Well that's very contrary to modern data about MMO retention rates. My hypothesis is that studies would that leveling loses its allure the more you do it. It might feel cool the first, second or even third time you level a character but once you fall into a pattern of doing it over and over across many games it kills the allure of it.
Or you know .. it could be that most modern MMO's are not "Good games with Engaging Environments" so, whatever that amounts to.. they didn't have it.
Or maybe they are trying to reach too broad an audience, and failing 94% of the time.
Or maybe they are doing stupid stuff like putting Open World PvP, into a game while trying to advertise towards PvE players.
@ZionBane - The ambiguity of those terms is the point of their usage. Games are a form of art and their quality is determined by the audience as any form of art.
Hmm well i am not sure how to word this but ill try.
That statement is most certainly true,i cannot deny that but it does not cover the topic of RATING an art form based on some criteria and NOT just YOUR personal preferences.
I believe most people have a very good understanding of ART however many do not understand how easy /cheap or difficult some game design systems are to make.
My point is that even an art form can be rated on a simplistic level ,example sheer beauty/colors/detail etc etc.
Well the same goes for gaming but if you understand MOST of the design areas and work that goes into them,you can decipher the quality of a game.
There are two areas of topic with games,preferences which will ALWAYS vary from person to person and actual EFFORT/DEPTH and overall quality,the technical side.
My long winded point is that just because you consider a game good "as an art form"or preferences,that is NOT how i rate games.I also OFTEN get the feeling that people think if i mention ONE aspect of a game i consider to be done better than other games,they are ASSUMING that i think that game is flawless and not without bad design areas.So i guess some people just like to be angry on a SIMPLISTIC term.If i or anyone says something bad about THEIR preference game they get all huffy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"@ZionBane - The ambiguity of those terms is the point of their usage. Games are a form of art and their quality is determined by the audience as any form of art."
Hmm well i am not sure how to word this but ill try.
That statement is most certainly true,i cannot deny that but it does not cover the topic of RATING an art form based on some criteria and NOT just YOUR personal preferences.
Actually it does. It's right in the wording used. "The audience." I'm not the OP of this topic. I'm not the only person to agree with this topic. I wasn't one of the 14 people to hit agree on the topic I made in my signature before the forums reset.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
What I'm also not part of is the echo chamber present in the MMO industry where the same few mechanics repeated over and over and over have driven off everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the same game model over and over and "GTFO of our MMORPGs!!!!!!" is considered an acceptable thing to say to anyone who disagrees with how things are going and wants change.
I actually do believe there is a market and an audience for an MMO based on exactly what I want based on the numerous number of people who get really excited when they read my ideas.
What I know for certain though, is there is a substantial market for something much closer to what I want.
What I also know is anyone blaming the fall of MMOs on Open World PvP has their head stuck so far into the sand I'm surprised they haven't suffocated yet. The amount of money that's gone into developing Open World PvP games currently on the market is completely negligible compared to what's been invested into failed WoW clone after failed WoW clone.
@ZionBane - The ambiguity of those terms is the point of their usage. Games are a form of art and their quality is determined by the audience as any form of art.
Hmm well i am not sure how to word this but ill try.
That statement is most certainly true,i cannot deny that but it does not cover the topic of RATING an art form based on some criteria and NOT just YOUR personal preferences.
I believe most people have a very good understanding of ART however many do not understand how easy /cheap or difficult some game design systems are to make.
My point is that even an art form can be rated on a simplistic level ,example sheer beauty/colors/detail etc etc.
Well the same goes for gaming but if you understand MOST of the design areas and work that goes into them,you can decipher the quality of a game.
There are two areas of topic with games,preferences which will ALWAYS vary from person to person and actual EFFORT/DEPTH and overall quality,the technical side.
My long winded point is that just because you consider a game good "as an art form"or preferences,that is NOT how i rate games.I also OFTEN get the feeling that people think if i mention ONE aspect of a game i consider to be done better than other games,they are ASSUMING that i think that game is flawless and not without bad design areas.So i guess some people just like to be angry on a SIMPLISTIC term.If i or anyone says something bad about THEIR preference game they get all huffy.
This reminds me when Heart of Thorns was released for GW2, I could see the work, effort and care that was put into crafting the expansion, and no doubt that it was top notch work, very detailed, and all in all, an accomplishment to be proud of.... however, I simply hated playing it.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
This made a laugh a bit, only because I was just joking with a friend about ARK Survival Evolved, and how it had 5 million subscriptions, and I cracked the joke "You just know some developer is gonna look at that and say "You know what people want... Dinosaur Mounts!"
