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Should characters have a chance to fail at in-game actions?

Blurry.FaceBlurry.Face Member UncommonPosts: 20
edited May 2016 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
In most PnP RPG's, characters have a chance to fail at most actions at some point or another, often by rolling the dreaded 1. So, it didn't matter if your master-sword-chuck-wielding fighter was amazing with his combat prowess, every once in a while they would slip, or he'd whack his tallywhacker. 

Is it possible to translate this to an MMO? Would such a thing even be desirable?
AlBQuirky
«13456

Comments

  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,097
    Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas, and I am pretty sure that was the last fight he won in his career.  That type of thing should be possible in games too.  When I was playing DnD, no matter how good your character was, a roll of '1' was always a miss, and if your opponent rolled a '20' it was always a hit.  That should be in games too, so players realize that they have to be ready for anything.  A level 698 walking through a bunch of level 3's should still have to deal with the fact they can be hit, stunned, knocked off of their horse, whatever.  If they don't want to deal with this, they can just go around them.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


  • JinxysJinxys Member UncommonPosts: 488
    Spell Fizzle !! Yeah!
    AmatheAlBQuirky
  • Blurry.FaceBlurry.Face Member UncommonPosts: 20
    Thank you for the votes and replies so far, this has been something of a nagging question I've had for a while. I can, personally, see either side of the answers, which is why I've abstained from voting myself.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,820
    No. We're playing video games, not Monopoly. 
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    I think this depends on the type of game...

    If action based combat my answer would probably be no

    But since my favorite MMORPG's are tab targeting RPG's i would say yes..  making failures should be part of a character...  However, since i like stat based games, having a stat that reduces the chance to make failures would also be a great part of the meta game...  Doing hard things also should raise the chance of failure, doing simple things should lower the chance...

    This to me would be an important part of bringing the RPG back to MMORPG's.. making games more strategical and tactical and less high speed action based
    AlBQuirky

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Definitely some form of occasional failure. Games are so sterile if everything is assured to succeed all the time. The best stories always start with an "Oh shiiiiiit" moment so let's see a bit of quirkiness in our RPGs.
  • GrayPhilosopherGrayPhilosopher Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Absolutely, but I don't think it should be determined by RNG. I think it should be more or less governed by mechanical complexity, as in it takes a bit of skill or concentration from the player. It doesn't have to be something difficult, just so long as it has a chance of failing if you get a little too relaxed with it.
    Hawkaya399
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited May 2016
    Isn't that what "accuracy" is for?  You're still gonna have a chance to "miss" regardless of how high it is because the enemy also has evade. I think that's enough. You dont need an extra mechanic to deal with. However, I think adding a mechanic like that would work best in something like equipment. To me it would make it more worth it to gear grind if my chances of not "messing up my skills" was increased due to the quality of equipment. Perfect example of a game that does that although not an mmo is far cry. Sure you can pick up any weapon off an enemy or ground but it can jam and so on, so quality would matter.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Yes , but the new Xbox generation of whiny soccer twats has made sure that everybody wins everything and gets there participation trophy ,that has dumbed down and wussified every release since 04 ...
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Yes, however there's not a snowball's chance of it being implemented in any mainstream game.

    PnP games were niche in their time, and people who accepted those rules would be a tiny minority in today's vast crowd of gamers, most of whom probably don't even know what PnP stands for...
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , but the new Xbox generation of whiny soccer twats has made sure that everybody wins everything and gets there participation trophy ,that has dumbed down and wussified every release since 04 ...
    The new generation isn't what brings this about, it's Devs catering to the Adults who want 15 minute play sessions to be a viable as well as rewarding affair, that is the problem. It's these people that the F2PMMORPG market mostly targets in the first place, as they're the ones with the money to burn.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Distopia said:
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , but the new Xbox generation of whiny soccer twats has made sure that everybody wins everything and gets there participation trophy ,that has dumbed down and wussified every release since 04 ...
    The new generation isn't what brings this about, it's Devs catering to the Adults who want 15 minute play sessions to be a viable as well as rewarding affair, that is the problem. It's these people that the F2PMMORPG market mostly targets in the first place, as they're the ones with the money to burn.
    Indeed, it seems that it's the parents of the "whiny soccer twats" that are the real problem.

