Faithless people that would donate to a kickstarter, and then take it away again.
I guess that people generally donate money with the expectations that: - the developers will put this money (almost) entirely on the development of the game - the developers will remain transparent and maintain the channels of communication - the backers will get the rewards they've pledged for - the backers will have a game to play in a reasonable time frame (based on estimations given by the studio) - the game at launch will resemble to what was presented before and during the Kickstarter
The refund policy usually is a safeguard that ensures that, in the case of major issues with the project (development is canceled, unreasonable delays, extreme changes in the design, etc.), the backers have a recourse to at least get a part of the money back.
Give them a chance mate, the kickstarter project hasn't even concluded yet and your trying to find out if they have a refund policy to claw back a pledge, your not one of those ppl who puts money in the collection tins and then expects change are you?
Your list is a tool for those who pledge something they could not afford to lose, those that want to look benevolent and charitable but once the dust has settled want their cash back ASAP.
If you have pledged and are having second thoughts (otherwise why ask about a refund at this stage of the process without doing any background checks yourself) then cancel the pledge as has been suggested by others.
As for getting your money back if the project fails, well I'm sure there are avenues to take to get some recourse, however I would suspect that most of the smaller pledges wouldn't even consider it, as the effort and probable costs incurred in trying to recoup your pledge years down the line may prove more hassle than it's worth, and that it will just be classed as a bad investment, like losing on the stock exchange.
You shouldn't even consider asking for your KS "donation" back even if the devs spend it all on broads, booze, and blow.
If this bothers you, don't donate, especially to "sketchy" development projects. (not implying this one is btw)
What if a KS project (or any crowdfunded project) is a fraud and the money is not spent on the development? Or if the game is still in Alpha 8 years after the Kickstarter?
I assume that the majority of people who give a sum of money to support a MMORPG project believe that they'll be able to play it in a reasonable time frame, with the rewards they were promised and with a quality/content resembling to what was advertised.
If a backer realizes that the project he supported for $500 has completely changed, is a fraud or shows no sign of progress for months, I'd be happy to know that this person at least get some of its money back.
Personally I feel if you give to something like this then you are not entitled to a refund unless they start doing shady things like Star Citizen did. As long as they keep there promises and don't change the entire game from what they advertised in the kickstarter you shouldn't get anything.
That's exactly my thought too. Depending on how strict the refund policy is, it can range from "no question asked" to "catastrophic events only".
I think it's important to know early in the crowdfunding campaign, so everybody is aware of it and people can make decisions accordingly.
Personally I feel if you give to something like this then you are not entitled to a refund unless they start doing shady things like Star Citizen did. As long as they keep there promises and don't change the entire game from what they advertised in the kickstarter you shouldn't get anything.
That's exactly my thought too. Depending on how strict the refund policy is, it can range from "no question asked" to "catastrophic events only".
I think it's important to know early in the crowdfunding campaign, so everybody is aware of it and people can make decisions accordingly.
Last post on this point from me.
I have made an investment. I hope it works out. I have written that money off as spent though.
I hope it is a good investment. But between now and release/non release my money is spent, no refund, no complains - just support.
If you cannot write the money off (as potentially bad investments can happen) then you really shouldn't get involved in KS projects to begin with.
But you also shouldn't invest if you do not think there is a good chance of it being a good investment.
Refunds to Crowdfunding for anything other than fraud or non delivery should not be expected. That said, some companies operate with a no questions asked policy.
Companies should just just be clear on the policy and stick to it.
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You shouldn't even consider asking for your KS "donation" back even if the devs spend it all on broads, booze, and blow.
If this bothers you, don't donate, especially to "sketchy" development projects. (not implying this one is btw)
What if a KS project (or any crowdfunded project) is a fraud and the money is not spent on the development? Or if the game is still in Alpha 8 years after the Kickstarter?
I assume that the majority of people who give a sum of money to support a MMORPG project believe that they'll be able to play it in a reasonable time frame, with the rewards they were promised and with a quality/content resembling to what was advertised.
If a backer realizes that the project he supported for $500 has completely changed, is a fraud or shows no sign of progress for months, I'd be happy to know that this person at least get some of its money back.
Donations are made without expectation of return.
Kickstarter donations are made in the hope that someone will do something and that you will be thanked for it in some way if they succeed in doing it.
