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Blizzard's WOW Mod Talking About Changes to the Game

blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,338
edited May 2016 in World of Warcraft
Post by a player:
Posted by Kazurath
    This is starting to sum up the Legion expansion feedback in general.

    "We appreciate the feedback given, but not a damn thing's gonna change. We're totally listening to you guys though!"

Post by a Blue:

I'm sorry it feels that way. This is going to be a lengthy post that will stray far afield from the topic of expensive vendor items, but there there are at least two major underlying issues here:

First off, there are multiple viewpoints on nearly any topic, as you can see in this thread. If I'd instead posted that we were going to reconsider and massively reduce the prices of the cosmetic items on this vendor, there would be other people feeling like their feedback was ignored. It's exceptionally rare that everyone wants the same thing (despite frequent framing of "no one likes X" or "we want X" when giving feedback). And even then, there is a large silent majority that does not post on forums. If there were actual unanimity regarding a certain issue, we would change our design: For example, early on in Warlords, we changed Group Finder loot from Personal back to Need/Greed until we could iterate on Personal loot further, and the community overwhelmingly told us that was a dumb idea. The change was reverted within 2 days.

Second, almost every facet of WoW is an activity that caters to a minority of the playerbase. That may sound odd at first blush, but it's true. In a sense, that's part of the magic of WoW. It is not a narrow game, but rather one that can be enjoyed in numerous different ways, by people with hugely diverse playstyles. A minority of players raid. A minority of players participate in PvP. A tiny minority touch Mythic raiding. A tiny minority of players do rated PvP. A minority of players have several max-level alts. A minority of players do pet battles, roleplay, list things for sale on the auction house, do Challenge Mode dungeons, and the list goes on. Virtually the only activity that a clear majority of players participate in is questing and level-up dungeons, but even then there's a sizeable group that views those activities as a nuisance that they have to get through in order to reach their preferred endgame.

And yet, taken together, that collection of minority groups literally IS the World of Warcraft.

Perceptions of feedback are further complicated by the fact that, due to the cooperative nature of the game, players tend to make connections with others who favor a similar playstyle. I'm generalizing a bit here, and there are certainly exceptions, but I'd guess that a typical Gladiator-level player probably doesn't have a WoW social group that consists of people who mostly solo-level alts and explore the world. And most small friends-and-family guilds don't spend a lot of time talking to competitive Mythic raiders. So when there's a change, or a feature, that is aimed at a portion of the game that isn't your personal playstyle, it's easy and in fact natural to have the sense that "everyone" dislikes it.

If we decided to focus on a specific playstyle and elevate that portion of audience above the rest, then we could certainly visibly and consistently address clear feedback from that group, but WoW would become a far smaller game in the process.

Another major consequence of this structure is that if we have some special reward (be it a unique mount, a powerful item, a title, etc.) and we choose to associate it with a particular playstyle, almost by definition a majority of player feedback will be against that decision. For example, if an awesome mount comes exclusively from PvP, the majority of players who don't participate in PvP yet desire the mount would prefer that it were otherwise. If our goal were to please a majority, we would likely have to make a version of that mount also available through raiding, and one also available through outdoor questing and reputation, at the very least. But doing that would dilute the reward itself. Ultimately, the approach we take is usually to tailor different content and rewards that can feel special to different groups, rather than trying to come up with a lowest common denominator that isn't special to anyone.

In closing, I know it often can seem like we don't listen. We are - just to many, many different voices. And it may be that a given change, feature, or reward is simply aimed at a different portion of the playerbase. Or we could be wrong and we haven't realized it yet. So please, keep talking.

Read the thread here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20743595664?page=4#75

거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












Post edited by SBFord on
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Comments

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    That is a damn fine blue post one that I feel many posters here needs to read, though i doubt they'll really understand what the message it brings.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    but but....the vocal forum minority...they are always right....aren't they????  On no....my world is collapsing.
  • winghaven1winghaven1 Member RarePosts: 714
    edited May 2016
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    Except, y'know, they've lost an estimated 5-7 million (someone on this site did the math with the reported revenue since WoW numbers are no longer being reported) since WOD dropped.