    According to the latest ESA report, the average American gamer is now 35 years old... :D 
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    Umm...all the mmorpg i currently play has rng regarding whether my action would fail or not. A lot of times my abilities miss, using the basic attacks with very low damage miss a lot of time. So what exactly are you asking here? Is it about whether our crafting should have chance to fail? or our negotiation with npc vendor fail and we fail to sell items?

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Distopia said:
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , but the new Xbox generation of whiny soccer twats has made sure that everybody wins everything and gets there participation trophy ,that has dumbed down and wussified every release since 04 ...
    The new generation isn't what brings this about, it's Devs catering to the Adults who want 15 minute play sessions to be a viable as well as rewarding affair, that is the problem. It's these people that the F2PMMORPG market mostly targets in the first place, as they're the ones with the money to burn.

    Distopia said:
    Scorchien said:
    Yes , but the new Xbox generation of whiny soccer twats has made sure that everybody wins everything and gets there participation trophy ,that has dumbed down and wussified every release since 04 ...
    The new generation isn't what brings this about, it's Devs catering to the Adults who want 15 minute play sessions to be a viable as well as rewarding affair, that is the problem. It's these people that the F2PMMORPG market mostly targets in the first place, as they're the ones with the money to burn.
    Indeed, it seems that it's the parents of the "whiny soccer twats" that are the real problem.

    According to the latest ESA report, the average American gamer is now 35 years old... :D 
    So you realize the Xbox came out in 2001 which would put the xbox generation exactly where you 2(about 35 now +-)  erhmmm geniuses decide to overlook them ... and pass the buck .. aint that rich ..wtf
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Critical fails were intergrated in MMOs once, and yes, if you have critical success you must also have critical fails, anything else doesn't really make any sense.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited May 2016
    The chance to fail altogether is not only the way reality works, but the way traditional RPGs and everything they were based on worked as well.

    Yes, attempting something too hard should increase the chance to fail, but it shouldn't be the only time you fail.

    I think folks sometimes forget that RPGs were about a fantasy environment where your character was not subject to all of the mental and physical shortcomings of the player. That was handled by character stats. When an "RPG" becomes entirely about the player's mental acuity or dexterity, it risks becoming more of a normal game than a role playing game - at least in the traditional sense.
    aummoid


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Depends - I suggest - on what game you are playing / what the parameters are.

    PnP RPGs - usually - have a game master who interprets the dice roll. Critical if death exists; and even if there are options for bringing a party or characters back whether via clerics or clones or whatever death can mean the end of the gaming session.

    In a computer game where failure means you reload back to the last save or you have unlimited attempts or instant rez ..... the question becomes why bother.

    And the question also extends to PnP RPGs. D&D was pretty simplistic as far as systems went. If you wanted something more complex there were games like "Chivalry and Sorcery" or "Empireof the Petal Throne". Of course if you played C&S you might never get to the scene of the action ......

    Theres a thought. Maybe people who played D&D were whiners who only had a few hours to play and couldn't afford the weeks needed for a "proper" C&S style campaign! 

    So - to answer the OPs question - it depends.

    Games are entertainment. They are not real life.  Sometimes entertainment means being challenged; sometimes it means blasting mobs as an outlet for the frustrations of the day; sometimes it will means partaking in an unfolding story and so on. And there is no one size fits all. So sometimes having a chance of failure will be appropriate - and part of the entertainment; sometimes it will be pointless.

    Peter Dinklage asked what it was like acting with a dragon. Answer: they are not real you know. The point being we mustn't lose sight of what games are.


  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    If it is done like EQ1 or the old Muds then yes.  But I do not trust computer generated RNG.  It doesn't seem to be accurate and I'd much rather dice roll.  Most all mmo's today have completely ignored anything that might resemble missed attacks or failed spells.

    The old muds had first a concentration check and once that was passed it would go through a spell defense check.  So if you cast the spell then it would go against the saves of defender and if they failed then the spell landed.  However those spells were nasty like blind or sleep.  Imagine if blind or sleep was in mmo's today.