When i made my donation, i did it with the full certainty that I could lose that money completely and never see anything come from it, and still be alright (both financially and emotionally).
If you can't guarantee the same for yourself, you shouldn't be making kickstarter donations to anyone in the first place.
Any company with a good product and good money management skills should have no problems giving out refunds as few people would be asking for refunds anyway.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Your list is a tool for those who pledge something they could not afford to lose, those that want to look benevolent and charitable but once the dust has settled want their cash back ASAP.
Kickstarter donations are made in the hope that someone will do something and that you will be thanked for it in some way if they succeed in doing it.
When i made my donation, i did it with the full certainty that I could lose that money completely and never see anything come from it, and still be alright (both financially and emotionally).
Yea, as far as I know nobody is asking for a return on investment (backing a project is different than investing money in a project).
The creators advertise a project and promise things, and it's based on those promises that the backers will or will not donate their money.
Some people care about how their donations are being used and if companies respect their engagements, while some people don't.
Sounds to me like what the OP is REALLY asking for is "risk-free KS projects", where if you don't like the way things are going (regardless of the reasons given), you can always get your pledge back.
Apparently some projects do offer that guarantee of an unlimited refund, but I'd bet they are very few and far between.
A KS campaign is run so that the developer is assured of a certain specified amount of money. Having pledges withdrawn randomly at any point after the campaign ends tends to negate the whole point of the campaign.
Sounds to me like what the OP is REALLY asking for is "risk-free KS projects", where if you don't like the way things are going (regardless of the reasons given), you can always get your pledge back.
Apparently some projects do offer that guarantee of an unlimited refund, but I'd bet they are very few and far between.
A KS campaign is run so that the developer is assured of a certain specified amount of money. Having pledges withdrawn randomly at any point after the campaign ends tends to negate the whole point of the campaign.
What I've been asking is "Have Soulbound Studios discussed about their refund policy?".
There's a big difference imo between a "risk-free KS project" and a project in which backers are allowed to get a refund under certain conditions (as discussed in this thread: broken promises, prolonged silence, fraud, unreasonable delays, major change in the design, etc.).
It's always useful to know the details of an agreement before the payment is made on the credit card. In the case of CoE, we're talking about several people donating hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollar. In my opinion, the refund policy is an information that the backers should be given before the end of the Kickstarter campaign.
As I mentioned above, many studios refunded or still refund the pledges of their backers, and as far as I know it hasn't jeopardized their projects, quite the opposite.
Having a clear refund policy ensures that backers can get their money back in the case that the developers aren't fulfilling their promises.
There should be no refund policy for DONATING to a kickstarter because that's exactly what it is a donation.
There should be no refund policy for DONATING to a kickstarter because that's exactly what it is a donation.
I've seen no mention of "donating" or "donation" in the Terms of Use of Kickstarter.
"When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. [...] the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers."
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward."
"[...] creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life."
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement."
"A creator [unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards] has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
According to my understanding of the Terms of Use, it is not considered a donation (since those who pledge are expecting a reward, sometimes of higher value than the amount pledged) nor an investment (doesn't generate income).
As explained on Kickstarter website, it's rather a pledge and a contract (agreement) between the Backer and the Creator.
Any company with a good product and good money management skills should have no problems giving out refunds as few people would be asking for refunds anyway.
I don't think that logic applies to crowdfunded projects. When it's an already finished product, then having a refund policy makes sense. But pledges are essentially donations or grants, or whatever term you prefer, with the possibility of a return reward. They're not preorders even though some people view them as such.
I could be wrong on this, but I thought Kickstarter projects allow you to increase, decrease, or cancel your pledge up until the project had ended. My reference was to OP's question what happens after the Kickstarter is done and you want a refund.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You shouldn't even consider asking for your KS "donation" back even if the devs spend it all on broads, booze, and blow.
If this bothers you, don't donate, especially to "sketchy" development projects. (not implying this one is btw)
What if a KS project (or any crowdfunded project) is a fraud and the money is not spent on the development? Or if the game is still in Alpha 8 years after the Kickstarter?
I assume that the majority of people who give a sum of money to support a MMORPG project believe that they'll be able to play it in a reasonable time frame, with the rewards they were promised and with a quality/content resembling to what was advertised.
