Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

It's important that Pantheon will be hard.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,936

Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

«134

Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,486
    edited May 2016
    Or you could look up a few walkthrough videos on the Internet like everyone else and skip all of that interaction and get back to work.  ;)

    Oh yes, just looked it up, you can hack and cheat, at least on the PC version.  Problem solved.  :p

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    You are right, partly because Pantheon doesn't seem to aim for the 3 weeks bungee players, if you want hardcore gamers to play your game you need to make the difficulty hardcore as well.

    However there is a perfect difficulty they need to find, hard and challenging but not impossible. If 95% of all dungeon runs fail by even experioence players it is too hard. If 5% fail it is too easy, you need something in the middle (60% maybe?).

    Raiding is a different matter of course, just talking about general dungeons there. Players should die now and then unless they play divinely good even in the open world.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,486
    edited May 2016
    On a more serious note, MMO players generally won't stick with a game they can't "beat.'

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.

    So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?

    (I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited May 2016
    Kyleran said:
    On a more serious note, MMO players generally won't stick with a game they can't "beat.'

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.

    So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?

    (I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)
    What are you basing the statement on that MMO players won't stick with a game they can't beat? The vast majority of people playing MMOs up to and including WoW were not "beating" those games, yet they continued playing them. By WoTLK, still less than 10% of their playerbase even cleared the final raid content.

    If anything, we can conclude that the concept of allowing everyone to beat the game has basically killed MMOs. It was never supposed to be about finishing some crowning achievement or slaying a final boss, but a persistent world that continues to challenge you.


  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    So long as they realize just giving something a ton of hp and making it 1 shot everyone isn't challenging.  I ran one Archeage dungeon and it was quite challenging.  Even with a guild group of people who knew what they were doing it was still hard and sometimes you couldn't finish it.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kyleran said:
    On a more serious note, MMO players generally won't stick with a game they can't "beat.'

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.

    So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?

    (I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)
    That only tells us that Blizzard believe it is so. And to be honest have they lost a lot of players since they started that, probably unrelated but your "proof" is also doubtful at best.

    An interesting thing is as MMOs get easier the shorter time players stay in them, that might also be unreleated but i don't think it is even if it is just part of the reason so many players just stay a few weeks.

    Now, some players do quit the same moment they feel they die too much but games that are way harder then modern MMOs did keep a lot of players. Guildwars were initially pretty hard and Wow started out at least way harder then it is today (generally, not sure if you compare the hardest raids then and now).

    There is another interesting factor here: Almost all MMOs have the same general difficulty. That means the competition for more challenging MMOs is far less then of casual ones. There is certainly likely that only 10% of the gamers might like harder games but there are 100 games to compete with for easy gameplay with a few tougher raids, there is almost no other game with a general high or medium-high difficulty. 

    Pantheon is aiming mainly against older players and hardcore fans. I think the probable playerbase for that is better with harder content then easy.

    Now, if you were to make Wow2 you want it pretty easy but Pantheon is more related to EQ and Vanguard then Wow.

    As for Wildstar, I don't think it's problem really was difficulty. With Pantheon I think the magical playerbase would be between 250K-1M. If it is good enough it should be able to get that, there is very few similar games that isn't ancient so as long as it can be fun for the oldschoolers it should do well (it is made on a pretty limited budget so 250K players should be more then enough to support it).
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    filmoret said:
    So long as they realize just giving something a ton of hp and making it 1 shot everyone isn't challenging.  I ran one Archeage dungeon and it was quite challenging.  Even with a guild group of people who knew what they were doing it was still hard and sometimes you couldn't finish it.
    I think they have a good idea of how to make the game hard.

    Also, AA might not be the best example. Most of its dungeons were hard simply because many mobs could one-shot you.


  • NasaNasa Member UncommonPosts: 696
    Except from EVE which MMO's are considered hard and successful?
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    Dullahan said:
    Kyleran said:
    On a more serious note, MMO players generally won't stick with a game they can't "beat.'

    Blizzard simplified WOW'S raiding so it would appeal to more than 10% of the playerbase.

    So the real question for Pantheons devs is how small of a long term playerbase do they wish to appeal to?

    (I'm thinking the Wildstar team had some 2nd thoughts on this seeing how things all turned out.)
    What are you basing the statement on that MMO players won't stick with a game they can't beat? The vast majority of people playing MMOs up to and including WoW were not "beating" those games, yet they continued playing them. By WoTLK, still less than 10% of their playerbase even cleared the final raid content.

    If anything, we can conclude that the concept of allowing everyone to beat the game has basically killed MMOs. It was never supposed to be about finishing some crowning achievement or slaying a final boss, but a persistent world that continues to challenge you.
    I agree with Dullahan here.  Making an MMORPG too accessible has lead to the downfall of MMORPGs period.  