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
This is just another PERFECT example of why PVP DOES NOT BELONG IN MMORPGs. I am like most people (PVEers) who DO enjoy a level enhancing or char. enhancing grind. It IS part of your progression. The ones' who DONT like it are the "quick to cap" PVP lovers. AGAIN, I wish you well in your FPS game, but GTFO of our MMORPGs!!!!!!
First, it's not your genre.
Second, this thread is not about the current existing audience of MMORPGs, but the potential audience of MMORPGs.
Third, it's not about whether a game has progression or not. Its about whether the standard solo-quest-grind-xp-progression system employed by most MMORPGs is good or bad for the genre.
Nobody is denying that there is a significant audience for the standard themepark design. There is clearly money to be made catering to that market. But, surely more is possible? Can we not have AAA themeparks and AAA sandboxes? Can we not have solo and group based games?
I'm one of those who rushes the leveling process in order to reach end game. I try to skip the leveling process because:
It's too easy - by clinging onto single player mechanics (vertical progression), you create massive power gaps. Devs then have to balance content around the lowest common demoninator, resulting in trivial content.
The writing is piss poor - computer games are a bad medium for telling stories, MMOs are the worst. I've never played an MMO with well written stories. You might get the occasional good story line, but most quests are badly written and the gameplay doesn't match the story.
Its linear - again, this is a hangover from single player games. The leveling process is too linear, so I'm forced to complete it all or risk getting stuck.
Its solo orientated - the nature of vertical progression and linear content means everything has to be balanced around solo players. If it were group focused then you'd be too reliant on a constant stream of new players.
The progression is mostly an illusion - every level, my stats go up, I gain new skills and new gear. My character is "stronger". However, all enemies also get stronger, so relative power stays the same. Typically, there are only 5-10 points during the leveling process where you character experiences meaningful progression, usually via obtaining a new significant skill that changes the way you play.
All these things combine to make the leveling process nearly unbearable for me and players like me. Again, this is a personal preference and doesn't take anything away from what you enjoy. The market is big enough to support both types of games. Devs can keep building games like WoW, ESO, SW:TOR etc, it would just be nice if some of the devs wanted to build modern versions of SWG.
The data is there to support these types of games / mechanics that we're advocating. We have data from other genres supporting the notion of horizontal progression and the popularity of PvP. We have psychological research showing that social connections are some of the strongest motivators and would drastically increase retention. There is then a ton of research / designs that show alternatives to standard themepark design.
All we need now is one AAA western dev to take that leap of faith.
All that aside, I am truly wondering how do you propose to motivate players to invest their time into a game, that does not reward the time they invested into the game?
By making a game that rewards them with additional player skill should they seek it and get this... fun.
I realise that's a pretty novel concept but that's actually why you're supposed to play games. Because they are fun. Not because they promise to be fun, eventually, if you grind long enough.
A truly good game needs no reason beyond its existence and the enjoyment you receive from actually playing the game to keep you playing it.
So your idea for player retention is to make a game that is totally fleeting in its entertainment value.
Good luck with that.
I play MMOs for progression primarily and am quite willing to perform a variety of not so "fun" activities to accomplish the goals I am striving for...
Of course that's why I gravitate towards MMOs with territory and resource control as the goals are more concrete than just playing for a gear upgrade or to appear on a leaderboard.
@Kyleran- So in other words leveling and character progression could be entirely replaced with city building, the development of economic infrastructure, and acquiring diplomatic power / military might on the group level and you would still find the game engaging.
You seem to want the exact same thing I do without realizing it.
We actually do after reading your ArcheAge update. Endless level grinds to keep up hold no appeal but I don't mind grinding for gold/resources to help build an empire.
EVE is perfect for me as the progression happens relentlessly in the background allowing me to focus on other matters.
The skill cap system means I've been extremely competitive for a very long time, and now I train largely for the heck of it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All personal opinion. You have no data to prove the majority hate level grind. I disagree and In my circles the majority of gamers enjoy the grind. Just saying.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
All personal opinion. You have no data to prove the majority hate level grind. I disagree and In my circles the majority of gamers enjoy the grind. Just saying.
True, but we do have data showing that an average of 75% of players quit during the first month and that a slightly higher percent never even reach the level cap. So, thats the majority of the playerbase that quits having only been exposed to the core level grind and never having experienced endgame.
Developers have tried varying key mechanics experienced during the level grind, such as styles of combat, frequency of levels, different ways of implementing classes and skills, different ways of presenting quests (voice overs or text), guide and unguided quests etc. None of these have made a difference.