    That was HALF their player base, and maybe more.

    "Oh, but the game is old!"

    Yep, but you still don't lose HALF your player base just because "it's old" in a year's time (which was the last time they reported WoW's hard numbers, and those being 5.6 million).

    You know how you lose half your player base that fast? 

    You dumb down your game to the point EVERYONE is bored or pissed.

    You don't update for 12+ months, so EVERYONE runs out of stuff to do.

    You make some farmville Facebook style gameplay MANDATORY to progress.

    You water down class choices until every class is, essentially, the same damned thing (last time I played during MOP, I didn't even NEED to use my pet as a Hunter - I one shotted almost everything, and in dungeons it didn't do enough damage to even MATTER).

    They fucked the game up. Period. Now they're trying to spin it like they've been making great decisions for the past 6 years, when in actuality, it's been a disaster, particularly this last expansion (though CATA and MOP weren't much to brag on, either).

    image
  • winghaven1winghaven1 Member RarePosts: 714
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    Are you sure that you played WoW vanilla? There's a difference between hitting lvl 60 in a month or two than hitting max level of 100 within 8 hours in the current version of WoW. When was the last time you explored outside of Stormwind City or outside your Garrison? There is little no community out in the world having kickass fun and helping each other with quests. Because in Vanilla you had to do be social, you had to work together at some point. Nowadays it's a breeze. You kill 3 mobs and you get a lvl-up. Turn in a dungeon quest *poof* you got 2 levels.

    Vanilla WoW had a different approach where the leveling experience was fun and thrilling, where you could run into big faction wars on the roads and meet potential online buddies in the middle of your questline. Taking on more than 3 mobs around your level alone was a fucking achievement. Back when WoW had a functional and active community! 

    I can't honestly put into words how vast the difference actually is but there are many videos and internet personalities that can really phrase it a lot better than I can. I LOVE world of warcraft but I just dislike how it has changed. 

    Maybe you can take a moment and watch a minute on this video if you can!


  • TheAmirTheAmir Member UncommonPosts: 433
    The above poster nailed it. I remember people being fairly impressed in Vanilla when I was farming devilsaurs solo to raise money for my epic mount (the leather used to sell pretty nice, but it took forever to raise those funds - and I loved every minute of it). I can tell you how awesome it was to get the Ancient Bone Bow back when it was a coveted blue and one of the best bows outside a raid instance. Now? Pppft, most people cycle through purples (let alone blues) so fast, they don't remember week to week what they've got. I know I sure didn't before I finally said "screw this" and quit. It's meaningless now. The entire game feels that way - there's no social connection, no sense of "I did it! I FINALLY did it!" and everyone gets every leet piece of gear just by facerolling dungeons so stupid easy my toddler could probably manage it.

    And no, I was never a hardcore raider. I was a filthy casual, and I STILL preferred it when there was some semblance of challenge and community.

    image
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    Are you sure that you played WoW vanilla? There's a difference between hitting lvl 60 in a month or two than hitting max level of 100 within 8 hours in the current version of WoW. When was the last time you explored outside of Stormwind City or outside your Garrison? There is little no community out in the world having kickass fun and helping each other with quests. Because in Vanilla you had to do be social, you had to work together at some point. Nowadays it's a breeze. You kill 3 mobs and you get a lvl-up. Turn in a dungeon quest *poof* you got 2 levels.

    Vanilla WoW had a different approach where the leveling experience was fun and thrilling, where you could run into big faction wars on the roads and meet potential online buddies in the middle of your questline. Taking on more than 3 mobs around your level alone was a fucking achievement. Back when WoW had a functional and active community! 

    I can't honestly put into words how vast the difference actually is but there are many videos and internet personalities that can really phrase it a lot better than I can. I LOVE world of warcraft but I just dislike how it has changed. 

    Maybe you can take a moment and watch a minute on this video if you can!


