What is closest to YOUR definition of P2W

Slapshot1188

The meaning of P2W seems to have shifted over time (or at least some people state it has).  Please select the option which most closely resembles YOUR definition of P2W

Quazal.A

Being able to buy anything, any amount of times that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage, even though i play it BDO has P2W aspects.
The problem with the question, is you must first define pay 2 win. More and More games that come out dont really have a win, but a 'advantage' or 'foot up' , but, if something can be bought using r/l £ regardless of whether it can be earnt in game its considered p2w for me
The line in sand, is immediate V earnt

Quizzical

None of them, really.  To me, "pay to win" means that, winning (in whatever sense you prefer) is fairly strongly correlated with paying more money on a rate basis, excluding games where the correlation only applies up to some modest threshold.  By a rate basis, I mean the amount you pay per month or whatever.  I'm explicitly trying to exclude subscription games from being "pay to win" here.  In a pure subscription game, someone who has paid $180 to play the game for a year will probably have a huge advantage over someone who has paid $15 to play for a month, but that's primarily about the difference between a year and a month.

Slapshot1188

Quazal.A said:

Being able to buy anything, any amount of times that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage, even though i play it BDO has P2W aspects.
The problem with the question, is you must first define pay 2 win. More and More games that come out dont really have a win, but a 'advantage' or 'foot up' , but, if something can be bought using r/l £ regardless of whether it can be earnt in game its considered p2w for me
The line in sand, is immediate V earnt

I would agree with this.  Folks get caught up on the word WIN and take it literally (IMHO).

I'm also not saying P2W is something abhorrent and should never be entertained at all.  I also think it's less damaging in PvE games than PvP ones, because in PvP your advantage DIRECTLY affects those you are in conflict with.

The most concerning ones to me are the ones where there are no limits. I think an optional subscription that gives benefits is slightly P2W while being able to spend thousands a month for unlimited resources is probably at the other end of the curve.

tawess

neither really... 

In my mind P2W is tied purely to PvP,

And then i simply breaks down to a item that shifts the balance of power and can not be easily obtained ingame. Because as some F2P games have proven.... There is a way to have items drop ingame and still make it pretty much mandatory to buy the item from the store (hello Neverwinter) 

So i guess... 1... but in the same way that a Skoda and a Pagani both are cars... 

Loke666

As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.

The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.

Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.

Slapshot1188

Loke666 said:

As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.

The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.

Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.

I would agree with a lot of this but what about being able to buy resources for cash?  That isn't DIRECTLY combat related but maybe it helps you:

• Not have to spend time farming/gathering but focus on developing those combat skills
• Be able to sell those resources for in game weapons/armor that affect combat
• Use to pay other people to fight with/for you
• etc... 

GeezerGamer

I chose getting any advantage, but it's more complicated than that. You really have to look at the game mechanics and what can be done using the Cash Shop. What's P2W for one game, might not be for another.

As an example. Take an MMORPG that has a cash shop. And from this cash shop, you can convert $$ to gold. You can also buy crafting mats with that gold. From those mats you can craft pretty much all near top level gear and possibly buy outright the BiS weapon if you want to spend enough. You can use the cash shop to get a character to level cap. You can buy Experience boosts, PVP currency boosts, PVE currency Boosts.

Is this a P2W Cash Shop?

You tell me. The game is GW2.

VestigeGamer

Slapshot1188 said:

Quazal.A said:

Being able to buy anything, any amount of times that means by hook or by crook you can gain an immediate advantage, even though i play it BDO has P2W aspects.
The problem with the question, is you must first define pay 2 win. More and More games that come out dont really have a win, but a 'advantage' or 'foot up' , but, if something can be bought using r/l £ regardless of whether it can be earnt in game its considered p2w for me
The line in sand, is immediate V earnt

I would agree with this.  Folks get caught up on the word WIN and take it literally (IMHO).

I'm also not saying P2W is something abhorrent and should never be entertained at all.  I also think it's less damaging in PvE games than PvP ones, because in PvP your advantage DIRECTLY affects those you are in conflict with.

The most concerning ones to me are the ones where there are no limits. I think an optional subscription that gives benefits is slightly P2W while being able to spend thousands a month for unlimited resources is probably at the other end of the curve.

Today, all games are "won."  What that means to most players is "time played."  Hell, players even talk about "winning" Elder Scroll games.  Players play until they max out levels and get bored, so in my mind, anything that helps get a player to the "end game" means they "win" faster and move on to the next game.

Keep in mind that I am not saying every player, but the vast majority of them today.