Of course, changing the way the main game loop works is no guarantee of increased retention. Data from the single player world shows retention is much the same - a month after release, only 20-30% of players are still playing the game at all. Only difference is single player games don't care about retention, but MMOs rely on it.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
2. The difference in a survival game is if I sneak up on you with your glock and bash your head in with my rock, now I have a glock, and you have a rock.
For me at least, that is the one scenario that vertical progression is quite acceptable. When you can be reset all the way from the top back down to the same point as anybody else.
In a Full Loot PvP game bad decisions and risking too valuable of gear too frequently is punished hard. In a game such as ArcheAge you can go out in your best gear all the time and die as many times as you want and your defeats will bring you no closer in power to your opponents, because the consequences are negligible.
This essentially means if you decide to use your super expensive gear to fight newbs with nothing of much value to loot you can be punished very hard for it.
Case and point. This is my newb EVE account I made for some PvP in cheap ships.
It has lost 80.78 million in ships. It has participated in the destruction of 4.5 billion isk in ships giving it a 98.2% ISK efficiency rating.
I guarantee you the people that fought against my newb account in the multi-million ISK ships did not find it to be a worthwhile investment of their resources.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
I have yet to play an MMO that includes Level grind into their "battle arena's" case in Point GW2, Cap Leveled Everyone (IE: You go in at 80th level with Full Access to all skills and Abilities), and gave them the same access to gear, for their sPvP Arena Matches... Yet... in GW2, sPvP tanked hard, where MOBA's are still going strong...
This is just another PERFECT example of why PVP DOES NOT BELONG IN MMORPGs. I am like most people (PVEers) who DO enjoy a level enhancing or char. enhancing grind. It IS part of your progression. The ones' who DONT like it are the "quick to cap" PVP lovers. AGAIN, I wish you well in your FPS game, but GTFO of our MMORPGs!!!!!!
Perfect, any more broad generalizations you want to throw around? Or baseless opinions? Because that is the way to get people to take you seriously, spout your opinions as fact and generalize everything. How about you throw out some unquantifiable data next? Like 90% of all PvPers are gankers with a tiny penis who live in basements and can't breed unless they roofy their right hand How about you take your whiny ass out of our PvP games? Just you, not all people that prefer PvE, just the specific ones that feel the need to play PvP games then whine to high heaven when they get their ass beat. Dry your tears and move along. There are plenty of PvE games out there that don't require you to have to fight another player at all.
So you know, FPS is not synonymous with PvP, while it is hugely popular with PvP players, that doesn't mean that is all there is. Also, You do not speak for the entire PvE community.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
I have yet to play an MMO that includes Level grind into their "battle arena's" case in Point GW2, Cap Leveled Everyone (IE: You go in at 80th level with Full Access to all skills and Abilities), and gave them the same access to gear, for their sPvP Arena Matches... Yet... in GW2, sPvP tanked hard, where MOBA's are still going strong...
I have yet to play an MMO that DIDN'T have some kind of progression based disparity in their arenas. While the WoW arena brackets with their twinks are the absolute worst example almost every MMO with arena PvP has some kind of "PvP gear" that makes it so that incoming players have to get stomped by vets over and over and over and over to get points to eventually get the gear to become a vet themselves.
This is just another PERFECT example of why PVP DOES NOT BELONG IN MMORPGs. I am like most people (PVEers) who DO enjoy a level enhancing or char. enhancing grind. It IS part of your progression. The ones' who DONT like it are the "quick to cap" PVP lovers. AGAIN, I wish you well in your FPS game, but GTFO of our MMORPGs!!!!!!
Perfect, any more broad generalizations you want to throw around? Or baseless opinions? Because that is the way to get people to take you seriously, spout your opinions as fact and generalize everything. How about you throw out some unquantifiable data next? Like 90% of all PvPers are gankers with a tiny penis who live in basements and can't breed unless they roofy their right hand How about you take your whiny ass out of our PvP games? Just you, not all people that prefer PvE, just the specific ones that feel the need to play PvP games then whine to high heaven when they get their ass beat. Dry your tears and move along. There are plenty of PvE games out there that don't require you to have to fight another player at all.
So you know, FPS is not synonymous with PvP, while it is hugely popular with PvP players, that doesn't mean that is all there is. Also, You do not speak for the entire PvE community.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
I have yet to play an MMO that includes Level grind into their "battle arena's" case in Point GW2, Cap Leveled Everyone (IE: You go in at 80th level with Full Access to all skills and Abilities), and gave them the same access to gear, for their sPvP Arena Matches... Yet... in GW2, sPvP tanked hard, where MOBA's are still going strong...