    Wanna know what i did in Vanilla WoW to level quickly? Solo'd Scarlet Monastery. I sold plvl runs and got people 30-40 in no time at all which was a shitty period cause the best place to level was STV and STV was fucking aids because of a relentless cycle of hatred between the alliance and horde.

    Also, your entire post practically focused only on leveling speed. Which is such a miniscule part of the overall game of WoW. There's nothing to explore outside of Stormwind City because I did that years ago. Even in Vanilla, i did all the exploring i needed to on my first character to 60. Just like in any game i play, i do all my exploring on my first char through the content, then i use all the shortcuts and efficient ways to level/farm on alts. You act like WoW is any different or worse.

    You know what WoW's community back then was like? Spamming trade chat that you were LF tank and healer, then pissed off because tank left after 3 bosses in maurodon and you'll never fucking get to the alligator boss for your boots because people you'll never get a group to stay together for 4 hours to do everything.

    The ninja'ing was unreal back then. Hunters ninjaing stat stick melee weapons. Rogues ninjaing stat stick ranged weapons. Nobody gave a FUCK about armor types. Paladins rolling on leather, hunters rolling on leather, everybody said fuck everybody else but themselves.

    This is fucking why the term rose colored glasses is a thing. Because its real.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • TsumoroTsumoro Member UncommonPosts: 435
    Sephiroso said:
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    Are you sure that you played WoW vanilla? There's a difference between hitting lvl 60 in a month or two than hitting max level of 100 within 8 hours in the current version of WoW. When was the last time you explored outside of Stormwind City or outside your Garrison? There is little no community out in the world having kickass fun and helping each other with quests. Because in Vanilla you had to do be social, you had to work together at some point. Nowadays it's a breeze. You kill 3 mobs and you get a lvl-up. Turn in a dungeon quest *poof* you got 2 levels.

    Vanilla WoW had a different approach where the leveling experience was fun and thrilling, where you could run into big faction wars on the roads and meet potential online buddies in the middle of your questline. Taking on more than 3 mobs around your level alone was a fucking achievement. Back when WoW had a functional and active community! 

    I can't honestly put into words how vast the difference actually is but there are many videos and internet personalities that can really phrase it a lot better than I can. I LOVE world of warcraft but I just dislike how it has changed. 

    Maybe you can take a moment and watch a minute on this video if you can!


    Wanna know what i did in Vanilla WoW to level quickly? Solo'd Scarlet Monastery. I sold plvl runs and got people 30-40 in no time at all which was a shitty period cause the best place to level was STV and STV was fucking aids because of a relentless cycle of hatred between the alliance and horde.

    Also, your entire post practically focused only on leveling speed. Which is such a miniscule part of the overall game of WoW. There's nothing to explore outside of Stormwind City because I did that years ago. Even in Vanilla, i did all the exploring i needed to on my first character to 60. Just like in any game i play, i do all my exploring on my first char through the content, then i use all the shortcuts and efficient ways to level/farm on alts. You act like WoW is any different or worse.

    You know what WoW's community back then was like? Spamming trade chat that you were LF tank and healer, then pissed off because tank left after 3 bosses in maurodon and you'll never fucking get to the alligator boss for your boots because people you'll never get a group to stay together for 4 hours to do everything.

    The ninja'ing was unreal back then. Hunters ninjaing stat stick melee weapons. Rogues ninjaing stat stick ranged weapons. Nobody gave a FUCK about armor types. Paladins rolling on leather, hunters rolling on leather, everybody said fuck everybody else but themselves.

    This is fucking why the term rose colored glasses is a thing. Because its real.
    Okay couple of things here to comment on, but before we get into the meat and potatoes of it all, anti-social behaviour exist then as much as it does now, to be fair, even more so these days. 

    There was tonnes to explore outside of Stormwind, people made their own fun and adventures. This was mainly because you could spend days in a single zone as you went through the leveling process, so you got to know the people around you. You grouped up for those elite quests, or explored the map trying to locate secrets and things to do. People interacted with each other. 

    No sure on what you mean about the Horde and Alliance hatred if honest, there was always a rivalry and that was the point between the factions. It led to some very fun Capital City raids.

