How Will Pantheon Protect Against Hackers And Cheaters?

Gyva02

As I roll over these forums I see Black Desert is turning into another Archeage hacker fest and it got me thinking about how will Pantheon fair with hackers and the like. I'd have to think that since Pantheon is going to be tab target and not a twitch action game they'll be able to keep everything server side to help prevent this from happening, Right?

Nothing helps to ruin a game and its economy faster than hackers and cheaters. I'm hoping if it were to happen here that accounts would be banned along with paypal address's and CC numbers also being banned. Has this been brought up by the Pantheon team yet?  

Sovrath

I believe I watched a video showing that most of the game was server side. However no game is hack proof. 

waynejr2

There will be people who cheat.  It will happen.  Get use to it.   That doesn't mean throw your hands up and not do anything, it just means people need to get realistic and stop crying about it.

Gdemami

Gyva02 said:

As I roll over these forums I see Black Desert is turning into another Archeage hacker fest and it got me thinking about how will Pantheon fair with hackers and the like. I'd have to think that since Pantheon is going to be tab target and not a twitch action game they'll be able to keep everything server side to help prevent this from happening, Right?

Nothing helps to ruin a game and its economy faster than hackers and cheaters. I'm hoping if it were to happen here that accounts would be banned along with paypal address's and CC numbers also being banned. Has this been brought up by the Pantheon team yet?  

How? Like any half-decent developer.

You need good software engineer, the rest is just following secure coding standards.

Hrimnir

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

Kxelem

yeah we had discussed this a while back, something to keep an eye on for sure

http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2887/this-will-kill-pantheon-i-fear

SpottyGekko

Hrimnir said:

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

Perhaps the "sloppy technical design" we're seeing so often in games lately is a side-effect of the F2P and B2P monetization. 

Companies trying to cut corners in every conceivable way to keep production and running costs as low as possible, given that the revenue generated by the Cash Shop is highly unpredictable....

Darkcrystal

Hrimnir said:

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

ROFL. by that comment, tells me you know  nothing about  game development... Please research or to school study it, better yet make a game...  These comments make people look silly when they make these comments, if that was the case most would do it...  I won't go into full detail because it will make someone like you head explode..  

PS : I hate when people make silly comments, when they never made a game or never worked with Networking.  

Nilden

They can literally prevent these client side hacks by having the data server side. It's just crappy programming.

Gyva02

Darkcrystal said:

Hrimnir said:

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

ROFL. by that comment, tells me you know  nothing about  game development... Please research or to school study it, better yet make a game...  These comments make people look silly when they make these comments, if that was the case most would do it...  I won't go into full detail because it will make someone like you head explode..  

PS : I hate when people make silly comments, when they never made a game or never worked with Networking.  

I won't hold you responsible if my head explodes, I promise. 

Can you enlighten us as to how a game could be made to lessen its ability to be hacked? 

ololulu

Darkcrystal said:

Hrimnir said:

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

ROFL. by that comment, tells me you know  nothing about  game development... Please research or to school study it, better yet make a game...  These comments make people look silly when they make these comments, if that was the case most would do it...  I won't go into full detail because it will make someone like you head explode..  

PS : I hate when people make silly comments, when they never made a game or never worked with Networking.  

I think you forgot one dot.

Wizardry

Constant on the fly client side checks and not just file size checks.This cannot be done efficiently so needs to check a few areas at a time around the clock.
Ban proxies,allow only 2 ip addresses to login needing a phone call to change or add.Perma bans for cheats.They are NOT allowed to buy another copy and login from said address and without proxies or changes,they are done for.Also check the machine ID to ban the machine.

Even better,ban that machine/address/phone number from all games from the developer.Works really good if a giant like Blizzard.They would need a new machine,new IP provider and new phone number and new home address to get back into the game.

Adjuvant1

I asked these kinds of questions, long ago, about the realities of these lower-budget, crowdfunded online games. People just kinda didn't bother with an answer. It's not just game integrity, but also account information, personal information, which we've seen in the past to be accessible on even the most trusted systems.