I have yet to play an MMO that DIDN'T have some kind of progression based disparity in their arenas. While the WoW arena brackets with their twinks are the absolute worst example almost every MMO with arena PvP has some kind of "PvP gear" that makes it so that incoming players have to get stomped by vets over and over and over and over to get points to eventually get the gear to become a vet themselves.
also GW2 PvP died because it was small scale pvp. Meaning it was harder to balance compared to large group sizes. Same reason 1v1 duels arent balanced in WoW, because its impossible to do that. The smaller the scale of the group size the harder it is to balance.
Also the game lacks game modes. Since everything was pretty much the same game mode just with a different map.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
I have yet to play an MMO that includes Level grind into their "battle arena's" case in Point GW2, Cap Leveled Everyone (IE: You go in at 80th level with Full Access to all skills and Abilities), and gave them the same access to gear, for their sPvP Arena Matches... Yet... in GW2, sPvP tanked hard, where MOBA's are still going strong...
I have yet to play an MMO that DIDN'T have some kind of progression based disparity in their arenas. While the WoW arena brackets with their twinks are the absolute worst example almost every MMO with arena PvP has some kind of "PvP gear" that makes it so that incoming players have to get stomped by vets over and over and over and over to get points to eventually get the gear to become a vet themselves.
Progression is key to RPGs regardless of your thoughts on the matter. If you don't like progression you don't like RPGs including mmoRPGs. So your tiny points about progression in mobas are you just grandstanding the bit you hate about RPGs.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Just because you like something doesn't mean I like it. Some people enjoy fishing. Some people enjoy playing chess. Both of these things are monotonous by nature and yet they have endured longer than any of us have been alive. To suggest that a game is flawed because of x is to say that you do not like x... nothing more need to be said.
People bash WoW every single day and yet it is still here... whether we like it or not. Why? Because someone enjoys it. Just like someone enjoys chess or fishing. Try and kill it all you like. Try and dissect it to explain why it has failed for you. When it comes down to it, you either like it or you don't. People aren't forced to fish anymore than they are forced to play chess. They don't go around explaining why chess or fishing isn't fun to them because they don't participate in it. Strange how you can separate yourself from chess or fishing but not MMORPGS.
As much as people complain about this genre... the fact remains, if you have a beef with it, you still play them. And if you still play them, they will continue to exist. If you hate fishing, you're not going to keep heading to the fishing pond and say to yourself, today is going to be different, today fishing is going to be fun.
Reality my friend, you're trying to convince the world when you can't even convince yourself.
Progression is key to RPGs regardless of your thoughts on the matter. If you don't like progression you don't like RPGs including mmoRPGs. So your tiny points about progression in mobas are you just grandstanding the bit you hate about RPGs.
Roleplaying is the key to RPGs regardless of your thoughts on the matter. That's why they are called role playing games. True RPGs create features that are condusive to immersion and roleplay. Progression was introduced to help facilitate roleplay. In a game where the entire party advances through challenges together and there is someone creating custom challenges for the party it worked out great.
Taken from that format and applied to a game where you are meant to experience an entire world and and there isn't someone holding your hand through it we've now gathered PLENTY of evidence as to how the end result works.
Progression causes the majority of players to rush through the content needed to reach the "endgame" as fast as possible. People skip over quests, power level through enemies, even pay money to skip the leveling process entirely when the option is given.
The MMO culture it has bred is one which on the whole despises roleplay and makes fun of those who engage in it. Funnily enough the roleplay culture in MMOs tends to be odd groups that step back from the leveling process and instead focus nearly entirely on the social aspects of the game instead as social interactions don't give XP (Like they did in the original tabletop RPGs) and MMO progression separates players based upon level (Unlike the original tabletop RPGs.)
The issue is that I want an MMORPG. A game where hundreds or thousands of players can immerse themselves in a world meant to facilitate immersion and roleplay. Not the bastard offspring of RPGs that the MMOs on the market currently are. And it's been pretty conclusively proven at this point that making a true RPG in an MMO universe would require a dramatic overhaul of how progression works in order to take it from the primary purpose of the game back to the side feature it was always meant to be.
It needs to be slowed down to a point that:
1. Quests are never rendered obsolete and the player never feels pushed to plow through quests as fast as possible to reach some point of progression. The enjoyment of the quest and fulfilment of it story should be the main purpose of doing a quest.
2. Player interaction is always enjoyable and immersive. There is never a point where one player reaches a level so godlike that other players find their attacks ping off of them harmlessly while they themselves will be one shot. Nor is there a point where a player finds that when they run content with another player their attacks/healing are so weak in comparison they seem to offer no value to the party at all.