Just look at WoW.  A new expansion arrives and players come back, "win" again, and leave.  Many players do stick around and participate in raids and social activities at end game, but most do not.  Somewhere along the road, players got it in their heads that "games must be beaten."  Well, that has always been present, but now it is considered "the norm."  I don't "beat" games (exception being computer board games), I enjoy them.  When I've had enough, I quit playing.

Personally, I enjoy MMOs to relax.  Today's are just too "UP!  UP!  Run!  Run!  Fight!  Fight!  NEXT!" for my tastes.

CrazKanuk

I think that "Edge" isn't really defined. Are we talking about a competitive edge in competitive play? Are we talking about a "pay to advance" mechanic? Is this exclusive to PvP? 

GrayPhilosopher

Being able to use real money to purchase anything that gives you an advantage compared to other players. Anything that affects your overall damage output and/or health or effectiveness. Whether it's items or buffs or whatever. Distinct advantage bought with money = Pay2Win

Not to be mistaken for Pay-for-Convenience though. If you can reliably acquire the best items in the game, but you just so happen to also be able to buy those weapons if you're loaded and lazy, I'd call it pay-for-convenience instead. Since it's more of a shortcut to the top rather than an advantage.

It can get a bit iffy though. If the game is dominated by unreasonable RNG and getting  to "the top" is unrealistically tedious, slow or expensive anyway. Then being able to buy your way there is kind of Pay2Win'ish. 

I'd consider it more of a scale rather than a plain black&white thing.

CrazKanuk

GeezerGamer said:

I chose getting any advantage, but it's more complicated than that. You really have to look at the game mechanics and what can be done using the Cash Shop. What's P2W for one game, might not be for another.

As an example. Take an MMORPG that has a cash shop. And from this cash shop, you can convert $$ to gold. You can also buy crafting mats with that gold. From those mats you can craft pretty much all near top level gear and possibly buy outright the BiS weapon if you want to spend enough. You can use the cash shop to get a character to level cap. You can buy Experience boosts, PVP currency boosts, PVE currency Boosts.

Is this a P2W Cash Shop?

You tell me. The game is GW2.

The issue with the definition as it has "evolved" or devolved is that it expands the context to incriminate all games. Through various means, for any game, you can make use of real money in order to obtain in-game advantages. 

The real problem is that by diluting the definition we enable companies to become more and more overt with their cash shops. People really need a reality check. Cash shops are there because games cannot survive without them. Also, there are very few items which provide enough value to actually warrant a purchase. If we continue to incriminate all games for selling things through a cash shop then, ultimately, the companies will continue to push the line of what's acceptable because as long as they move that line together, as a collective, the vocal majority (or minority) doesn't really matter. It's essentially an oligopoly. Plus, the thing that's seriously screwed up with the whole situation is that the game developer who ACTUALLY stands up and fights back, with things like subscriptions or no cash shop, ultimately die horrible, horrible deaths. 

Slapshot1188

GrayPhilosopher said:

I'd consider it more of a scale rather than a plain black&white thing.

I agree that it's best reflected on a scale.  I think the only ones not on the scale are pure sub games where everyone is equal.    All the rest, if they let you use real money to buy advantages fall someone on that scale from slight P2W to all out P2W.

Distopia

The last truly P2W game I remember seeing was Archelord. What I consider P2W anyway.... Which is being able to buy items of power better than the average earned while playing.

holdenhamlet

p2w to me means the ability to simply swipe your card and suddenly be lightyears ahead of any non-swiping player.

Proponents of p2w mechanics often say, "P2W isn't bad because it gives me a chance to catch up to 'no-lifers'".  This never actually turns out to be true and as soon as p2w is implemented in any game, the payers are almost instantly very far ahead of any non-paying player, life or no-life.

I actually wouldn't be against a cash shop mechanic that allowed for people with no time but too much money to keep pace with people that played the game extensively.  But that's never how it works.

Slapshot1188

Distopia said:

The last truly P2W game I remember seeing was Archelord. What I consider P2W anyway.... Which is being able to buy items of power better than the average earned while playing.

Where I personally struggle with that definition (not saying it's wrong) is it doesn't account for how long it might take to get that item or in game advantage through normal play.    Suppose you could theoretically obtain the .001% drop for the Sword of Truth by slaying the foul Dragon thousands of times, or you could but that same item for $25.  To me, that's P2W.   Again, not saying that you are wrong if you see it another way (that's why I made the poll after all) but to me personally, just because I theoretically could do something in game to have a slight chance does not negate the P2W aspect of coughing up $25 and buying it instantly.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Pay to win is more about paying for in game power.  Meaning if you don't spend money in the cash shop you won't reach the top power level reasonably or ever.