If a backer realizes that the project he supported for $500 has completely changed, is a fraud or shows no sign of progress for months, I'd be happy to know that this person at least get some of its money back.
I gave near $200 to CU with no real belief that even if launches it will be a title I'll enjoy.
If nothing ever becomes of it no big deal, because I really did "donate" the money, and didn't consider it a purchase.
If I bought anything it was promises, and those aren't always kept despite the best of intentions.
BTW, CU is the only KS. I've backed, because the vision seemed obtainable.
Most other KS MMORPGS seem woefully underfunded for what they are promising so I'm sitting out until they ship as I feel few have any real shot of delivering a game with features and quality I would enjoy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What is up with all these refund posts on kickstarter projects. You are not buying a product that can be returned, you are donating money to a project..an idea, so that a group of people can finance the production of that idea. Once that money has been spent on salaries and other stuff, it is not fair or valid to ask them to pay you back (with other peoples donations).
Even if you get a promise of something if the project succeed, it is still not a buy - That is defined as return of INVESTMENT.
It's usually not when there's no money left in the bank account that the backers get refunded.
I think it's fair to ask for a refund in certain circumstances: fraud, major shift in the design (i.e. from a MMORPG to an arena game), developers go silent for months, etc.
The refund policy usually helps the backers to get a portion of the money back in case of major troubles, since once it's added to the Terms of Service, it has legal implications.
Fraud I would agree with. Major shift if they said the design might changes is iffy to me. Silent for months, not that is just your entitlement talking and shouldn't be a factor.
Kickstarters should just be considered a donation.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There should be no refund policy for DONATING to a kickstarter because that's exactly what it is a donation.
I've seen no mention of "donating" or "donation" in the Terms of Use of Kickstarter.
"When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. [...] the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers."
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward."
"[...] creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life."
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement."
"A creator [unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards] has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
According to my understanding of the Terms of Use, it is not considered a donation (since those who pledge are expecting a reward, sometimes of higher value than the amount pledged) nor an investment (doesn't generate income).
As explained on Kickstarter website, it's rather a pledge and a contract (agreement) between the Backer and the Creator.
Nowhere in any of that questionable legal mumbo-jumbo do I see KS promising or even referring to "refund on demand" before the project is ended. That's the WHOLE project, i.e. it finishes when the game is launched.
The KS "contract" demands accountability certainly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. All that really says is that the project team have to be able to reasonably account for what the money was spent on, ONLY IF the game is not delivered or is delivered in a significantly altered form. And that any excess funds (LMAO) should be returned to backers once the project is done.
It doesn't even look like the KS contract cares whether the game is delivered exactly as promised in the original KS campaign, only that a game of comparable standard is delivered.
BTW, CU is the only KS. I've backed, because the vision seemed obtainable.
Most other KS MMORPGS seem woefully underfunded for what they are promising so I'm sitting out until they ship as I feel few have any real shot of delivering a game with features and quality I would enjoy.
I don't back games often either, so far Crowfall / Camelot Unchained / Gloria Victis / Hailan Rising (RIP) because I also thought that the indie studios behind those projects were experienced, talented and passionate enough to deliver the game thanks to crowdfunding and investments.
From what I've seen, MMO + crowdfunding is a risky combination.
There should be no refund policy for DONATING to a kickstarter because that's exactly what it is a donation.
I've seen no mention of "donating" or "donation" in the Terms of Use of Kickstarter.
"When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. [...] the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers."
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward."
"[...] creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life."
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement."
"A creator [unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards] has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
According to my understanding of the Terms of Use, it is not considered a donation (since those who pledge are expecting a reward, sometimes of higher value than the amount pledged) nor an investment (doesn't generate income).
As explained on Kickstarter website, it's rather a pledge and a contract (agreement) between the Backer and the Creator.
The developer may be legally bound as you pointed out, but at the end of the day in my mind and based on the number of Kickstarters that actually have something useful in the end, those words don't seem to amount to much. That's why its more realistic to consider the money tossed in to be a donation because that's how most Kickstarters end up.
And if your asking the question then you don't have the money to donate ( lose ) so just pass on it.
Wondering if you can get your money back should not be one of the qualifiers to funding a Kickstarter, that's my PRIMARY point here. Consider the money gone forever the second you hit the submit button, and be pleasantly surprised if you get something in return for it.