3. There is never anywhere in the world a high level character can go that they don't have to at least pay attention in combat. If you can stand there afk and watch all enemy attacks just ping off of you while your character one shots everything with auto attack, immersion has been broken.
In other words, the focus should be put back on ROLE PLAY.
Just because you like something doesn't mean I like it. Some people enjoy fishing. Some people enjoy playing chess. Both of these things are monotonous by nature and yet they have endured longer than any of us have been alive. To suggest that a game is flawed because of x is to say that you do not like x... nothing more need to be said.
People bash WoW every single day and yet it is still here... whether we like it or not. Why? Because someone enjoys it. Just like someone enjoys chess or fishing. Try and kill it all you like. Try and dissect it to explain why it has failed for you. When it comes down to it, you either like it or you don't. People aren't forced to fish anymore than they are forced to play chess. They don't go around explaining why chess or fishing isn't fun to them because they don't participate in it. Strange how you can separate yourself from chess or fishing but not MMORPGS.
As much as people complain about this genre... the fact remains, if you have a beef with it, you still play them. And if you still play them, they will continue to exist. If you hate fishing, you're not going to keep heading to the fishing pond and say to yourself, today is going to be different, today fishing is going to be fun.
Reality my friend, you're trying to convince the world when you can't even convince yourself.
So many arguments in so many forums are EXACTLY like this. WHY do we go into Dairy Queen and then complain it's not like Denny's or Taco Bell? (We usually don't. Newflash: If we don't like it, we to to Denny's or Taco Bell instead. Options are good.) How can we accept that Fishing can be boring to a lot of people but we can't accept an MMORPG can be boring to a lot of people?
I think we CAN accept an MMORPG can be boring to a lot of people. BUT constant confrontation with those we disagree with causes us to dwell on our differences. This happens frequently (maybe uniquely) in public/open forums, where people will bump into others they disagree with routinely. Others aren't just easily ignored names or faces, they're thread titles and angry posts. Unless you perma-ignore every poster you disagree with, you're going to be continually exposed to it.
It can also happen a MMO or MMORPG we liked changes to something we don't like and this in turn causes us to feel frustration years after, making it hard to "let go". People fail to move on for a time. Some quit playing MMO's.
What's the answer? Know when to walk away. Don't fan the flames.
Just because you like something doesn't mean I like it. Some people enjoy fishing. Some people enjoy playing chess. Both of these things are monotonous by nature and yet they have endured longer than any of us have been alive. To suggest that a game is flawed because of x is to say that you do not like x... nothing more need to be said.
People bash WoW every single day and yet it is still here... whether we like it or not. Why? Because someone enjoys it. Just like someone enjoys chess or fishing. Try and kill it all you like. Try and dissect it to explain why it has failed for you. When it comes down to it, you either like it or you don't. People aren't forced to fish anymore than they are forced to play chess. They don't go around explaining why chess or fishing isn't fun to them because they don't participate in it. Strange how you can separate yourself from chess or fishing but not MMORPGS.
As much as people complain about this genre... the fact remains, if you have a beef with it, you still play them. And if you still play them, they will continue to exist. If you hate fishing, you're not going to keep heading to the fishing pond and say to yourself, today is going to be different, today fishing is going to be fun.
Reality my friend, you're trying to convince the world when you can't even convince yourself.
So many arguments in so many forums are EXACTLY like this. WHY do we go into Dairy Queen and then complain it's not like Denny's or Taco Bell? (We usually don't. Newflash: If we don't like it, we to to Denny's or Taco Bell instead. Options are good.) How can we accept that Fishing can be boring to a lot of people but we can't accept an MMORPG can be boring to a lot of people?
If what I wanted to play existed I would be playing it.
I like open persistent worlds with hundreds or thousands of players. I don't like doing boring/repetitive content for hundreds or even thousands of hours in order to get access to the content I want to be doing or to overcome severe disadvantages is competitive based simply upon character stats.
So it's more like in a pre-fast food salads world asking: "I like the idea of fast cheap food made ready to order but why don't you make anything healthy?" and people responding "If you don't like greasy carb loaded crap you have no business buying fast food! Just go back to your sit down restaurants!"
However now that we've found a place in our hometown that makes a 6$ salad loaded with protein (We've actually determined we couldn't made the same salad at home for much if at all cheaper) you can get to-go in under five minutes we eat there like 3-4 times a week. We go to other fast food places maybe once every 2 months.
Just like if there was an MMO that offered what I love about MMOs without the parts I hate about it, our household would sink a minimum of 30$ a month into it and probably stop playing any other MMOs.