Is a person, who really wants and knows how to get in, going to get in? Sure, eventually, but the matter here is degree. Will the company have staff dedicated to server and account security, at all, on a few hundred thousand, or even a few million dollar budget? Will those people be good at their jobs? We hope so, but it's not entirely realistic.

The most likely answer for most of these projects is, they "do what they can". That ambiguous answer is about all you can expect, no frills, no guarantees.

edit: Fun fact for perspective, real-time global internet attack map.

http://map.norsecorp.com/#/

svann

Hrimnir said:

It's pretty hard to make an MMO that's not 99% hack/cheat proof.  Seriously.  The Division is a special case because A. The Developers wen't cheapass on paying for resources like bandwidth, and B. Consequently made a terrible client side ad hoc style network that allows for all sorts of stupid hacks and cheats.

A good MMO keeps as much server side as humanly possible.  Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics.

Every mmo has had hack/cheaters.  I call bs.

Pepeq

All you need to do is state that your server or game is unhackable and the hackers will challenge you.  Honestly the only real way to quash cheating is to eliminate the people who you don't know from the equation.  LAN parties and private servers are the best solution to maintaining a community with a similar goal/mindset.  Of course, you're not going to be able to gouge your friends on the AH or be a dick in the battlegrounds, so there is a gameplay change in the mix as well.

Slapshot1188

Honestly as a pure PvE game I am much less concerned about hacking than in a PvP one.  Yes it will happen, and yes it can impact the economy, but the devs will eventually catch and punish the offenders.

Hrimnir

@svann ; Do you not know or understand what 99% means.  I didn't say cheatproof or hackproof, I said 99% cheatproof of hackproof.  Yes, every MMO has hackers and cheaters, however the ones where it is widespread (like BDO and Division) are because of badly designed netcode and what they have processing on the client vs the server.

Also, most of the hacks/cheats that exist in MMO's are things like item duping, or teleporting around the world, which is extremely easy for the developers to catch and police.

WoW even at it's height, hacking and cheating wasn't even a blip on the radar.

MMO's are in a unique position compared to other games because they can process the majority of things server side, which is why they are traditionally less prone to cheats than other games like FPS.

@darkcrystal Let's for the moment assume I do know "nothing", and take that as gospel.  Would you say Glenn Fiedler know's nothing? You know the guy who was the lead network programmer on several major Sony games? Read this and then get back to me.

http://gafferongames.com/2016/04/25/never-trust-the-client/

svann

Hrimnir said:

@svann ; Do you not know or understand what 99% means.  I didn't say cheatproof or hackproof, I said 99% cheatproof of hackproof.  Yes, every MMO has hackers and cheaters, however the ones where it is widespread (like BDO and Division) are because of badly designed netcode and what they have processing on the client vs the server.

Also, most of the hacks/cheats that exist in MMO's are things like item duping, or teleporting around the world, which is extremely easy for the developers to catch and police.

WoW even at it's height, hacking and cheating wasn't even a blip on the radar.

I know thats not true.  As recently as mists of pandaria there were people "flying" in areas where you werent allowed to fly and people teleporting from node to node.  Your claim of 99% cheatproof is vastly exaggerated.

Scott23

svann said:

Hrimnir said:

@svann ; Do you not know or understand what 99% means.  I didn't say cheatproof or hackproof, I said 99% cheatproof of hackproof.  Yes, every MMO has hackers and cheaters, however the ones where it is widespread (like BDO and Division) are because of badly designed netcode and what they have processing on the client vs the server.

Also, most of the hacks/cheats that exist in MMO's are things like item duping, or teleporting around the world, which is extremely easy for the developers to catch and police.

WoW even at it's height, hacking and cheating wasn't even a blip on the radar.

I know thats not true.  As recently as mists of pandaria there were people "flying" in areas where you werent allowed to fly and people teleporting from node to node.  Your claim of 99% cheatproof is vastly exaggerated.