Fraud I would agree with. Major shift if they said the design might changes is iffy to me. Silent for months, not that is just your entitlement talking and shouldn't be a factor.
We all have different criteria for what we consider acceptable or not, but I think that people in general would agree that if the creator of a project promises a MMORPG with thousands of players per map, and delivers a game that has nothing to do with that, the studio failed to "complete the project".
Nowhere in any of that questionable legal mumbo-jumbo do I see KS promising or even referring to "refund on demand" before the project is ended. That's the WHOLE project, i.e. it finishes when the game is launched.
The KS "contract" demands accountability certainly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. All that really says is that the project team have to be able to reasonably account for what the money was spent on, ONLY IF the game is not delivered or is delivered in a significantly altered form. And that any excess funds (LMAO) should be returned to backers once the project is done.
It doesn't even look like the KS contract cares whether the game is delivered exactly as promised in the original KS campaign, only that a game of comparable standard is delivered.
You wrote *edit my bad it was goboygo*: "[...] that's exactly what it is a donation" and I've replied to you with an explanation that Kickstarter pledges can not be considered donations since:
backers are promised a reward in exchange of their pledge
creators form a contract with the backers
the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward
if the creator is unable to satisfy the terms of the contract, they may be subject to legal action by backers
It's different from a donation: "something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money" " something (such as money, food, clothes, etc.) that you give in order to help a person or organization"
Fraud I would agree with. Major shift if they said the design might changes is iffy to me. Silent for months, not that is just your entitlement talking and shouldn't be a factor.
We all have different criteria for what we consider acceptable or not, but I think that people in general would agree that if the creator of a project promises a MMORPG with thousands of players per map, and delivers a game that has nothing to do with that, the studio failed to "complete the project".
Nowhere in any of that questionable legal mumbo-jumbo do I see KS promising or even referring to "refund on demand" before the project is ended. That's the WHOLE project, i.e. it finishes when the game is launched.
The KS "contract" demands accountability certainly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. All that really says is that the project team have to be able to reasonably account for what the money was spent on, ONLY IF the game is not delivered or is delivered in a significantly altered form. And that any excess funds (LMAO) should be returned to backers once the project is done.
It doesn't even look like the KS contract cares whether the game is delivered exactly as promised in the original KS campaign, only that a game of comparable standard is delivered.
You wrote *edit my bad it was goboygo*: "[...] that's exactly what it is a donation" and I've replied to you with an explanation that Kickstarter pledges can not be considered donations since:
backers are promised a reward in exchange of their pledge
creators form a contract with the backers
the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward
if the creator is unable to satisfy the terms of the contract, they may be subject to legal action by backers
It's different from a donation: "something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money" " something (such as money, food, clothes, etc.) that you give in order to help a person or organization"
You do understand that the questionable contract can actually be completed in so many ways that it can be completed just by the developer going on kickstarter and putting an update saying
"Your money was spend on this, that and the other. We underestimated and can not complete the project we are sorry"
Fraud I would agree with. Major shift if they said the design might changes is iffy to me. Silent for months, not that is just your entitlement talking and shouldn't be a factor.
We all have different criteria for what we consider acceptable or not, but I think that people in general would agree that if the creator of a project promises a MMORPG with thousands of players per map, and delivers a game that has nothing to do with that, the studio failed to "complete the project".
I can appreciate your perspective, but if your expectation is that every aspect promised will be delivered, then crowdfunding is not for you, please don't back anything. There will, inevitably, be something that is not delivered. If we used your criteria on any software project in the known universe, as pitched versus what is delivered, then every single project would fail. There is a massive delta between what is pitched as "We want to do this..." and what is delivered as "We needed to make some compromises....", but there are always compromises. That isn't to say that they will never do exactly what they envisioned, but it may not be feasible at the initial release.
So, while I totally agree with you that we all have different criteria for what we consider acceptable, people who are risk averse or who have very specific expectations of a crowdfunding project, without room for compromise, shouldn't back a project.
drakeordanska said: You do understand that the questionable contract can actually be completed in so many ways that it can be completed just by the developer going on kickstarter and putting an update saying
"Your money was spend on this, that and the other. We underestimated and can not complete the project we are sorry"
There we go contract complete
I wonder why you consider that the contract is questionable.
