% of the time you spend on your way to max level.
Point I'm getting at is that theres always something mandatory to progress. I don't really see how proving yourself to a trainer by completing a quest is any different.
I hope you do give the Trials idea a try Raidan. They were some of my earliest memories of fun and tough organized group activities at low levels. As opposed to just random exploration/xp parties. Not saying that couldnt be accomplished in other ways. But it was fun. Hardly any of it was instanced, and doesnt need to be. FFXI required grouping for most content, including xp, trials, and progression content (both lower and higher end). I definitely think a mix could work well. And Dullahan is right, its just a small part of your time compared to the vast majority actually leveling. Consider it a fun break in the monotony of the grind. And a challenge to your characters growth.
One concern I see from people against this idea is they dont want to be forced to drop from an XP party to go do a trial. Ive seen it in other games do it, but why not just allow character to store XP like a currency that had to be turned in. That way you wouldnt have to drop the XP party and could save the trial for another day.
I have no problem with the existence of a trial, I just prefer it to be in the scope of EQ epic quests - where they are optional, but you'd be missing out if you didn't complete it (them).
I included a link to the rogue epic as reference:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Rogue_Epic_Quest
Or, here would be a link for a lower level quest:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Monk_Shackle_Quests
And, they wouldn't need to be weapons or gear, they could include skills, spells, etc.
Basically, I enjoy the more sandbox feel even though I know Pantheon won't truly be a total sandbox (with defined classes, etc.).
After some thought, though Id rather it be blocking level progression. I could get behind the idea of it not restricting level progression, but in exchange it would need to be somewhat in the same theme. So how about making critical abilties part of it. Like an Enchanters mez or a Tanks main taunt, or a Bards mana regen song etc. Thoughts?
I'll give a couple examples of this below.
Some examples from Wurm Online...
1. Automatic versus manual flattening
.... In the old way you had to dig the tile the right way and examine it to see if it was flat. You had to look at the tiles around it too. Generally, it felt like interaction to me. Then they introduced a digging script for flattening. This made it so you could flatten quicker. The details you had to be alert to were broader and fewer. While this mostly didn't bother me in the long run, a part of me died when I realized what I like isn't popular.
2. Collision with trees
.... In the old way you could collide with trees. Mostly it wasn't a probelm when traveling, but sometimes there were thick olive groves which made it harder to navigate. I however liked this because I like traveling and having to functionally see my environment. But there was another reason I liked tree collision and it was because you could use it to climb steep slopes. It required some careful maneuvering--some skill. Then one day they removed collision. The players who complained about it rejoiced because now they could travel through the trees and their game would be fun again. I was mad and complained but it changed nothing. I know I'm not the only one who liked to use trees to climb slopes because someone else brought it up.
Generally this is a VERY common phenomenon. I don't quite understand WHY. I know I've been characterized as detail-oriented by some. I also know that I was explained as having potentially OCD personality or disorder--it was never clinically diagnosed. Wherever this comes from, it definitely makes me feel uncommon.
So am I a basket case? Probably. I was hopeless the day I was born. But does that mean my gaming preferences can be ignored? Perhaps, but if I can't find a game to play then I'll just make it. I've been a programmer for >20 years. Fortunately--or not?--there're lots of games I like. I don't need to make them. And Wurm Online--despite everything--is still an MMO I want to play. It's far from hopeless, even if I am.