    Do you also know what people did? They would look for a group, they would find that good healer, that good tank and they would become friends. I never had an issue, do you know why? Because the game was fucking social!!

    Let me put this into context here for you, you sage in trade looking for a tank, well I was your tank! I made dps and healer friends who would talk to me all the time for grouping. When I was dps I made friends with people who tanked for me. I would often get tells as soon as I logged into the game "hey can you tank this?" or "Hey, your leveling your Rogue, you wanna do Mara?". It really sounds like to me that you isolated yourself from the community of the game and feel a bit jilted that you never got on with it. 

    Do you know what, yes people rage quit dungones, people ninja'ed and people tried to inappropiately cyber me in the tram tunnels. But I have those stories to tell. You also had the accountability of if someone ninja'ed you, or was out of order you could speak to a guild officer (if they were in a guild) and make a complaint. It was an active game, filled with the good, the bad and the ugly.

    This is not a case of rose colored glasses, for it to be as such there has to be a sense of nostalgia that when revisited is harrowed by its reality. If this was true then why are legacy servers so freaking popular?? If it was truely rose colored then why doesn't the quarter million people all log on for a day and never touch it ever again?


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.
    Yea you could chain pull stuff in BC Heroics if you were in Tier 6 gear otherwise you had to CC things.  Today everyone is in Epic gear 1 month after the expansion launches and dungeons mean jack shit.  That is not going to change no matter what unless you bring back what was good about WOW.  


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Sephiroso said:
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    Are you sure that you played WoW vanilla? There's a difference between hitting lvl 60 in a month or two than hitting max level of 100 within 8 hours in the current version of WoW. When was the last time you explored outside of Stormwind City or outside your Garrison? There is little no community out in the world having kickass fun and helping each other with quests. Because in Vanilla you had to do be social, you had to work together at some point. Nowadays it's a breeze. You kill 3 mobs and you get a lvl-up. Turn in a dungeon quest *poof* you got 2 levels.

    Vanilla WoW had a different approach where the leveling experience was fun and thrilling, where you could run into big faction wars on the roads and meet potential online buddies in the middle of your questline. Taking on more than 3 mobs around your level alone was a fucking achievement. Back when WoW had a functional and active community! 

    I can't honestly put into words how vast the difference actually is but there are many videos and internet personalities that can really phrase it a lot better than I can. I LOVE world of warcraft but I just dislike how it has changed. 

    Maybe you can take a moment and watch a minute on this video if you can!


    Wanna know what i did in Vanilla WoW to level quickly? Solo'd Scarlet Monastery. I sold plvl runs and got people 30-40 in no time at all which was a shitty period cause the best place to level was STV and STV was fucking aids because of a relentless cycle of hatred between the alliance and horde.

    Also, your entire post practically focused only on leveling speed. Which is such a miniscule part of the overall game of WoW. There's nothing to explore outside of Stormwind City because I did that years ago. Even in Vanilla, i did all the exploring i needed to on my first character to 60. Just like in any game i play, i do all my exploring on my first char through the content, then i use all the shortcuts and efficient ways to level/farm on alts. You act like WoW is any different or worse.

    You know what WoW's community back then was like? Spamming trade chat that you were LF tank and healer, then pissed off because tank left after 3 bosses in maurodon and you'll never fucking get to the alligator boss for your boots because people you'll never get a group to stay together for 4 hours to do everything.

    The ninja'ing was unreal back then. Hunters ninjaing stat stick melee weapons. Rogues ninjaing stat stick ranged weapons. Nobody gave a FUCK about armor types. Paladins rolling on leather, hunters rolling on leather, everybody said fuck everybody else but themselves.

    This is fucking why the term rose colored glasses is a thing. Because its real.
    I cannot tell you how much bullshit is in the post.  You Solo'd SM really?  I would love to have seen that in Vanilla, only the fact is you couldnt unless you were 20+ levels over the instance level and at that point you got no XP.  