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
The "and", as opposed to "or", seems to imply that all those obligations must be fulfilled in the case that the creator does not complete the project and fail to deliver the rewards to entitled backers. If this is correct, the creator could not, as you suggested, only update Kickstarter without breaking said contract.
If you pledge, (After) the kick starter ends (Unless you agree to a no refund policy) or (EULA) before making your purchase (Then you could consider your purchase a (Pre-Order) which means if their company fails to deliver a product as described you could demand a full refund and or take it to court if you wanted to.
Over-All my opinion on this game (DO not back this game) simply for the reason of perm-death too many unanswered questions seems like a waste of time to even be playing but this is me and why I am not going to back this game but rather looking towards other games like Crow Fall.
(For example) I created a COE account on the website and I have not been presented an agreement, or Terms OF Use stating I can't get a refund, so if they add pre-order in the game later and lets say I do $2000, and want a refund after 5 months pass then it is within my legal right to do such...
The only problem with such is if the company argues it taking that to court, and with a bank its generally 90 days refund policy (Plus providing evidence) that they failed to deliver the product or service.
Comments
Give them a chance mate, the kickstarter project hasn't even concluded yet and your trying to find out if they have a refund policy to claw back a pledge, your not one of those ppl who puts money in the collection tins and then expects change are you?
Your list is a tool for those who pledge something they could not afford to lose, those that want to look benevolent and charitable but once the dust has settled want their cash back ASAP.
If you have pledged and are having second thoughts (otherwise why ask about a refund at this stage of the process without doing any background checks yourself) then cancel the pledge as has been suggested by others.
As for getting your money back if the project fails, well I'm sure there are avenues to take to get some recourse, however I would suspect that most of the smaller pledges wouldn't even consider it, as the effort and probable costs incurred in trying to recoup your pledge years down the line may prove more hassle than it's worth, and that it will just be classed as a bad investment, like losing on the stock exchange.
What if a KS project (or any crowdfunded project) is a fraud and the money is not spent on the development? Or if the game is still in Alpha 8 years after the Kickstarter?
I assume that the majority of people who give a sum of money to support a MMORPG project believe that they'll be able to play it in a reasonable time frame, with the rewards they were promised and with a quality/content resembling to what was advertised.
If a backer realizes that the project he supported for $500 has completely changed, is a fraud or shows no sign of progress for months, I'd be happy to know that this person at least get some of its money back.
I think it's important to know early in the crowdfunding campaign, so everybody is aware of it and people can make decisions accordingly.
I have made an investment. I hope it works out. I have written that money off as spent though.
I hope it is a good investment. But between now and release/non release my money is spent, no refund, no complains - just support.
If you cannot write the money off (as potentially bad investments can happen) then you really shouldn't get involved in KS projects to begin with.
But you also shouldn't invest if you do not think there is a good chance of it being a good investment.
Companies should just just be clear on the policy and stick to it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Kickstarter donations are made in the hope that someone will do something and that you will be thanked for it in some way if they succeed in doing it.
When i made my donation, i did it with the full certainty that I could lose that money completely and never see anything come from it, and still be alright (both financially and emotionally).
If you can't guarantee the same for yourself, you shouldn't be making kickstarter donations to anyone in the first place.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The creators advertise a project and promise things, and it's based on those promises that the backers will or will not donate their money.
Some people care about how their donations are being used and if companies respect their engagements, while some people don't.
Sorry for the caps but i can't believe anyone could go on and on and on about a measly refund, if this is such a serious problem for you then DON'T!
If it ever comes to fruition, check it out then buy it if you like it, like the rest of us do.
EDIT:
You are investing in this company. There should not be any refunds of any kind, it's an investment risk.
Can you buy shares in a company at $10 and when they plummet to 50 cents or tanks completely, can you get a 10 dollar refund, NO!
Apparently some projects do offer that guarantee of an unlimited refund, but I'd bet they are very few and far between.
A KS campaign is run so that the developer is assured of a certain specified amount of money. Having pledges withdrawn randomly at any point after the campaign ends tends to negate the whole point of the campaign.
What I've been asking is "Have Soulbound Studios discussed about their refund policy?".
There's a big difference imo between a "risk-free KS project" and a project in which backers are allowed to get a refund under certain conditions (as discussed in this thread: broken promises, prolonged silence, fraud, unreasonable delays, major change in the design, etc.).