    Its kinda sad because I never got tired or bored of playing muds.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited May 2016
    Scorchien said:

    So you realize the Xbox came out in 2001 which would put the xbox generation exactly where you 2(about 35 now +-)  erhmmm geniuses decide to overlook them ... and pass the buck .. aint that rich ..wtf
    Errm you said "new xbox generation".... How in anyway are those OG-xbox players a new generation of gamers? Most of them would have been playing games since the Atari and Nintendo as I have..... As that is my age range (37).. They would have been the 20 somethings playing eq/daoc/SWG..etc.. Again how is that a "new" generation? These people  would have experienced some of the creme of the crop as far as RPG's go, NWN, NWN2, Morrowind, BG 1+2, Icewind Dale, etc, etc, etc... Which for me as an example shaped my opinion of what makes for a good RPG/MMORPG.. 

    Those people aren't the problem with MMORPGs, it's the old folks (non gamers) who came into the genre with WOW, who thought everything took too much time, that have brought about this nonsense. Not core gamers who would have been around for the OG xbox. Nor younger folks who have oodles of free time.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,749
    Yep, fumbles are fum! N. Eh, nevermind :wink: 
    My favourite 1 is Leo's book-stabbing in Dorkness rising (hey, it's prone, and got a spine, so why not? :wink: )
    https://youtu.be/iUNFhR3LaLI?t=2m53s

    Jokes aside, I think it would cause too much additional load in an online game to do every time an extra check (even if it's just a yes/no, and not a full chart), and beyond combat it would be straigth annoying. Click mount - damn, the stupid fell off... click mount again. If not die from the fell, it's just a waste of time.

    In combat it would have more relevance, but still, there are easier ways to add some fumble moments into combat than do a check at every skill activation... An incoming crit from a boss could be considered as a fumble with the parry roll for example. So in a sense it's already there.

    Backfiring skills, now that's a funny thing, in a p'n'p we got wiped once because of a fumbled spell put a stone skin on the enemy :wink:  Could be nice in games, but only with some control over it, because in an online game it could cause a lot of trouble, especially if it happens in a place with a cooldown of a couple days. Maybe it was fine back in the days, but not today.

    CO has a mechanic where your nemesis' henchmans randomly jumps on you, you can see that as a fumble... It's a pain in the butt when happens in a tight situation.
    TSW has a similar one with the bounty hunter, I got killed once in a Lair because on of the group members got the BH spawned and at first it's like a random new add, so it aggroed me, from behind, all I saw was the HP dropping way too fast for some reason... not wiped the whole group just two of us, but still - it's definitely not an additional thrill, just plain annoyance. Was to them as well, I heal :wink:
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited May 2016
    I dont see it that way .. first there are only 2 generations of  pc gamers basically at this point ....That can be tied to X Box generation... The Old and the new .. So yea the new Xbox generation , unless you are considering a generation that is currently in the womb or pre school ...

          And the old school gamers were pretty happy ... It was after Wow and the X box generation started filtering into the MMO genre that the whining started ... Because they werent used to the old school MMo mechaincs in there console games .... ANd there numbers grew in the MMO genre .. And the New xbox generation was now the vocal majority , that forced the devs hands into  the dumbing down ..
      And yea i started in the 80s on a C64 like many .. but the reality is there are only 2 generations of pc  gamers at this point ..

      You say you were part of that Eq/SWG /UO DAOC ..   Were you or your guild mates friends , any of them pissing and moaning for things to easier and faster ...............  I dont recall any of mine doing so .. Thru all of those games ... and many others AC /AO etc ... players werent whining on forums for easy .. it was after Wow and the Xbox generation took over the genre...

      And to add , i am hoping that BM and Pantheon team stick to there vision and not cave to the whiners , and deliver us an old school challenge ...

      I still remember when Vanguard released and altho it had its technical prblems for many .. Excluding those it was a great experience ... Until the whining started ... We want instant travel wahh and ruined an entire spectrum of the game as SHip building and travel became obsolete , An then .. Wahhh we cant tell if that mob can beat us ... we want big colored dots over there heads so i can know if i will win .. wahhh lmfao .. so pathetic ...
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    Scorchien said:

      You say you were part of that Eq/SWG /UO DAOC ..   Were you or your guild mates friends , any of them pissing and moaning for things to easier and faster ...............
    Faster yes, easier no as they were pretty easy already. Easily easy as todays MMOs.

    Now subscriptions are no longer required to play the vast majority of games, devs don't need to drag out the dumb dumb like the older games did.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Scorchien said:
    I dont see it that way .. first there are only 2 generations of  pc gamers basically at this point ....That can be tied to X Box generation... The Old and the new .. So yea the new Xbox generation , unless you are considering a generation that is currently in the womb or pre school ...