    O and your bitch about the Community is a joke.  Why?  Because you could have easily gotten in the 50 to 100 active guilds that would run with you all the time.  Hell even in some of the casual non raiding guilds they had instance runs going at all times.  I had friends in a few of these guilds.  Do I think there were grouping problems on the low pop servers after peak time for the server.  YEP.  However it is your job to be responsible for your own game time enjoyment.  
  • scorpex-xscorpex-x Member RarePosts: 1,030
    TheAmir said:
    Except, y'know, they've lost an estimated 5-7 million (someone on this site did the math with the reported revenue since WoW numbers are no longer being reported) since WOD dropped.

    That was HALF their player base, and maybe more.

    "Oh, but the game is old!"

    Yep, but you still don't lose HALF your player base just because "it's old" in a year's time (which was the last time they reported WoW's hard numbers, and those being 5.6 million).

    You know how you lose half your player base that fast? 

    You dumb down your game to the point EVERYONE is bored or pissed.

    You don't update for 12+ months, so EVERYONE runs out of stuff to do.

    You make some farmville Facebook style gameplay MANDATORY to progress.

    You water down class choices until every class is, essentially, the same damned thing (last time I played during MOP, I didn't even NEED to use my pet as a Hunter - I one shotted almost everything, and in dungeons it didn't do enough damage to even MATTER).

    They fucked the game up. Period. Now they're trying to spin it like they've been making great decisions for the past 6 years, when in actuality, it's been a disaster, particularly this last expansion (though CATA and MOP weren't much to brag on, either).
    You dont seem to understand that wow isnt in a vacume, the player losses happened when vast choice arose in the mmorpg market.  If there are only 2 funfairs in the world you will get most people no matter what.

    Wow lost players because many publishers released wow clones trying to pilfer them, the fact wow is still market leader is amazing after such an onslaught.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    O and on WatcherDev.  He is basically saying that Blizzard keeps trying to make EVERYONE HAPPY.  Yet they still have not learned that trying to make everyone happy has done nothing but made the game a pile of shit.  

    "Gladiator-level player probably doesn't have a WoW social group that consists of people who mostly solo-level alts and explore the world. And most small friends-and-family guilds don't spend a lot of time talking to competitive Mythic raiders."

    I am also going to say.  I was in a Progressive raiding guild in Vanilla WOW and a Casual raiding guild in TBC.  During that time I had friends who I talked to on a weekly bases from Casual Leveling Guilds, to PVP Guilds to the most hardcore guilds on my server.   So did a lot of people I was friends with.  A lot of the guilds on my server talked to one another to keep ninjas from our guilds as well as someone named Demondruids.  The only reason why people today dont talk to one another is because they made WOW into an anti Social pile of shit.  
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    edited May 2016
    danwest58 said:
    Sephiroso said:
    Sephiroso said:
    If you try to cater to everyone you will later realize you won't be able to cater to any of them. Vanilla WoW had a strong vision and focus group and that's what a lot of people are missing. World of Warcraft in its current state is a dumbed down & super easy version in order to be more accessible for everybody. It's marketing, it works. 

    But I don't agree with it.
    I love how people say WoW is dumbed down. Leveling was always faceroll easy outside of group quests. Heroic dungeons might not be what they used to, but thats because the heroic dungeons of old are now mythic dungeons. And even back in BC when you outgeared heroic dungeons, you could chain pull shit and didn't have to rely on CC. Same thing now, so long as you don't outgear mythic dungeons, you will need to rely on CC and can't chain pull recklessly.

    Not to mention WoW's raids have only gotten more complex. Specially compared to Vanilla lol.

    Are you sure that you played WoW vanilla? There's a difference between hitting lvl 60 in a month or two than hitting max level of 100 within 8 hours in the current version of WoW. When was the last time you explored outside of Stormwind City or outside your Garrison? There is little no community out in the world having kickass fun and helping each other with quests. Because in Vanilla you had to do be social, you had to work together at some point. Nowadays it's a breeze. You kill 3 mobs and you get a lvl-up. Turn in a dungeon quest *poof* you got 2 levels.