    Kyleran.  The problems with WildStar is development started in 2005 and cost several million dollars Lets say between $100 Million and $250 Million because thats what other MMOs cost.  The game was build for the less than 1% of WOWs 2005 Player base where a bit of twitch gaming with action combat like setup and a very hard grind is the problem.  Hell players had to grind hours just to get keyed to raid, then you did the 20 man raid to do the 40 man raid.  WOW in Vanilla and TBC didn't have the same raid on different modes, they were completely different raids.  Add to that the core of the game was built around large raids which outside of lets say vanilla WOW severs run by blizzard themselves will never work again.  This is because people like me know how much of a pain it is in the ass to run these raids because I did it.  Why I would do it on a blizzard runs server is because the majority of that server will be old school vanilla players not today's MMORPG gamer which jumps from one game to another when they cannot stand in fire and live.  You cannot have an MMO costing $100 million and not go for the casual crowd that jumps to a new game the first time he dies.  

    Pantheon will not be for these type of players, it will be for players like myself who like the old school MMORPGs though I might not like the EQ type, I would be better in a game like Shared Online or something :)  
  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,419
    I consider life a head banging, difficult, how do I solve this problem experience; gaming for me is sitting down with tea and biscotti or similar and relaxing while I enjoy a great story and fight monsters.  Pantheon may be hard but it does not need to be FOR ME.  I'm sure I'll pass on this title as I have on all the Dark Souls titles.  No problems for me in this.  Plenty of games fit my criteria and good to see there are players who can find all types of games. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    flizzer said:
    I consider life a head banging, difficult, how do I solve this problem experience; gaming for me is sitting down with tea and biscotti or similar and relaxing while I enjoy a great story and fight monsters.  Pantheon may be hard but it does not need to be FOR ME.  I'm sure I'll pass on this title as I have on all the Dark Souls titles.  No problems for me in this.  Plenty of games fit my criteria and good to see there are players who can find all types of games. 
    While I fully expect Pantheon to have some head banging difficulty, that isn't the main goal.

    EQ and Vanguard, the predecessors to Pantheon, were about social challenges as much as they were about challenging mechanics. Social interaction, teamwork and time devotion were probably the biggest factors.

    I understand why people may bring up Dark Souls, because its unforgiving nature is comparable to older games. However, I wouldn't consider that aspect to be the defining quality of an oldschool MMORPG.


  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,681
    Honestly, I feel there should be one version of things. I'm tired of seeing "Normal mode" "Hard mode" etc. There should just be one mode which was the hardest mode and you could either clear it or not. Devs need to have backbone and not be afraid to lock people out of things instead of dumbing it down so everyone can experience it.
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    I am hoping for approximately the same degree of difficulty we had in EQ.


    Soloing and grouping had a learning curve, and even the best would wipe occasionally.

    Raiding, especially on the cutting edge, could be extremely challenging.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • BitterClingerBitterClinger Member UncommonPosts: 437
    It depends on what people mean when they say "Hard". What I don't want is more of the same ol' RPG arms race. You know, just add more Health and DPS to mobs, requiring ever higher DPS and Damage Absorption for player characters.

    I don't mind "linking" groups of mobs and mobs that can summon adds. I also don't mind mob groups with mixed functions, like having ranged attacks or healers amongst them. Obviously, leaders or special mobs are going to be tougher, but just adding more health and damage output to a mob is king of disappointing in terms of a challenge.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    It depends on what people mean when they say "Hard". What I don't want is more of the same ol' RPG arms race. You know, just add more Health and DPS to mobs, requiring ever higher DPS and Damage Absorption for player characters.

    I don't mind "linking" groups of mobs and mobs that can summon adds. I also don't mind mob groups with mixed functions, like having ranged attacks or healers amongst them. Obviously, leaders or special mobs are going to be tougher, but just adding more health and damage output to a mob is king of disappointing in terms of a challenge.
    Agreed. Also, add a bit random factor to bosses and buff up the Ai a bit. There should be something in between jellyfish brain and impossible to beat that would make combat more fun and less skill rotation.

    Usually when a MMO makes something "#hard" that just means it takes more time to kill the bosses, it isn't really much harder to spend 20 minutes to kill a boss instead of 5 minutes and it certainly isn't more fun. Adding more damage is at least somewhat better but it is still pretty weak.

    A more random element makes it harder to just wiki a boss to get an exact method to kill it and if you also makes it smarter you forces the players to adapt during combat. Timing is something most MMOs can do better as well, both timing your own attacks for effectivety (instead of standard skill rotation) and to time together with the rest of the group.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,869
    The real let down for me in the lack of evolution in the genre is that the AI has not really changed. For an MMO to be more difficult I think the mob AI need behaviors and ranks. Something in the realm of Shadow of Mordor's Nemesis system would be nice. Where the mobs have fears and strengths. They have a chain of command. They remember you if you killed their brother or something. I agree with the other posters, just adding a bigger health bar to a mob is not making it more difficult.  