I don't care if I someone plays more than me and is more powerful.  He is actually playing the game.  But having it so any twerp can come along and spend thousands and be more powerful than the people who actually play the game is bad.

Distopia

Slapshot1188 said:

Distopia said:

The last truly P2W game I remember seeing was Archelord. What I consider P2W anyway.... Which is being able to buy items of power better than the average earned while playing.

Where I personally struggle with that definition (not saying it's wrong) is it doesn't account for how long it might take to get that item or in game advantage through normal play.    Suppose you could theoretically obtain the .001% drop for the Sword of Truth by slaying the foul Dragon thousands of times, or you could but that same item for $25.  To me, that's P2W.   Again, not saying that you are wrong if you see it another way (that's why I made the poll after all) but to me personally, just because I theoretically could do something in game to have a slight chance does not negate the P2W aspect of coughing up $25 and buying it instantly.

TBH I think your example would fall into what I was saying, as that would be being able to buy something better than what the average drop would net you. So I think we agree, at least on that level. I just don't look at non combat advantages as paying to win. IE Xp pots, and things like that.

shalissar

I've softened my definition down to "does it affect me" in archeage, it very much does so it's very much p2w. in something like ffxiv, i couldn't care less if they're selling power.

CrazKanuk

shalissar said:

I've softened my definition down to "does it affect me" in archeage, it very much does so it's very much p2w. in something like ffxiv, i couldn't care less if they're selling power.

This is the essence of P2W. It's why XP Pots are now considered P2W and it's the same reason that cosmetic hats and dresses are not considered P2W. 

I must say, I will be VERY happy once we've diluted the term to the point where publishers start selling me BiS gear and max level characters. The black market is just much too expensive and I would rathergive my money to the publisher. /sarcasm 

Loke666

Slapshot1188 said:

Loke666 said:

As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.

The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.

Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.

I would agree with a lot of this but what about being able to buy resources for cash?  That isn't DIRECTLY combat related but maybe it helps you:

• Not have to spend time farming/gathering but focus on developing those combat skills
• Be able to sell those resources for in game weapons/armor that affect combat
• Use to pay other people to fight with/for you
• etc... 

The first one isn't P2win, the second can be (depending on the game, in some games are good items BOP while in others are everything for sale as well as it depends on how much gear matters in the game, in GW1 for example this would not matter at all). The third isn't p2win, more something like paying for friends....

Anyways, lets not complicate things too much. We need a clear and easy to understand defination so you simply can say if a game is p2win or not. If you start add a zillion exceptions it will become very complicated and people will disagre. 

1 short sentence or it will be too complicated. 

observer

I think P2W originally meant paying for weapons and items to beat someone in pvp.  It can be applied to PvE also, when items can give an advantage in progression, such as competitive raiding.

Just about every MMO is P2W in some form.  Their cash shop sell items to boost character levels, attributes, etc.

Flyte27

Anything you add to your character (even cosmetic or temporary) is an advantage in terms of building your character.  Getting to the end game and beating all the content or beating everyone in PvP is not the only goal in an MMORPG.  If that were the case people wouldn't buy cosmetic items.

Time may be an unfair advantage to some, but it is a fairer way to play the game.  Basically in a time based game you get what you put into it.  Putting in a lot of hours is a big sacrifice in other areas of your life.  It also takes a lot out of you to play that much.  I know because it was very draining on me when I played UO and EQ a lot when I was young.  The big point in a subscription is that everyone has to invest the same amount of time and earn the items they get.  That is a huge difference IMO.

ceratop001

Loke666 said:

As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.

The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.

Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.

Agree with Loke666 he summed it up nicely.

reeereee

For real pay to win you need some mechanism by which whales can dump thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into the cash shop and gain more and more advantage as they spend. 

The nature of pay to win is something that allows people who want to spend a fortune in the cash shop huge advantage over people who want to spend a reasonable amount.  Not the differentiation between someone who wants everything handed to them for free and someone who is willing to spend the equivalent of what they would on a subscription game.

If you can win for $15 a month (like in SWTOR or BDO's Ghillie suit) then it's not really pay to win and you're just a cheep bastard who doesn't want to spend a dime if you're complaining about it.

Lokero

I think anything that has a direct impact on gameplay is "P2W".  That can be anything from XP potions to buying gold or whatever --  anything non-cosmetic really.

But, like others have said, I think it only matters in PvP games.

I also feel that anything non-cosmetic in a cash shop should be available to get in-game, even in PvE games.
I'm perfectly okay with cosmetic items being cash shop exclusives, though.  Like some of the mounts in WoW, as an example.