I thojght that's what you'd say. I wondered if a segment of the population doesn't have options. We're not all the same, so not everybody can find what they want all the time. Good news is if there're enough like you then you'll find something.
It's like me. I like open world PvP/PvE. Many people don't. In fact, some people think ti's impossible for those to go together. Believe me, they can. It's like Jurassic Park. Life finds a way. We're not carbon copies of each other.
I think people like me would have multiple options if the MMO market was more like other markets. The problem with the MMO market is the diversity of options is much smaller than in any other market.
Poor market diversity has turned into dogmatic beliefs on non-existent criteria you MUST meet to be a "true" MMORPG. Now the entire market has fallen into a cycle of being an echo chamber. The vast majority of people who can't stand WoW style MMOs have left the market because they would rather play a MOBA or a survival game than the same old MMO over and over even if a more unique MMO would fit their preferences better.
The WoW fanboys are left to create an echo chamber of what MMOs should be like, which results in even more WoW style MMOs.
We'll never get good MMOs that appeal to more than one audience so long as we listen to the same old people who have been cheerleading the decline of MMOs.
I am 100% convinced that if someone created an MMO that shifted emphasis from progression to immersion that there would be a huge market for it. It's just that your primary market for that MMO is comprised largely of people who have already given up on MMOs, and thus aren't represented on sites like this.
I like to level. I don't like it being excessively standardized such as scaling etc. PvP should stay in FPSs or a dedicated area of the game for it like BGs etc.
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Or maybe they are trying to reach too broad an audience, and failing 94% of the time.
Or maybe they are doing stupid stuff like putting Open World PvP, into a game while trying to advertise towards PvE players.
Hmm well i am not sure how to word this but ill try.
That statement is most certainly true,i cannot deny that but it does not cover the topic of RATING an art form based on some criteria and NOT just YOUR personal preferences.
I believe most people have a very good understanding of ART however many do not understand how easy /cheap or difficult some game design systems are to make.
My point is that even an art form can be rated on a simplistic level ,example sheer beauty/colors/detail etc etc.
Well the same goes for gaming but if you understand MOST of the design areas and work that goes into them,you can decipher the quality of a game.
There are two areas of topic with games,preferences which will ALWAYS vary from person to person and actual EFFORT/DEPTH and overall quality,the technical side.
My long winded point is that just because you consider a game good "as an art form"or preferences,that is NOT how i rate games.I also OFTEN get the feeling that people think if i mention ONE aspect of a game i consider to be done better than other games,they are ASSUMING that i think that game is flawless and not without bad design areas.So i guess some people just like to be angry on a SIMPLISTIC term.If i or anyone says something bad about THEIR preference game they get all huffy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And I'm not one of the millions of players who has migrated from the MMORPG genre to other titles such as MOBAs, survival games, RTS titles, and FPS titles that lack progression.
What I'm also not part of is the echo chamber present in the MMO industry where the same few mechanics repeated over and over and over have driven off everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the same game model over and over and "GTFO of our MMORPGs!!!!!!" is considered an acceptable thing to say to anyone who disagrees with how things are going and wants change.
I actually do believe there is a market and an audience for an MMO based on exactly what I want based on the numerous number of people who get really excited when they read my ideas.
What I know for certain though, is there is a substantial market for something much closer to what I want.
What I also know is anyone blaming the fall of MMOs on Open World PvP has their head stuck so far into the sand I'm surprised they haven't suffocated yet. The amount of money that's gone into developing Open World PvP games currently on the market is completely negligible compared to what's been invested into failed WoW clone after failed WoW clone.
Truth is, MOBA's are attractive for what they offer, and in case anyone missed this, their sale point, is "team based PvP combat", not to be confused with "lack of progress"
Even in a survival game, if you live long enough you will far outstrip what a starting player has, they have a rock you have a glock... think about that...
Second, this thread is not about the current existing audience of MMORPGs, but the potential audience of MMORPGs.
Third, it's not about whether a game has progression or not. Its about whether the standard solo-quest-grind-xp-progression system employed by most MMORPGs is good or bad for the genre.
Nobody is denying that there is a significant audience for the standard themepark design. There is clearly money to be made catering to that market. But, surely more is possible? Can we not have AAA themeparks and AAA sandboxes? Can we not have solo and group based games?
I'm one of those who rushes the leveling process in order to reach end game. I try to skip the leveling process because:
- It's too easy - by clinging onto single player mechanics (vertical progression), you create massive power gaps. Devs then have to balance content around the lowest common demoninator, resulting in trivial content.
