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Fully destructible environment vs. Tunneling

FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
edited June 2016 in Chronicles of Elyria
On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
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  • krulerkruler Member UncommonPosts: 589
    On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

    If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
    now that is a very good question, well spotted I didnt notice that in the goals myself, what on earth would be the difference, apart from tunnels maybe lasting longer, a build feature if you will.

  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    edited June 2016
    kruler said:
    On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

    If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
    now that is a very good question, well spotted I didnt notice that in the goals myself, what on earth would be the difference, apart from tunnels maybe lasting longer, a build feature if you will.
    Yea, as you say I guess it has something to do with underground buildings and being able to solidify/reinforce the tunnel so it doesn't collapse after a while.

    I just checked the update about stretch goals:

    "Tunneling
    This is our system for creating underground grottoes, caverns, mining shafts, etc. It's one of our favorite systems and we're looking forward to adding it to the world. However, it was deemed a painful but possible cut as it's non-essential to have underground lairs, etc. *On Poll*

    Terraforming is different from tunneling as it involves the change in actual terrain, rather than the addition of tunnels. Honestly, we think tunneling is cooler than straight terraforming. This was cut to keep us under $900k and as we favor tunneling over terraforming it's um.. (Not considered for voting)"

    With a fully destructible world (promised for $900,000), I guess players should already be able to create grottoes, caverns and change the terrain, since that's pretty much what "fully destructible environment" is about I guess.

  • DrakenhoffDrakenhoff Member UncommonPosts: 301
    I don't believe they mean the terrain I think the fully destructable is more like the trees, buildings etc.
    I understand this seems confusing and not exactly what most people would consider fully destructable.

    Btw this is my thoughts and no way confirmed.

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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    I don't believe they mean the terrain I think the fully destructable is more like the trees, buildings etc.
    I understand this seems confusing and not exactly what most people would consider fully destructable.

    Btw this is my thoughts and no way confirmed.
    Well if they advertise it as a fully destructible environment (e.g. Minecraft, Landmark, Life is Feudal, etc.) and it's just the trees, objects and buildings that can be destroyed, imo it's pretty misleading.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I don't believe they mean the terrain I think the fully destructable is more like the trees, buildings etc.
    I understand this seems confusing and not exactly what most people would consider fully destructable.

    Btw this is my thoughts and no way confirmed.
    I would agree with that. Although in a pure sense 'fully destructible would mean pretty much like a  100% voxel game or something like Wurm but in general I think the word is used to describe what you have said all the way to something like Wurm

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  • DrakenhoffDrakenhoff Member UncommonPosts: 301
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case

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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'

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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'
    Pretty sure that "fully destructible world" and "fully destructible environment", both used in the first lines of the Kickstarter page, are not open to interpretation.

    If the terrain is not destructible, the world therefore isn't fully destructible.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,228
    Do you really want a 100% fully destructible world? I know folks who would do their utmost to destroy it.

    Also you guys just have to stop blindly accepting developer promises.  I know for most this isn't your first rodeo.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,810

    With a fully destructible world (promised for $900,000), I guess players should already be able to create grottoes, caverns and change the terrain, since that's pretty much what "fully destructible environment" is about I guess.

    Why not just accept their definition of what "fully destructible environment" is and what tunneling is?


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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    edited June 2016
    Kyleran said:
    Do you really want a 100% fully destructible world? I know folks who would do their utmost to destroy it.
    The thread is more about what is promised for $900,000 (fully destructible world/environment) vs. what the studio then picked as $1,750,000 stretch goal (tunnels, digging) and the apparent contradiction between the 2.

    (if the fully destructible environment is already in the game at $900,000, why create a $1,750,000 stretch goal to get digging / tunnels, which is the expected consequence of a "fully destructible environment" in the first place)
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'
    Pretty sure that "fully destructible world" and "fully destructible environment", both used in the first lines of the Kickstarter page, are not open to interpretation.

