The meaning of P2W seems to have shifted over time (or at least some people state it has). Please select the option which most closely resembles YOUR definition of P2W
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LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
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playing an MMORPG?"
The meaning of P2W seems to have shifted over time (or at least some people state it has). Please select the option which most closely resembles YOUR definition of P2W
The definition of P2W has never really changed, but what people consider as a fair/unfair advantage will always fluctuate. P2W is just a simple description of the microtransaction business model.
Being able to buy anything, any amount of times that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage, even though i play it BDO has P2W aspects. The problem with the question, is you must first define pay 2 win. More and More games that come out dont really have a win, but a 'advantage' or 'foot up' , but, if something can be bought using r/l £ regardless of whether it can be earnt in game its considered p2w for me The line in sand, is immediate V earnt
What do you mean by items?, cosmetic, mounts, outfits? P2W is items that you only can buy for IRL money that will BOOST your stats so your toon has better stats than those who dont buy sead items such as weapons, armour, special potions ect.
Buy XP potions, storage space, char slots ect is not P2W due to It's convenient items that don't really affect overall gameplay that much, you still endup in same player level field in the end only that the one who bought for an example a xp potion gets there faster.
Paying real money to buy an in game advantage is p2w, but not all p2w is particularly "bad" and much also depends on how the game is set up.
For example being able to buy in game currency with real cash and then buy all the best gear and items in a pvp game with large power/gear gaps (ie most mmos) is one of the most extreme forms of p2w imo, while buying a basic mount with cash in most mmos would be rather mild p2w that has limited impact on the game but might greatly enhance player convenience.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.
The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.
Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.
I would agree with a lot of this but what about being able to buy resources for cash? That isn't DIRECTLY combat related but maybe it helps you:
Not have to spend time farming/gathering but focus on developing those combat skills
Be able to sell those resources for in game weapons/armor that affect combat
Use to pay other people to fight with/for you
etc...
The first one isn't P2win, the second can be (depending on the game, in some games are good items BOP while in others are everything for sale as well as it depends on how much gear matters in the game, in GW1 for example this would not matter at all). The third isn't p2win, more something like paying for friends....
Anyways, lets not complicate things too much. We need a clear and easy to understand defination so you simply can say if a game is p2win or not. If you start add a zillion exceptions it will become very complicated and people will disagre.
1 short sentence or it will be too complicated.
How about this. Time = Money. If money by-passes the time needed in game, is it P2W?
P2W for me is when one can buy Enchants Dmg Boost no Cd Hp Potion from cash shop which reduce your chance to win in a fair fight 1 vs 1.
Silkroad was P2W Allods Online with runes that cost 30k $ pay to win
On the other hand we have CoE which gives away title for cash some call it P2W I think your just jelly as Being King baron Land owner will not affect in any way you combat skills . King for perma death must die 5 times yes he have guards but we peasants can riot around few hundred of times before we get perma death . I relate CoE with our real world social ladder .... I in my society I am no one just as 95 % of you all .
To me P2W is related only to combat advantages that directly affect outcome of a fair fight 1v1 But even this is useless because out of 10 fights 9 fights will be 2 vs 1 me so it's all useless . PVPer are an aggressive crowd with lack of bookish nerdish knight honor .so all the p2w concept is BULL SHIT
Poll results made me sad so many jelly people)))) when come to gay pride every one scream out loud not your business let them be when some one have opportunity to buy some crap like house horse every one rage xD I'm concerned of P2W only in cases when it directly affects me .
Also I think outrageous P2W scream mostly come from PvP junkies which are worst kind of gamers so what ever xD
It was inevitable that the definition of P2W would become so blurred as to render it meaningless.
Developers want to sell advantage to players, and there's a large group of players that want to buy advantage. So both camps have been rolling-out justifications and tricky arguments to remove the stigma of "paying for advantage".
The theory of "being able to pay to catch-up to longtime players" is complete BS, because there are no longtime players on launch day. But there almost instantly WILL be people you need to "catch-up to" when they drop $500 in the Cash Shop on launch day...
The other favourite saw is "it's not P2W if you can earn it via game play". Just look at how THAT's been perverted, lol. Sure, you can grind for 3 hours and get one of item X, but Mr. Walletwarrior over there can buy as many as he wants or needs at any time.
But it's no use wining about P2W, it's here to stay, either get with the program or tune to another station...
I am fine with bag space, cosmetical stuff and $15 optional subs since its an alternative to P2P. I'm not fine with cash shops having consumables, items with stats and similar stuff. Publishers will try to sneak in this stuff in their collectors editions as well, aion wings, rift mount, tera mount, level 90 char for pre-order.