- The writing is piss poor - computer games are a bad medium for telling stories, MMOs are the worst. I've never played an MMO with well written stories. You might get the occasional good story line, but most quests are badly written and the gameplay doesn't match the story.
- Its linear - again, this is a hangover from single player games. The leveling process is too linear, so I'm forced to complete it all or risk getting stuck.
- Its solo orientated - the nature of vertical progression and linear content means everything has to be balanced around solo players. If it were group focused then you'd be too reliant on a constant stream of new players.
- The progression is mostly an illusion - every level, my stats go up, I gain new skills and new gear. My character is "stronger". However, all enemies also get stronger, so relative power stays the same. Typically, there are only 5-10 points during the leveling process where you character experiences meaningful progression, usually via obtaining a new significant skill that changes the way you play.
All these things combine to make the leveling process nearly unbearable for me and players like me. Again, this is a personal preference and doesn't take anything away from what you enjoy. The market is big enough to support both types of games. Devs can keep building games like WoW, ESO, SW:TOR etc, it would just be nice if some of the devs wanted to build modern versions of SWG.The data is there to support these types of games / mechanics that we're advocating. We have data from other genres supporting the notion of horizontal progression and the popularity of PvP. We have psychological research showing that social connections are some of the strongest motivators and would drastically increase retention. There is then a ton of research / designs that show alternatives to standard themepark design.
All we need now is one AAA western dev to take that leap of faith.
EVE is perfect for me as the progression happens relentlessly in the background allowing me to focus on other matters.
The skill cap system means I've been extremely competitive for a very long time, and now I train largely for the heck of it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Developers have tried varying key mechanics experienced during the level grind, such as styles of combat, frequency of levels, different ways of implementing classes and skills, different ways of presenting quests (voice overs or text), guide and unguided quests etc. None of these have made a difference.
Of course, changing the way the main game loop works is no guarantee of increased retention. Data from the single player world shows retention is much the same - a month after release, only 20-30% of players are still playing the game at all. Only difference is single player games don't care about retention, but MMOs rely on it.
1. Why do people seek out MOBAs for team based combat? Many MMOs have arenas that fill the same general need. Is it possibly because progression ruins PvP?
2. The difference in a survival game is if I sneak up on you with your glock and bash your head in with my rock, now I have a glock, and you have a rock.
For me at least, that is the one scenario that vertical progression is quite acceptable. When you can be reset all the way from the top back down to the same point as anybody else.
In a Full Loot PvP game bad decisions and risking too valuable of gear too frequently is punished hard. In a game such as ArcheAge you can go out in your best gear all the time and die as many times as you want and your defeats will bring you no closer in power to your opponents, because the consequences are negligible.
This essentially means if you decide to use your super expensive gear to fight newbs with nothing of much value to loot you can be punished very hard for it.
Case and point. This is my newb EVE account I made for some PvP in cheap ships.
It has lost 80.78 million in ships. It has participated in the destruction of 4.5 billion isk in ships giving it a 98.2% ISK efficiency rating.
I guarantee you the people that fought against my newb account in the multi-million ISK ships did not find it to be a worthwhile investment of their resources.
How about you take your whiny ass out of our PvP games? Just you, not all people that prefer PvE, just the specific ones that feel the need to play PvP games then whine to high heaven when they get their ass beat. Dry your tears and move along. There are plenty of PvE games out there that don't require you to have to fight another player at all.
So you know, FPS is not synonymous with PvP, while it is hugely popular with PvP players, that doesn't mean that is all there is. Also, You do not speak for the entire PvE community.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Also the game lacks game modes. Since everything was pretty much the same game mode just with a different map.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Progression is key to RPGs regardless of your thoughts on the matter. If you don't like progression you don't like RPGs including mmoRPGs. So your tiny points about progression in mobas are you just grandstanding the bit you hate about RPGs.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Just because you like something doesn't mean I like it. Some people enjoy fishing. Some people enjoy playing chess. Both of these things are monotonous by nature and yet they have endured longer than any of us have been alive. To suggest that a game is flawed because of x is to say that you do not like x... nothing more need to be said.
People bash WoW every single day and yet it is still here... whether we like it or not. Why? Because someone enjoys it. Just like someone enjoys chess or fishing. Try and kill it all you like. Try and dissect it to explain why it has failed for you. When it comes down to it, you either like it or you don't. People aren't forced to fish anymore than they are forced to play chess. They don't go around explaining why chess or fishing isn't fun to them because they don't participate in it. Strange how you can separate yourself from chess or fishing but not MMORPGS.
As much as people complain about this genre... the fact remains, if you have a beef with it, you still play them. And if you still play them, they will continue to exist. If you hate fishing, you're not going to keep heading to the fishing pond and say to yourself, today is going to be different, today fishing is going to be fun.