    Vanilla WoW had a different approach where the leveling experience was fun and thrilling, where you could run into big faction wars on the roads and meet potential online buddies in the middle of your questline. Taking on more than 3 mobs around your level alone was a fucking achievement. Back when WoW had a functional and active community! 

    I can't honestly put into words how vast the difference actually is but there are many videos and internet personalities that can really phrase it a lot better than I can. I LOVE world of warcraft but I just dislike how it has changed. 

    Maybe you can take a moment and watch a minute on this video if you can!


    Wanna know what i did in Vanilla WoW to level quickly? Solo'd Scarlet Monastery. I sold plvl runs and got people 30-40 in no time at all which was a shitty period cause the best place to level was STV and STV was fucking aids because of a relentless cycle of hatred between the alliance and horde.

    Also, your entire post practically focused only on leveling speed. Which is such a miniscule part of the overall game of WoW. There's nothing to explore outside of Stormwind City because I did that years ago. Even in Vanilla, i did all the exploring i needed to on my first character to 60. Just like in any game i play, i do all my exploring on my first char through the content, then i use all the shortcuts and efficient ways to level/farm on alts. You act like WoW is any different or worse.

    You know what WoW's community back then was like? Spamming trade chat that you were LF tank and healer, then pissed off because tank left after 3 bosses in maurodon and you'll never fucking get to the alligator boss for your boots because people you'll never get a group to stay together for 4 hours to do everything.

    The ninja'ing was unreal back then. Hunters ninjaing stat stick melee weapons. Rogues ninjaing stat stick ranged weapons. Nobody gave a FUCK about armor types. Paladins rolling on leather, hunters rolling on leather, everybody said fuck everybody else but themselves.

    This is fucking why the term rose colored glasses is a thing. Because its real.
    I cannot tell you how much bullshit is in the post.  You Solo'd SM really?  I would love to have seen that in Vanilla, only the fact is you couldnt unless you were 20+ levels over the instance level and at that point you got no XP.  


    O and your bitch about the Community is a joke.  Why?  Because you could have easily gotten in the 50 to 100 active guilds that would run with you all the time.  Hell even in some of the casual non raiding guilds they had instance runs going at all times.  I had friends in a few of these guilds.  Do I think there were grouping problems on the low pop servers after peak time for the server.  YEP.  However it is your job to be responsible for your own game time enjoyment.  
    False. You specced heavily into frost mage and blizzard talents. Could kite for days with blink and blizzard and this was before the nerf to target caps with spell aoes(was a large reason why that nerf happened).

    When done properly you barely would take damage and could kill all the mobs in the dungeon and was ridiculously fast experience. Was one of the best ways to make gold for a semi-skilled player.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358
    Yeah, the sad truth is that Blizzard is completely right but thats not what people want to hear so they either lash out or retaliate with a Strawman Argument like how many subscribers they have lost.

    Blizzard does listen to feedback but they cant implement every individual's feedback, they can only aggregate the feedback into general feedback and then see if that doesnt conflict with the overall game as a whole.

    Which includes not only balancing a class versus other classes but also balancing PvE versus PvP and solo content vesus small group content vesus large group content.
    So, any time Blizzard changes something according to player feedback they have to factor in all of that.

    When they introduced Death Knights in WotLK they listened to player feedback too much and ended up with completely overpowered monsters in all aspects of the game.

    But, people only think of themselves so when Blizzard doesnt cater to their every selfish whim they get angry.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Personally I consider it to be drivel.

    Not the bit about "listening" - they "listen" to their metrics, early testers etc.

    But the suggestion that they have listened to "feedback" about the beta. If Legion was launching next year - OK. It isn't. It is launching in a handful of weeks. If this was a new game with bugs and stuff and someone came on and said "its only beta it will all be fixed at launch" I - and many others would say - no, to close to launch, what you see is what you will get. A few fixes maybe. This is no different.

    So for "a blue" to "respond" that they have "listened" to all that feedback - nah. A true answer would be: it is hat it is based on our early - internal - testing. And we listened to the small number of early testers.

