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Release = beta. 6-12 months later = actual release.

DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,231
I can't be the only one who's beyond sick of the state of a release version, which has become ~50% of the final game. These days, only once all the DLC and "enhanced editions" are released several months later - can we begin to talk about a game being finished.

I'm not talking about MMOs here, by the way - as they're naturally unfinished by nature.

Sure, we've always had buggy releases - and waiting a month or two for the patches isn't a new concept.

But, these days, even the most polished and stable games feel unfinished for months after release. It's like release means beta - and we're just getting early access to a game that may or may not end up being much better.

What can we do about it?

Do we all have to stand together and outright refuse to buy these half-done "pre-order" versions and wait for a sale 6-12 months later?

Comments

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,291
    I personally vote with my wallet. 

    I generally wont pay for early access / beta access as that is encouraging bad behaviour in developers. Only game I've paid for early access is prison architect, but I did my research before hand to ensure the game was playable and worth the money. 

    I also won't pay for games that rely heavily on DLCs / episodic content. For example, I love the hitman games so wanted the latest one but I disagree with the episodic nature of it. So, I won't buy it until the game is actually finished and I can buy it all in one hit. 


    As with everything though, it comes down to value for money and ethics. I have relatively high standards, so betas / early access / dlcs etc I don't think are good value for money, so 99% of the time I wont pay for it. I don't know if I'm in a minority or not, but clearly enough people approve of these monetisation methods to make them worthwhile. 



    But yeh, voting with your wallet is pretty much all we can do. The only other thing that might be possible is somehow being able to create enough bad press about specific developers that they are shamed into releasing full games. However, that's a lot of effort and not reliable. Hell, EA got voted worst company in America a few years running but they just shrugged it off. 
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    This is true, the thing is (at least for me) there are so many games I've yet to play for this exact reason, I pretty much have an endless stream of new titles to pick up as complete editions become available. Finish one, there's another right around the corner. Hence why my Steam, Origin and GOG libraries grow larger and larger. Which are filled with games I've yet to play through as well. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,231
    I'm very much guilty of buying unfinished games as well, and I'm not a saint by any stretch of the imagination.

    But I think I'm getting to the point where I'm simply going to stop buying anything but the most desirable games at release.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,366
    What can we do about it?

    We can actually have some self-respect and how companies accountable for the product they sell.  Every time we excuse crap because we want a game like they promise, or they are a small company, the bar of what is acceptable gets lowered even more.

    Every time you hear someone start to defend a game with the old "It's an MMO and MMO's are never finished!!" argument you should start running for the exit...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    What can we do about it?

    We can actually have some self-respect and how companies accountable for the product they sell.  Every time we excuse crap because we want a game like they promise, or they are a small company, the bar of what is acceptable gets lowered even more.

    Every time you hear someone start to defend a game with the old "It's an MMO and MMO's are never finished!!" argument you should start running for the exit...

    What do you mean by hold them accountable though? Once you've paid you've already excused them, be it Kickstarting, paying a sub or paying the box fee..

    Anything else you do is pretty much inconsequential to the company, words are just hot-air, they mean little if you're filling the coffer. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,366
    Distopia said:
    What can we do about it?

    We can actually have some self-respect and how companies accountable for the product they sell.  Every time we excuse crap because we want a game like they promise, or they are a small company, the bar of what is acceptable gets lowered even more.

    Every time you hear someone start to defend a game with the old "It's an MMO and MMO's are never finished!!" argument you should start running for the exit...

    What do you mean by hold them accountable though? Once you've paid you've already excused them, be it Kickstarting, paying a sub or paying the box fee..

    Anything else you do is pretty much inconsequential to the company, words are just hot-air, they mean little if you're filling the coffer. 
    To an extent, but what I mean is that we need to stop excusing the crap they are selling (and actually in many cases defending it!)  If a company can push out a pile of poop and still be supported (financially through purchases, subs or cash shop) as well as morally supported by people trying to talk others into supporting their game... the next guy down the line will shoot even lower for his deliverable.

    Most companies do not live just off of 1 time pre-order sales.  They need people to keep paying and they need new players.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,231
    Distopia said:
    What can we do about it?

    We can actually have some self-respect and how companies accountable for the product they sell.  Every time we excuse crap because we want a game like they promise, or they are a small company, the bar of what is acceptable gets lowered even more.

    Every time you hear someone start to defend a game with the old "It's an MMO and MMO's are never finished!!" argument you should start running for the exit...

    What do you mean by hold them accountable though? Once you've paid you've already excused them, be it Kickstarting, paying a sub or paying the box fee..

    Anything else you do is pretty much inconsequential to the company, words are just hot-air, they mean little if you're filling the coffer. 
    To an extent, but what I mean is that we need to stop excusing the crap they are selling (and actually in many cases defending it!)  If a company can push out a pile of poop and still be supported (financially through purchases, subs or cash shop) as well as morally supported by people trying to talk others into supporting their game... the next guy down the line will shoot even lower for his deliverable.