Reality my friend, you're trying to convince the world when you can't even convince yourself.
Taken from that format and applied to a game where you are meant to experience an entire world and and there isn't someone holding your hand through it we've now gathered PLENTY of evidence as to how the end result works.
Progression causes the majority of players to rush through the content needed to reach the "endgame" as fast as possible. People skip over quests, power level through enemies, even pay money to skip the leveling process entirely when the option is given.
The MMO culture it has bred is one which on the whole despises roleplay and makes fun of those who engage in it. Funnily enough the roleplay culture in MMOs tends to be odd groups that step back from the leveling process and instead focus nearly entirely on the social aspects of the game instead as social interactions don't give XP (Like they did in the original tabletop RPGs) and MMO progression separates players based upon level (Unlike the original tabletop RPGs.)
The issue is that I want an MMORPG. A game where hundreds or thousands of players can immerse themselves in a world meant to facilitate immersion and roleplay. Not the bastard offspring of RPGs that the MMOs on the market currently are. And it's been pretty conclusively proven at this point that making a true RPG in an MMO universe would require a dramatic overhaul of how progression works in order to take it from the primary purpose of the game back to the side feature it was always meant to be.
It needs to be slowed down to a point that:
1. Quests are never rendered obsolete and the player never feels pushed to plow through quests as fast as possible to reach some point of progression. The enjoyment of the quest and fulfilment of it story should be the main purpose of doing a quest.
2. Player interaction is always enjoyable and immersive. There is never a point where one player reaches a level so godlike that other players find their attacks ping off of them harmlessly while they themselves will be one shot. Nor is there a point where a player finds that when they run content with another player their attacks/healing are so weak in comparison they seem to offer no value to the party at all.
3. There is never anywhere in the world a high level character can go that they don't have to at least pay attention in combat. If you can stand there afk and watch all enemy attacks just ping off of you while your character one shots everything with auto attack, immersion has been broken.
In other words, the focus should be put back on ROLE PLAY.
I think we CAN accept an MMORPG can be boring to a lot of people. BUT constant confrontation with those we disagree with causes us to dwell on our differences. This happens frequently (maybe uniquely) in public/open forums, where people will bump into others they disagree with routinely. Others aren't just easily ignored names or faces, they're thread titles and angry posts. Unless you perma-ignore every poster you disagree with, you're going to be continually exposed to it.
It can also happen a MMO or MMORPG we liked changes to something we don't like and this in turn causes us to feel frustration years after, making it hard to "let go". People fail to move on for a time. Some quit playing MMO's.
What's the answer? Know when to walk away. Don't fan the flames.
I like open persistent worlds with hundreds or thousands of players. I don't like doing boring/repetitive content for hundreds or even thousands of hours in order to get access to the content I want to be doing or to overcome severe disadvantages is competitive based simply upon character stats.
So it's more like in a pre-fast food salads world asking: "I like the idea of fast cheap food made ready to order but why don't you make anything healthy?" and people responding "If you don't like greasy carb loaded crap you have no business buying fast food! Just go back to your sit down restaurants!"
However now that we've found a place in our hometown that makes a 6$ salad loaded with protein (We've actually determined we couldn't made the same salad at home for much if at all cheaper) you can get to-go in under five minutes we eat there like 3-4 times a week. We go to other fast food places maybe once every 2 months.
Just like if there was an MMO that offered what I love about MMOs without the parts I hate about it, our household would sink a minimum of 30$ a month into it and probably stop playing any other MMOs.
It's like me. I like open world PvP/PvE. Many people don't. In fact, some people think ti's impossible for those to go together. Believe me, they can. It's like Jurassic Park. Life finds a way. We're not carbon copies of each other.
Poor market diversity has turned into dogmatic beliefs on non-existent criteria you MUST meet to be a "true" MMORPG. Now the entire market has fallen into a cycle of being an echo chamber. The vast majority of people who can't stand WoW style MMOs have left the market because they would rather play a MOBA or a survival game than the same old MMO over and over even if a more unique MMO would fit their preferences better.
The WoW fanboys are left to create an echo chamber of what MMOs should be like, which results in even more WoW style MMOs.
We'll never get good MMOs that appeal to more than one audience so long as we listen to the same old people who have been cheerleading the decline of MMOs.
I am 100% convinced that if someone created an MMO that shifted emphasis from progression to immersion that there would be a huge market for it. It's just that your primary market for that MMO is comprised largely of people who have already given up on MMOs, and thus aren't represented on sites like this.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.