If you put a cash shop in your game so players can trade money for less gametime I usually cut down my gametime to ZERO so I don't have to play your shit game.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Not necessarily. For me it is any game that gives one player a huge advantage over another. An example, Allods Online, where you had to buy 'Perfume' in the CS and this makes it easier to kill other players, in PvP zones, w/o the perfume. You had to spend money in the CS to even be competitive in PvP - that is P2W. Also, you could buy the best armor in the CS also.
Getting some extra exp does not mean P2W, not all the time.
Look at the player base as a whole. Look at who are the ones who are dominating in important aspects of the game. Then look how they got there. Did they become a "big dog" through time and commitment or was it because of the Cash Shop? That's how you determine if a game is P2W.
Any payment at all beyond the standard rate which allows your character to do more than another character, or advance at a rate quicker than another character, who is paying the standard rate.
In other words, if the game is F2P, but paying $15 a month gives your character access to all aspects of the game and/or subscriber perks such as extra XP, then that's not P2W. That's simply the standard rate for access to the game.
If, however, after paying the standard rate there are still items which can be purchased to speed up gameplay or give your character an advantage otherwise unavailable to a subscriber, then it's P2W.
EVE Online allows a player to spend money to purchase monthly subscription chits, these chits can then be sold to other in game players for any amount that both players agree upon. This is not P2W as the wealth used to purchase them had to be generated by someone. It's simply a shift of wealth for the ability to keep playing. Having more monthly subscription chits doesn't mean you can advance any faster, it just means you can play for longer.
EVE Online now also has introduced skill injectors which allow a player to purchase another player's skill points and inject them into themselves, thereby bypassing years of skill training. This is P2W as now character advancement has been introduced into the picture. If a character can pay real money to advance faster than other characters, then that's P2W no matter how, or what form it comes in.
Look at the player base as a whole. Look at who are the ones who are dominating in important aspects of the game. Then look how they got there. Did they become a "big dog" through time and commitment or was it because of the Cash Shop? That's how you determine if a game is P2W.
Highly competitive people will usually use any means at their disposal to "be on top".
That would include making use of advantages bought via the Cash Shop. Some would even pay for advantages gained by illegal means...
If you're a casual player, spending in the CS will enable you to keep up with those who don't spend, but play 8 hours a day.
But you've no hope in hell of keeping-up with those who spend in the CS AND play 8 hours a day...
"if you can buy something for RL cash that gives you an advantage over those who did not spend the money."
you do NOT get an advantage if there is no direct competition in that field tho (eg, instanced dungeons and having extra stats don't give you an advantage over another player, rather over mobs).
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I would say anything that allows you to circumvent the natural intended progression of the game. For example, multiple currencies (think gold and gems) tend to allow a more fair F2P environment IMO. Cosmetics, pets, XP boosts (within reason), bank / bag space, mounts, etc, can all make great store items. For me at least, I draw the line at buying resets and lockout resets directly from the store. Those types of things (if you insist on having them) are better left to the alternate currency. This would give those without 500$ a month to spend a fair chance at obtaining them via gold to alt currency conversion.
I find most PWE games to be a great example of what not to do. As long as you're spending real money, you can remove any intended time sinks from the game. Progression over time is important in MMOs. On the flip-side of things, I find I have very little reason to purchase anything at all from the store in GW2. I find DDO to be a comfortable medium, though. The convenience of XP boosts and basic starter gear items are compelling while the truly powerful things, such as past lives, are only available through time invested.
you do NOT get an advantage if there is no direct competition in that field tho (eg, instanced dungeons and having extra stats don't give you an advantage over another player, rather over mobs).
Wrong.
There is ALWAYS competition between players, unless you're talking about a single-player game.
You will be in a party with other players in that "instanced dungeon".
What is the best way to not be rejected when groups form-up for dungeon runs ? Having good gear and extra stats !
And what usually determines loot drops in MMO's ? DPS and still being alive when the loot drops ? Good gear and better stats inevitably improve your chances over the player who hasn't bought them...
Look at the player base as a whole. Look at who are the ones who are dominating in important aspects of the game. Then look how they got there. Did they become a "big dog" through time and commitment or was it because of the Cash Shop? That's how you determine if a game is P2W.
Highly competitive people will usually use any means at their disposal to "be on top".
That would include making use of advantages bought via the Cash Shop. Some would even pay for advantages gained by illegal means...
If you're a casual player, spending in the CS will enable you to keep up with those who don't spend, but play 8 hours a day.
But you've no hope in hell of keeping-up with those who spend in the CS AND play 8 hours a day...
I agree completely. But what I am saying is....Is it possible for committed players to grind and still compete in certain areas of game play without relying on RMT and keep up with those who do rely on RMT? I don't care how much time they have to put in (Assuming the rate of game progression doesn't outpace the ability to grind it). As long as those who chose to, can. The only way for sure to determine this is to look at who's actually on top. Are there any/many who played hard to get there? If not, the game is P2W.