          And the old school gamers were pretty happy ... It was after Wow and the X box generation started filtering into the MMO genre that the whining started ... Because they werent used to the old school MMo mechaincs in there console games .... ANd there numbers grew in the MMO genre .. And the New xbox generation was now the vocal majority , that forced the devs hands into  the dumbing down ..
      And yea i started in the 80s on a C64 like many .. but the reality is there are only 2 generations of pc  gamers at this point ..

      You say you were part of that Eq/SWG /UO DAOC ..   Were you or your guild mates friends , any of them pissing and moaning for things to easier and faster ...............  I dont recall any of mine doing so .. Thru all of those games ... and many others AC /AO etc ... players werent whining on forums for easy .. it was after Wow and the Xbox generation took over the genre...

      And to add , i am hoping that BM and Pantheon team stick to there vision and not cave to the whiners , and deliver us an old school challenge ...

      I still remember when Vanguard released and altho it had its technical prblems for many .. Excluding those it was a great experience ... Until the whining started ... We want instant travel wahh and ruined an entire spectrum of the game as SHip building and travel became obsolete , An then .. Wahhh we cant tell if that mob can beat us ... we want big colored dots over there heads so i can know if i will win .. wahhh lmfao .. so pathetic ...
    The only old school title I felt was over the top was L2, it was much more grindy than L1, DAOC, of Shadowbane.

    Orherwise it wasn't until I played vanilla WOW that I realized things could be more convenient. Vanilla WOW wasn't all that easy,  npcs could aggro from long ranges if your level was much lower and they would kill you quick.  Early dungeons weren't face rolls and I remember many a corpse run in WOWs earlier days.

    In fact my first character, a Paladin took 16 days played across 3 or so months to get to max level.

    When I started a fresh Warrior in  returning for Cataclysm it was only 4 days played across 1 month, and I realized WOW had grown far too easy. (I had quit just before BC launch)

    I certainly didn't ask for this design change but apparently "the market" did in order to get to "end game " more rapidly.

    For me once the simplified, smaller group rinse and repeat gear grind started it really was the end game for me.


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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Scorchien said:
    I dont see it that way .. first there are only 2 generations of  pc gamers basically at this point ....That can be tied to X Box generation... The Old and the new .. So yea the new Xbox generation , unless you are considering a generation that is currently in the womb or pre school ...

          And the old school gamers were pretty happy ... It was after Wow and the X box generation started filtering into the MMO genre that the whining started ... Because they werent used to the old school MMo mechaincs in there console games .... ANd there numbers grew in the MMO genre .. And the New xbox generation was now the vocal majority , that forced the devs hands into  the dumbing down ..
      And yea i started in the 80s on a C64 like many .. but the reality is there are only 2 generations of pc  gamers at this point ..

      You say you were part of that Eq/SWG /UO DAOC ..   Were you or your guild mates friends , any of them pissing and moaning for things to easier and faster ...............  I dont recall any of mine doing so .. Thru all of those games ... and many others AC /AO etc ... players werent whining on forums for easy .. it was after Wow and the Xbox generation took over the genre...

      And to add , i am hoping that BM and Pantheon team stick to there vision and not cave to the whiners , and deliver us an old school challenge ...

      I still remember when Vanguard released and altho it had its technical prblems for many .. Excluding those it was a great experience ... Until the whining started ... We want instant travel wahh and ruined an entire spectrum of the game as SHip building and travel became obsolete , An then .. Wahhh we cant tell if that mob can beat us ... we want big colored dots over there heads so i can know if i will win .. wahhh lmfao .. so pathetic ...
     None of my guildies I recall complained about things needing to be easier, most including myself were rather pissed when they started dumbing the mechanics of games we played down (especially in the case of SWG). That or started turning the focus of games into gear grinds (as an endgame activity) (DAOC). Which really didn't start happening until post WOW. 

    That said I feel the OG XBOX was probably a good stepping stone for many folks guiding them to deeper more engrossing PC games (compared to other consoles at the time). After all it did have titles like Morrowind, KOTOR, Shenmue2 etc.. Compared to things that were on the playstation it was a different level of complexity in game-play options/systems. 



    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550
    I can't remember what game it was, but I failed at something and it totally stopped the game for me I literally had to start the whole game over.  I think it was a lowbie thing so it wasn't that big of a deal.
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