    Now what is "interesting" is that this is another - what I would call - "damage limitation" blue post. And it almost sounds like "we know there are lots of you who don't seem to like this feature but we can point to Fred who liked it".
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited May 2016
    Xiaoki said:

    But, people only think of themselves so when Blizzard doesnt cater to their every selfish whim they get angry.
    Blizzard are not interested - I suggest - in whether people are angry or not. What they are interested in is whether they stay subscribed / resubscribe / buy the expansion. This is not the same Blizzard that listened to feedback, patched things between expansions with "tender" care. This is the Activision Blizzard that wants to release an xpac and 1 patch only every year. 
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,322
    The one thing I will always remember from my start in WOW was getting killed by Hogger over and over, until a raid was formed to farm his ass for an hour for no loot mind you.  It was just the thrill to say we killed that ass.  Now tell me what other game had that experience in the first 5-10 levels, which you didn't fly through in 5 minutes.

    Unfortunately with gaming the way it is now you will never see gameplay like that again.  Seems like gamers don't have time for anything, it is rush, rush, rush.

    WoW will never recapture was it once was because the average gamer today doesn't even know what it once was.  It has changed, it in no way is even close to the game that launched today.  No CC, at all now, just AoE everything.  Forget skills, they just want you to repeat the same 4 buttons, as you have no choices now.  Forget building your on skill tree was removed.  Etc.....

    RIP WoW you are not what you once were.


  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,202
    It's amazing that people think Blizzard does not do surveys and also find out what appeals to different parts of their player base. You cannot continue to appeal to your player base if you do not.

    You all keep harping about how they have lost so many million players but what about the number they have retained. Which game as old as WoW hell even some new ones comes close to that figure. For all we know and this is something you cannot verify they may have died even faster if they had not changed the game over the expansions. It's sad that you're using the loss of players as an excuse to say they are failing when the fact that they have retained a significant number should if anything indicate success.
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  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    blueturtle13 said:
    Post by a player:
    Posted by Kazurath
        This is starting to sum up the Legion expansion feedback in general.
    "We appreciate the feedback given, but not a damn thing's gonna change. We're totally listening to you guys though!"
    I love posts like this. "Things aren't going the way I want, so I'm gonna talk for the entire community about how Blizzard sucks."
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 1,138
    World of Warcraft has an identity crisis, confirmed by that blue post. They have spread themselves so thin trying to cater to an individual's pocket that they have forgotten about the game as a whole. It's clear now that they are more interested in making modules for "minorities" than actual content for a game.

    Jack of all trades, master of none. It's a perfectly fine concept if you're a handy man service, but it doesn't work so well when it's a video game. The best response you could hope for with that approach is " Yeah, it's average."
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited May 2016
    cheyane said:
    It's amazing that people think Blizzard does not do surveys and also find out what appeals to different parts of their player base. You cannot continue to appeal to your player base if you do not.

    You all keep harping about how they have lost so many million players but what about the number they have retained. Which game as old as WoW hell even some new ones comes close to that figure. For all we know and this is something you cannot verify they may have died even faster if they had not changed the game over the expansions. It's sad that you're using the loss of players as an excuse to say they are failing when the fact that they have retained a significant number should if anything indicate success.
    I agree entirely that they may have lost subscribers faster. Or not. We cannot say. I am pretty sure they would have retained subscribers for longer if they had not decided not to release content patches. And for anyone who says the devs are working on the xpac: they could have hired more devs. The xpac will be a paid expansion after all. And as I have said previously in the first two years of the game they released 1 large content patch every 2 months for 2 years (12 patches) and then released BC - which they made at the same time. Amazing what you can do if you don't slash the team.

    Which game comes close? Lineage 1. NCSoft haven't reported their first quarter earnings yet so premature to suggest that L1 may be bigger than WoW but it is possible especially taking into account AB's Q1 results (they didn't report WoW's subs or revenue but they reported Blizzard's revenue which was well down on last quarter and the same quarter 12 months ago - despite growth in Heathstone and Heroes. Even assuming WoW contributed the same % as last quarter then WoW's subs could be c. 3.05M.)