For me, Pay-To-Win is the ability to simply pay real money to obtain/attain any item/status that would, or could, otherwise be obtained in-game through doing actual content. That applies to anything, be it gameplay related, or even cosmetic. For someone who enjoys collecting outfits, or pets, or what-have-you, obtaining those things is a kind of "win" for them, and simply dropping $ on it is a way to bypass playing the game to earn it. So even there, it's P2W.
you do NOT get an advantage if there is no direct competition in that field tho (eg, instanced dungeons and having extra stats don't give you an advantage over another player, rather over mobs).
Wrong.
There is ALWAYS competition between players, unless you're talking about a single-player game.
You will be in a party with other players in that "instanced dungeon".
What is the best way to not be rejected when groups form-up for dungeon runs ? Having good gear and extra stats !
And what usually determines loot drops in MMO's ? DPS and still being alive when the loot drops ? Good gear and better stats inevitably improve your chances over the player who hasn't bought them...
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
you do NOT get an advantage if there is no direct competition in that field tho (eg, instanced dungeons and having extra stats don't give you an advantage over another player, rather over mobs).
Wrong.
There is ALWAYS competition between players, unless you're talking about a single-player game.
You will be in a party with other players in that "instanced dungeon".
What is the best way to not be rejected when groups form-up for dungeon runs ? Having good gear and extra stats !
And what usually determines loot drops in MMO's ? DPS and still being alive when the loot drops ? Good gear and better stats inevitably improve your chances over the player who hasn't bought them...
actually, i am not wrong.
if you talk about the hunt for first kills here, yes, those 5% of the players are not the rule tho. but even if you are a "pro" gamer, your loot is NOT influenced by other raid's items.
if you think that, i seriously wonder how the code to achieve this feature would look like, bc quite frankly, it would be complicated as hell to parse out every players' items, and calculate them into YOUR loot table.
also, the drop chances of other players or their loot do NOT influence your loot... again.
the examples you named above are (i'd guess) taken from WoW, and yes, you won't take people with low lvl equip to raids. if you can buy items with stats... those games are usualy concidered pay to win. agreed.
but the item lvl of OTHERS do not influence me in any other way but pvp. the minumum item lvl requirement of a game to do certain things... different story.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
For me, its any advantage purchased with cash that either can't be gotten at all by normal means or can't be overcome without cash in a "reasonable" manner.
However, "reasonable" is an arbitrary line in the sand and will change from person to person. I personally don't play F2P games or anything resembling P2W, so my arbitrary line in the sand is very strict, the only times I've faced it is when sub games that I was playing (lotro, swtor) converted to f2p.
Comments
There is no definition of pay to win other than what you personally make it.
There term is bullshit.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The definition of P2W has never really changed, but what people consider as a fair/unfair advantage will always fluctuate. P2W is just a simple description of the microtransaction business model.
What do you mean by items?, cosmetic, mounts, outfits?
P2W is items that you only can buy for IRL money that will BOOST your stats so your toon has better stats than those who dont buy sead items such as weapons, armour, special potions ect.
Buy XP potions, storage space, char slots ect is not P2W due to It's convenient items that don't really affect overall gameplay that much, you still endup in same player level field in the end only that the one who bought for an example a xp potion gets there faster.
For example being able to buy in game currency with real cash and then buy all the best gear and items in a pvp game with large power/gear gaps (ie most mmos) is one of the most extreme forms of p2w imo, while buying a basic mount with cash in most mmos would be rather mild p2w that has limited impact on the game but might greatly enhance player convenience.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
VG
Silkroad was P2W
Allods Online with runes that cost 30k $ pay to win
On the other hand we have CoE which gives away title for cash some call it P2W I think your just jelly as Being King baron Land owner will not affect in any way you combat skills .
King for perma death must die 5 times yes he have guards but we peasants can riot around few hundred of times before we get perma death .
I relate CoE with our real world social ladder ....
I in my society I am no one just as 95 % of you all .
To me P2W is related only to combat advantages that directly affect outcome of a fair fight 1v1
But even this is useless because out of 10 fights 9 fights will be 2 vs 1 me so it's all useless .
PVPer are an aggressive crowd with lack of bookish nerdish knight honor .so all the p2w concept is BULL SHIT
Poll results made me sad so many jelly people)))) when come to gay pride every one scream out loud not your business let them be when some one have opportunity to buy some crap like house horse every one rage xD
I'm concerned of P2W only in cases when it directly affects me .