    Most companies do not live just off of 1 time pre-order sales.  They need people to keep paying and they need new players.  

    I don't think it's fair to call it a pile of poop.

    To me, it's painfully clear that it's a suit-driven business model. Developers are working hard to deliver the best that they can - and the suits do what suits do, they monetize.

    The problem is that we, the consumers, have accepted this splitting up of products - and the piecemeal delivery.

    It's not that the release version isn't worth playing - because usually it is, it's that it's obviously incomplete.

    The only way to break that business model is to make it "not worthwhile" - and I fear that's absolutely impossible, because the majority has no impulse control.

    Really, the exploitation of bad impulse control is the heart of the issue - and I see no clear way around it.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,020
    My experience is quite the opposite. I played the original of pillars of eternity and witcher 3 which felt like full games on their own. When I bought the dlc it felt like additional material instead of things that were cut out.

    I played dark souls 3 which has a season pass and I loved the base game, the season pass is likely to be some additional content. While I wasn't fond of fallout 4 it felt like a full game as well (got it for 33% off so don't feel that bad about it). From my friends I hear that Far Harbor is worthy additional content. I plan to get xcom2 which worked on its own, mixed reception for their season pass so I will skip on that.

    I usually don't care about season pass anyway, if the game doesn't feel like a full release I won't pay them full price for it. I don't need to play things on day 1 because I do more than just play games.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Poor games come in all forms: crowdfunded, paid alphas, early access betas and even those completed and launched.

    In recent years, I feel like the risk of disappointment is as high for games I bought "complete" as those I crowdfunded or bought early access to.


  • Eadan1Eadan1 Member UncommonPosts: 344
    Why should anyone buy a game when they can get a patched up game, with DLCs and expansions for 50% of the price in a year or two? Or even for 10% of the price 5 years later? That's a clear indication gaming has gone to shit for me, people need to be tricked to buy games that aren't worth 10% of the asking price in reality.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Eadan1 said:
    Why should anyone buy a game when they can get a patched up game, with DLCs and expansions for 50% of the price in a year or two? Or even for 10% of the price 5 years later? 
    That's basically what I was getting at in my initial post. I rarely purchase brand new games, there are exceptions, I will usually pick up a Bethesda game early on as an example, I never feel fleeced due to the open nature of those games. Those exceptions are few and far between. 

    As an RPG and RTS player, the back catalog is quite large, so many games/expansions I've yet to purchase/play. Even many things I have purchased I've barely scratched the surface of yet. Most of these games you quite simply get a better deal if you wait, and play games that are already complete. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    I have so many games in my library now to work through that I don't need to buy EA or Day 1. I haven't bought FO4, Grim Dawn, Life Is Strange, or Torment yet. For AAA titles I usually wait until there is a complete edition of the game. For indie titles it just depends.

    So I'm not really sick or frustrated with how the games are released. It offers options for people who want in now and options for those who don't. If you're library is small and you're just waiting for a specific release I can get the frustration but I'm not in that boat.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    Firstly, I doubt anyone on this site tried to "vote" with their wallet as much as I've tried, and it does make difference. We've received more free to play products because of that, but we haven't received more quality ones that cost more than $15 monthly fee for access on start. So, it's also about luck, someone to show up there who has the resources, talent and determination to deliver what I and many others been waiting for a very long time. Good part is with more mediocre products, the chances of someone to be successful are greater, as well as the longer people are unhappy and bored with what's out there the more they will get engaged in making it themselves as well.

    Bottom line, best thing anyone can do to not screw themselves is wait out for the dust to settle, at least 1-2 months after a product is released. I mean, look at the latest, big releases that came in this market ArcheAge and Black Desert. Prior to release they both seemed AMAZING, but after release ArcheAge was destroyed by Trion management, while Black Desert was destroyed by cheating/hacking, and if anyone can be smiling at this is Blizzard themselves.

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  • SyanisSyanis Member UncommonPosts: 131
    I'll agree this is a big problem and in pretty much any game genre but effects mmorpg's the worst. By the time the game is actually fixed and really finished its 6-12 months after release and already starting to die off a bit and a new person who didn't want to jump into a half finished buggy game is at a serious disadvantage because they are so far behind everyone else. You either jump in when its new or you miss the boat even if its seriously leaky.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,784
    I'm going to go ahead an point the finger at F2P being the foundation for this behavior. F2P enables games that would otherwise fail and shut down to sometimes live and sometimes even thrive because they rely on a smaller number of paying customers than games in the past.

    So when the bar gets so low, it's okay to release unfinished games, esp as F2P because there will be a small group who love it anyway and dump money into it, and then a bunch of free players who don't really care for it but will show up because it's free for them.

    We've essentially taken away the ability for failure from many of these studios. And while we happily proclaim games to be "failures" they are often financially stable or successful because they're built up on a model that allows failure to succeed.

    And like DKLond said, the majority has poor impulse control so it will continue happening.
  • KabaalKabaal Member UncommonPosts: 3,042
    "These days"

    It's not a new phenomenon.
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