    If the terrain is not destructible, the world therefore isn't fully destructible.
    Unless you can find an independent (and widely accepted) definition of "fully destructible world", then it remains open to interpretation. In my experience, the scope of "fully destructible" is usually determined by the developer, who is the one that has to implement it.

    I'll bet in the case of CoE that definition applies to "above ground objects", as it does in most MMO's that have destructible environments. It may stretch to include shallow craters at the most. Terrain deformation is not a big feature in most MMO's, because it has all sorts of negative performance impacts.

    But the tunneling system described in CoE is actually a creative feature, not destructive. It creates game space where there wasn't any before, and would allow for a variety of emergent game play. It also includes mechanics such as "supporting the ceiling with buttresses", which implies that there's a degree of simulation of RL systems included.
  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'
    Pretty sure that "fully destructible world" and "fully destructible environment", both used in the first lines of the Kickstarter page, are not open to interpretation.

    If the terrain is not destructible, the world therefore isn't fully destructible.
    Unless you can find an independent (and widely accepted) definition of "fully destructible world", then it remains open to interpretation. In my experience, the scope of "fully destructible" is usually determined by the developer, who is the one that has to implement it.
    fully: completely or entirely
    destructible: able to be destroyed
    world: the fictional universe associated with a game
    environment: the air, water and land in or on which people/animals/plants live

    Example of game with fully destructible environment: Minecraft.
  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    Sovrath said:

    With a fully destructible world (promised for $900,000), I guess players should already be able to create grottoes, caverns and change the terrain, since that's pretty much what "fully destructible environment" is about I guess.

    Why not just accept their definition of what "fully destructible environment" is and what tunneling is?


    I see no definition of "fully destructible environment" on the Kickstarter page. Only promises that the game will feature "fully destructible environment" and "fully destructible world".
  • st4t1ckst4t1ck Member UncommonPosts: 768
    On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

    If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
    Destructible world is not teraforming.  You cant change the land mass,  Destructible meaning anything that is created can be destroyed, theres not "starter" towns, so any city, town, keep, castle, can be destroyed.   Tunneling will give you access to change the ground some what, but still isnt tera forming.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    I don't believe they mean the terrain I think the fully destructable is more like the trees, buildings etc.
    I understand this seems confusing and not exactly what most people would consider fully destructable.

    Btw this is my thoughts and no way confirmed.
    Well if they advertise it as a fully destructible environment (e.g. Minecraft, Landmark, Life is Feudal, etc.) and it's just the trees, objects and buildings that can be destroyed, imo it's pretty misleading.

    It is just a matter of terminology.  They mean THIS.  Others mean something else.  Some games have done it one way.  IF YOU ASSUMED, that is your baggage.
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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    st4t1ck said:
    On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

    If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
    Destructible world is not teraforming.  You cant change the land mass,  Destructible meaning anything that is created can be destroyed, theres not "starter" towns, so any city, town, keep, castle, can be destroyed.   Tunneling will give you access to change the ground some what, but still isnt tera forming.
    Fully destructible world / environment is different from "anything created by players can be destroyed".
  • lunawisplunawisp Member UncommonPosts: 184
    I'd hate to see a fully destructible world, the avenues that would open up for endless griefing would be immense. I imagine (hope) they mean that anything a player can create can also be destroyed. Maybe they should have been clearer about it...to keep the nitpickers happy...
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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited June 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'
    Pretty sure that "fully destructible world" and "fully destructible environment", both used in the first lines of the Kickstarter page, are not open to interpretation.

    If the terrain is not destructible, the world therefore isn't fully destructible.

    no you are wrong and sorry to say but an example of a naive purchaser. Its not clear, its not specific, it is very open although not vague its not clear and it needs to be and I might add this is a good example of why i do not donate to kickstarters but I play the hell out of early access games

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  • FranciscourantFranciscourant Member UncommonPosts: 356
    waynejr2 said:
    I don't believe they mean the terrain I think the fully destructable is more like the trees, buildings etc.
    I understand this seems confusing and not exactly what most people would consider fully destructable.