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,868
    If the encounter feels unbeatable, people just won't play.  Like ESO nurfing some dungeons because they have a low completion rate.   Design a game that's to hard for none mini-maxer's and it gets nurfed or struggles to keep a large player base.  Which means the game doesn't make enough money to support it's staff.  Good luck with that.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 397
    Loke666 said:
    However there is a perfect difficulty they need to find, hard and challenging but not impossible. If 95% of all dungeon runs fail by even experioence players it is too hard. If 5% fail it is too easy, you need something in the middle (60% maybe?).

    Itd only be 95% at first, and thats a good thing. Thats what gave Dark Souls its players. Getting better and learning what to do and how to do it is its own reward. Not saying I think Pantheon should drop all exp, and respawn everything after every wipe but there should be many wipes along the way, not just end game.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,856
    Loke666 said:
    You are right, partly because Pantheon doesn't seem to aim for the 3 weeks bungee players, if you want hardcore gamers to play your game you need to make the difficulty hardcore as well.

    However there is a perfect difficulty they need to find, hard and challenging but not impossible. If 95% of all dungeon runs fail by even experioence players it is too hard. If 5% fail it is too easy, you need something in the middle (60% maybe?).

    Raiding is a different matter of course, just talking about general dungeons there. Players should die now and then unless they play divinely good even in the open world.
    What makes it difficult? Is Dark Souls III really difficult? Because replay through again isn't as difficult at all. It's a lot like raiding. Once you know the dance moves the difficulty becomes rather trivial.

    Blueturtle nailed it. Until mob AI improves and they have unpredictable or changing strengths and weaknesses the difficulty is just unfamiliarity.

    Until challenge is well defined the discussion is moot anyway.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    I am hoping for approximately the same degree of difficulty we had in EQ.


    Soloing and grouping had a learning curve, and even the best would wipe occasionally.

    Raiding, especially on the cutting edge, could be extremely challenging.

    I question whether that degree of difficulty is even possible to achieve today, especially if they go with typical MMORPG AI systems. Sure they can just make everything take forever to kill with insane stats on mobs, bosses, etc... But actually challenging players on a strategic level? They're going to have to be pretty damn clever to pull that off. Gamers just have years and years of experience in these systems at this point. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,102

    Right now I got talked into playing Dark Souls 3, by a fellow worker.  It's a hard game, it started off just the two of us.  Everyone else is under the impression that it's too hard.  However since everyone else are constantly hearing us talk about it, there asking questions.  Now we have four others playing the game and loving it.

    Were all constantly in a jam at some point in the game and we discuss options for that person....It's getting hard to concentrate on our jobs :)

    Being in a jam ALL THE TIME is the key to us having fun !......We all love it......All of us.

    We have to really concentrate on both character development and game world.......This is how an mmo is to be made.

    IT'S WHAT KEEPS YOU PLAYING.


    And as always, no cash shop, because that's a trick !

    This is how MMO's used to be and how they SHOULD be, but we all know what happened next. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,936

    My friend and I are weeks ahead of the others in this so called hard game.  Both of us had made several mistakes in attribute points for our character development ( nothing extremely major ), we also had fought are way through several maps.  Basically I'm saying we have some experience.

    The others are struggling to avoid them by are discussions.  We talked about the game all day yesterday, and I cant wait to find out how everyone made out last night.  One is going for a healer / fighter build and another is working on a not very popular Assassin.  There going down new territory ! 

    To make a long story short not much work will get done today because we have a lot to talk about.

    Dark Souls 3 is not an mmo, but try finding this in newer mmos like Black Dessert Online or any other mmo.......Enjoy your off line fishing features or what ever your doing in BDO.  I enjoy the struggle. 

    THIS IS A LOST ART !

  • CeryshenCeryshen Member UncommonPosts: 73
    Is this about Pantheon or an advertisement post for Dark Souls 3?
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Kyleran said:
    Or you could look up a few walkthrough videos on the Internet like everyone else and skip all of that interaction and get back to work.  ;)

    Oh yes, just looked it up, you can hack and cheat, at least on the PC version.  Problem solved.  :p

    Yeah, that is one of the downsides to the internet (in my opinion).  Back in the dark ages there weren't any videos and you weren't expected to do homework for a game you were playing. 

    I realize that quite a few people must like it this way, but I like to learn things myself - which means that normally I won't be able to get a group.  I don't want to ruin other people's fun just because I am a luddite :)
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,146
    Scott23 said:
    I realize that quite a few people must like it this way, but I like to learn things myself - which means that normally I won't be able to get a group.  I don't want to ruin other people's fun just because I am a luddite :)
    I understand what you are saying. In a lot of games, you join a group and the expectation is that you will have either run the encounter 50 times already, or will have "studied" in advance.

    I guess people could have a good faith disagreement about whether studying is "preparation" to be expected (and desired) in any challenging mmo, or whether it reduces the encounter to ez mode by robbing it of any spontaneity or surprises.

    Personally, I would rather face the dungeon with the freshness with which it was faced the first time a group of players entered it. But finding like minded people is not easy. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

Sign In or Register to comment.