    Surveys? Metrics? Yes exit surveys are easy but tell you not a lot. Some focus groups - ditto. WoW's population is spread across many countries which will make it very hard to pin down "the winning formula". Hence ny simplistic view that the key was simply produce content. What they did instead was cut back on devs - to c. 125 based on what they said about "doubling" the team last year. No wonder they stopped producing content patches.

    The strategy business strategy AB seem to have decided upon was an annual expansion to bring people back. Quicker so smaller hence leave out flying - no way did that get the thumbs up on any survey - prune abilities, single story rather than two faction stories etc. A single content patch mid-year - giving subscribers something to stay subscribed for. A film to attract new players. On paper it must have looked brilliant. Lower cost. A revenue boost from annual expansions. Free publicity. Higher subs. Nirvana! As the saying goes: the best laid plans of mice and men. 
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    gervaise1 said:
    Personally I consider it to be drivel.

    Not the bit about "listening" - they "listen" to their metrics, early testers etc.

    But the suggestion that they have listened to "feedback" about the beta. If Legion was launching next year - OK. It isn't. It is launching in a handful of weeks. If this was a new game with bugs and stuff and someone came on and said "its only beta it will all be fixed at launch" I - and many others would say - no, to close to launch, what you see is what you will get. A few fixes maybe. This is no different.

    So for "a blue" to "respond" that they have "listened" to all that feedback - nah. A true answer would be: it is hat it is based on our early - internal - testing. And we listened to the small number of early testers.

    Now what is "interesting" is that this is another - what I would call - "damage limitation" blue post. And it almost sounds like "we know there are lots of you who don't seem to like this feature but we can point to Fred who liked it".
    You call 16 weeks "a handful of weeks"? That just proves everything else you said is completely unreliable. That's a third of a year and you call that a handful of weeks? lol.

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    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited May 2016
    Sephiroso said:
    gervaise1 said:

    You call 16 weeks "a handful of weeks"? That just proves everything else you said is completely unreliable. That's a third of a year and you call that a handful of weeks? lol.
    Less than a third but we won't quibble :)

    16 is a handful of weeks - and yes I am speaking from experience. However ask yourself the question. How long will it take to: collect feedback; assess feedback and decide what needs to be acted on; decide how to react, what changes to make, how will those changes impact the rest of the game; establish any systems changes; code; internal test; time allowed for fixes; retest; make sure it hasn't messed up any stress tests. And don't forget you have to allow time to promote the change. There is more as well!

    At this stage in the deelopment process nothing major is going to change. It is baked in. What you see - bar a few tweaks - is what you get. Think about other games. Destiny had its public stress test "a third of a year" before it launched. Many games do.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    edited May 2016
    gervaise1 said:
    Sephiroso said:
    gervaise1 said:

    You call 16 weeks "a handful of weeks"? That just proves everything else you said is completely unreliable. That's a third of a year and you call that a handful of weeks? lol.
    Less than a third but we won't quibble :)

    16 is a handful of weeks - and yes I am speaking from experience. However ask yourself the question. How long will it take to: collect feedback; assess feedback and decide what needs to be acted on; decide how to react, what changes to make, how will those changes impact the rest of the game; establish any systems changes; code; internal test; time allowed for fixes; retest; make sure it hasn't messed up any stress tests. And don't forget you have to allow time to promote the change. There is more as well!

    At this stage in the deelopment process nothing major is going to change. It is baked in. What you see - bar a few tweaks - is what you get. Think about other games. Destiny had its public stress test "a third of a year" before it launched. Many games do.

    What experience? Reading "Java for the Dummies" and typing the examples?

    16 weeks is 4 months... quite a lot of time to make changes in software. Or you have the most inefficient team of developers on earth. Which I don't think is Blizzard's case.

    The changes we are talking about here is not a complete graphic overhaul of the game or a total change of the rules, or similar drastic changes. It's fine tuning based on feedback.
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