Also I think outrageous P2W scream mostly come from PvP junkies which are worst kind of gamers so what ever xD
Developers want to sell advantage to players, and there's a large group of players that want to buy advantage. So both camps have been rolling-out justifications and tricky arguments to remove the stigma of "paying for advantage".
The theory of "being able to pay to catch-up to longtime players" is complete BS, because there are no longtime players on launch day. But there almost instantly WILL be people you need to "catch-up to" when they drop $500 in the Cash Shop on launch day...
The other favourite saw is "it's not P2W if you can earn it via game play". Just look at how THAT's been perverted, lol. Sure, you can grind for 3 hours and get one of item X, but Mr. Walletwarrior over there can buy as many as he wants or needs at any time.
But it's no use wining about P2W, it's here to stay, either get with the program or tune to another station...
If you put a cash shop in your game so players can trade money for less gametime I usually cut down my gametime to ZERO so I don't have to play your shit game.
Not necessarily. For me it is any game that gives one player a huge advantage over another. An example, Allods Online, where you had to buy 'Perfume' in the CS and this makes it easier to kill other players, in PvP zones, w/o the perfume. You had to spend money in the CS to even be competitive in PvP - that is P2W. Also, you could buy the best armor in the CS also.
Getting some extra exp does not mean P2W, not all the time.
In other words, if the game is F2P, but paying $15 a month gives your character access to all aspects of the game and/or subscriber perks such as extra XP, then that's not P2W. That's simply the standard rate for access to the game.
If, however, after paying the standard rate there are still items which can be purchased to speed up gameplay or give your character an advantage otherwise unavailable to a subscriber, then it's P2W.
EVE Online allows a player to spend money to purchase monthly subscription chits, these chits can then be sold to other in game players for any amount that both players agree upon. This is not P2W as the wealth used to purchase them had to be generated by someone. It's simply a shift of wealth for the ability to keep playing. Having more monthly subscription chits doesn't mean you can advance any faster, it just means you can play for longer.
EVE Online now also has introduced skill injectors which allow a player to purchase another player's skill points and inject them into themselves, thereby bypassing years of skill training. This is P2W as now character advancement has been introduced into the picture. If a character can pay real money to advance faster than other characters, then that's P2W no matter how, or what form it comes in.
That would include making use of advantages bought via the Cash Shop. Some would even pay for advantages gained by illegal means...
If you're a casual player, spending in the CS will enable you to keep up with those who don't spend, but play 8 hours a day.
But you've no hope in hell of keeping-up with those who spend in the CS AND play 8 hours a day...
you do NOT get an advantage if there is no direct competition in that field tho (eg, instanced dungeons and having extra stats don't give you an advantage over another player, rather over mobs).
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I find most PWE games to be a great example of what not to do. As long as you're spending real money, you can remove any intended time sinks from the game. Progression over time is important in MMOs. On the flip-side of things, I find I have very little reason to purchase anything at all from the store in GW2. I find DDO to be a comfortable medium, though. The convenience of XP boosts and basic starter gear items are compelling while the truly powerful things, such as past lives, are only available through time invested.
There is ALWAYS competition between players, unless you're talking about a single-player game.
You will be in a party with other players in that "instanced dungeon".
What is the best way to not be rejected when groups form-up for dungeon runs ? Having good gear and extra stats !
And what usually determines loot drops in MMO's ? DPS and still being alive when the loot drops ? Good gear and better stats inevitably improve your chances over the player who hasn't bought them...
For me, Pay-To-Win is the ability to simply pay real money to obtain/attain any item/status that would, or could, otherwise be obtained in-game through doing actual content. That applies to anything, be it gameplay related, or even cosmetic. For someone who enjoys collecting outfits, or pets, or what-have-you, obtaining those things is a kind of "win" for them, and simply dropping $ on it is a way to bypass playing the game to earn it. So even there, it's P2W.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
if you talk about the hunt for first kills here, yes, those 5% of the players are not the rule tho.
but even if you are a "pro" gamer, your loot is NOT influenced by other raid's items.
if you think that, i seriously wonder how the code to achieve this feature would look like, bc quite frankly, it would be complicated as hell to parse out every players' items, and calculate them into YOUR loot table.
also, the drop chances of other players or their loot do NOT influence your loot... again.
the examples you named above are (i'd guess) taken from WoW, and yes, you won't take people with low lvl equip to raids. if you can buy items with stats... those games are usualy concidered pay to win. agreed.
but the item lvl of OTHERS do not influence me in any other way but pvp.
the minumum item lvl requirement of a game to do certain things... different story.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
However, "reasonable" is an arbitrary line in the sand and will change from person to person. I personally don't play F2P games or anything resembling P2W, so my arbitrary line in the sand is very strict, the only times I've faced it is when sub games that I was playing (lotro, swtor) converted to f2p.