It's always useful to know the details of an agreement before the payment is made on the credit card. In the case of CoE, we're talking about several people donating hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollar. In my opinion, the refund policy is an information that the backers should be given before the end of the Kickstarter campaign.
"When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. [...] the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers."
"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward."
"[...] creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life."
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement."
"A creator [unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards] has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
According to my understanding of the Terms of Use, it is not considered a donation (since those who pledge are expecting a reward, sometimes of higher value than the amount pledged) nor an investment (doesn't generate income).
As explained on Kickstarter website, it's rather a pledge and a contract (agreement) between the Backer and the Creator.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If nothing ever becomes of it no big deal, because I really did "donate" the money, and didn't consider it a purchase.
If I bought anything it was promises, and those aren't always kept despite the best of intentions.
BTW, CU is the only KS. I've backed, because the vision seemed obtainable.
Most other KS MMORPGS seem woefully underfunded for what they are promising so I'm sitting out until they ship as I feel few have any real shot of delivering a game with features and quality I would enjoy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Fraud I would agree with. Major shift if they said the design might changes is iffy to me. Silent for months, not that is just your entitlement talking and shouldn't be a factor.
Kickstarters should just be considered a donation.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The KS "contract" demands accountability certainly, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. All that really says is that the project team have to be able to reasonably account for what the money was spent on, ONLY IF the game is not delivered or is delivered in a significantly altered form. And that any excess funds (LMAO) should be returned to backers once the project is done.
It doesn't even look like the KS contract cares whether the game is delivered exactly as promised in the original KS campaign, only that a game of comparable standard is delivered.
From what I've seen, MMO + crowdfunding is a risky combination.
And if your asking the question then you don't have the money to donate ( lose ) so just pass on it.
Wondering if you can get your money back should not be one of the qualifiers to funding a Kickstarter, that's my PRIMARY point here. Consider the money gone forever the second you hit the submit button, and be pleasantly surprised if you get something in return for it.
You wrote *edit my bad it was goboygo*: "[...] that's exactly what it is a donation" and I've replied to you with an explanation that Kickstarter pledges can not be considered donations since:
- backers are promised a reward in exchange of their pledge
- creators form a contract with the backers
- the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward
- if the creator is unable to satisfy the terms of the contract, they may be subject to legal action by backers
It's different from a donation: "something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money" " something (such as money, food, clothes, etc.) that you give in order to help a person or organization""Your money was spend on this, that and the other. We underestimated and can not complete the project we are sorry"
There we go contract complete
I can appreciate your perspective, but if your expectation is that every aspect promised will be delivered, then crowdfunding is not for you, please don't back anything. There will, inevitably, be something that is not delivered. If we used your criteria on any software project in the known universe, as pitched versus what is delivered, then every single project would fail. There is a massive delta between what is pitched as "We want to do this..." and what is delivered as "We needed to make some compromises....", but there are always compromises. That isn't to say that they will never do exactly what they envisioned, but it may not be feasible at the initial release.
So, while I totally agree with you that we all have different criteria for what we consider acceptable, people who are risk averse or who have very specific expectations of a crowdfunding project, without room for compromise, shouldn't back a project.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
The "and", as opposed to "or", seems to imply that all those obligations must be fulfilled in the case that the creator does not complete the project and fail to deliver the rewards to entitled backers. If this is correct, the creator could not, as you suggested, only update Kickstarter without breaking said contract.
Don't back it.
Will save you time repeatedly posting stuff we have all read and us time telling you not to back it if you don't want to.
Who are you trying to persuade?
Because if it not yourself then why do you keep posting?
Over-All my opinion on this game (DO not back this game) simply for the reason of perm-death too many unanswered questions seems like a waste of time to even be playing but this is me and why I am not going to back this game but rather looking towards other games like Crow Fall.
(For example) I created a COE account on the website and I have not been presented an agreement, or Terms OF Use stating I can't get a refund, so if they add pre-order in the game later and lets say I do $2000, and want a refund after 5 months pass then it is within my legal right to do such...
The only problem with such is if the company argues it taking that to court, and with a bank its generally 90 days refund policy (Plus providing evidence) that they failed to deliver the product or service.