    Btw this is my thoughts and no way confirmed.
    Well if they advertise it as a fully destructible environment (e.g. Minecraft, Landmark, Life is Feudal, etc.) and it's just the trees, objects and buildings that can be destroyed, imo it's pretty misleading.

    It is just a matter of terminology.  They mean THIS.  Others mean something else.  Some games have done it one way.  IF YOU ASSUMED, that is your baggage.
    It's not an assumption and there's no ambiguity in the terminology. They promise a fully destructible world / environment on their Kickstarter page. Not a partially destructible world where only objects created by players can be destroyed. There would be no reason to use the adverb "fully" and it would be misleading I guess.
  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,152
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think that was the initial hope that it was be 100% destructable. Maybe they should change thst part of their marketing if it's not the case
    Well it was not only the initial hope, it's a feature that was promised less than a month ago for the Kickstarter campaign, and a feature that people pledged money for.

    Fully destructible world/environment would mean that the game allows players to destroy the ground too. Otherwise it's just the normal destruction of buildings we get in many MMOs.

    At this point I think they can't really change the marketing, there's only 1 day left to the KS campaign.
    I dont agree.

    Unless the developer explicitly stated what 'destructible environment' means exactly then donators are just being emos who are not taking personal responsibility.

    Do you always watch a show when the add said 'best this season'
    Pretty sure that "fully destructible world" and "fully destructible environment", both used in the first lines of the Kickstarter page, are not open to interpretation.

    If the terrain is not destructible, the world therefore isn't fully destructible.

    no you are wrong and sorry to say but an example of a naive purchaser. Its not clear, its not specific, it is very open although not vague its not clear and it needs to be.
    UE4 does not have destructible terrain. And they have not in any way hinted at destructible terrain. In order to make fully destructible terrain with the unreal engine you would have to completely remove all the terrain code and replace it with some home made solution. That within itself is a massive undertaking and many teams of people have already attempted this (even teams that spec in this) and have nothing to show for it after almost 2 years of work.

    So if you are expecting COE to have fully destructible terrain then you are in for a very sad reality check.

    I am more inclined to think they mean destructible objects like trees, bushes, stuff like that. That stuff is super easy to pull off in UE4 as it does that out of the box with no work needed.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    st4t1ck said:
    On the Kickstarter page, it's written that the world of CoE will be fully destructible. So by fully destructible I guess that they mean the ground too.

    Does anyone know what is the difference between the fully destructible world promised for $900,000, and the $1,750,000 tunneling stretch goal?

    If the world is fully destructible, shouldn't players be able to dig underground and create tunnels anyway?
    Destructible world is not teraforming.  You cant change the land mass,  Destructible meaning anything that is created can be destroyed, theres not "starter" towns, so any city, town, keep, castle, can be destroyed.   Tunneling will give you access to change the ground some what, but still isnt tera forming.
    and this is why I say its not clear enough on a kickstarter page if all they say is 'destructible world' because its already debatable never mind a judges face of disbelief that their years in law school relegated them to listening to a lawyer explain the difference.

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  • st4t1ckst4t1ck Member UncommonPosts: 768
    Whoever reads past the first line would find out what the game is about,  if you backed the game from reading only that line of kickstarter im sorry for you and you should get your money back.   I've never understood destructible world as able to tera form the land.  ark is a destructible world to me, and obviously to the creators of this game
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited June 2016
    st4t1ck said:
    Whoever reads past the first line would find out what the game is about,  if you backed the game from reading only that line of kickstarter im sorry for you and you should get your money back.   I've never understood destructible world as able to tera form the land.  ark is a destructible world to me, and obviously to the creators of this game
    Ark is not what I personally would consider a 'fully destructible world' you cant even dig down or into a cliff to build a base. 

    this is why the term is rather non-specific. having said that those who are unhappy should....ask for a refund...before complaining about it. or rather to the degree that its a terrible offense

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