Not saying where I stand on the subject, but 1% does not mean that you don't see it or that it isn't noticeable.  It just means that it isn't easy to do.  Now if you believe that every person that is cheating designed their own cheats... well I have a bridge for you

svann

Scott23 said:

svann said:

Hrimnir said:

@svann ; Do you not know or understand what 99% means.  I didn't say cheatproof or hackproof, I said 99% cheatproof of hackproof.  Yes, every MMO has hackers and cheaters, however the ones where it is widespread (like BDO and Division) are because of badly designed netcode and what they have processing on the client vs the server.

Also, most of the hacks/cheats that exist in MMO's are things like item duping, or teleporting around the world, which is extremely easy for the developers to catch and police.

WoW even at it's height, hacking and cheating wasn't even a blip on the radar.

I know thats not true.  As recently as mists of pandaria there were people "flying" in areas where you werent allowed to fly and people teleporting from node to node.  Your claim of 99% cheatproof is vastly exaggerated.

Not saying where I stand on the subject, but 1% does not mean that you don't see it or that it isn't noticeable.  It just means that it isn't easy to do.  Now if you believe that every person that is cheating designed their own cheats... well I have a bridge for you

He said:
"Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics."

If that was true there would truly be no cheats.  No mmo does that because it wouldnt work and even 1% of the population cheating is evidence enough that his statement is bs.  He may be backpedaling now but that was his original position that I take issue with.

Alders

Slapshot1188 said:

Honestly as a pure PvE game I am much less concerned about hacking than in a PvP one.  Yes it will happen, and yes it can impact the economy, but the devs will eventually catch and punish the offenders.

Years of experience playing a PVE game filled with bots, hacks, and cheats tells me otherwise.

You can't prevent this stuff, you can only police it. Full time GM's for every server are needed. What was the last game you played that had those? It's been awhile for me.

Dullahan

svann said:

Scott23 said:

svann said:

Hrimnir said:

@svann ; Do you not know or understand what 99% means.  I didn't say cheatproof or hackproof, I said 99% cheatproof of hackproof.  Yes, every MMO has hackers and cheaters, however the ones where it is widespread (like BDO and Division) are because of badly designed netcode and what they have processing on the client vs the server.

Also, most of the hacks/cheats that exist in MMO's are things like item duping, or teleporting around the world, which is extremely easy for the developers to catch and police.

WoW even at it's height, hacking and cheating wasn't even a blip on the radar.

I know thats not true.  As recently as mists of pandaria there were people "flying" in areas where you werent allowed to fly and people teleporting from node to node.  Your claim of 99% cheatproof is vastly exaggerated.

Not saying where I stand on the subject, but 1% does not mean that you don't see it or that it isn't noticeable.  It just means that it isn't easy to do.  Now if you believe that every person that is cheating designed their own cheats... well I have a bridge for you

He said:
"Quite literally the only thing that should be being done on the client is to render the graphics."

If that was true there would truly be no cheats.  No mmo does that because it wouldnt work and even 1% of the population cheating is evidence enough that his statement is bs.  He may be backpedaling now but that was his original position that I take issue with.

Actually, that is a totally realistic goal, it would indeed stop cheating and its also the direction that things are headed in.

The reason games don't do it now is because of latency. The more your game revolves around twitch mechanics and action combat, the more it suffers from server side code. That is the reason fps games are the most hacked. Go play CS Go for one day. I bet you won't play for more than an hour before you come across a cheater.

On the other hand, in an mmorpg where action combat is less involved, its entirely possible to avoid a lot of hacking by keeping things server side.

Distopia

waynejr2 said:

There will be people who cheat.  It will happen.  Get use to it.   That doesn't mean throw your hands up and not do anything, it just means people need to get realistic and stop crying about it.

Basically this, as with anything with people involved, you simply have to take the good with the bad. Cases like DBO are rare in the MMORPG world, the vast majority are simply "ruined" in terms of economy. Which has never really had an impact on my enjoyment of a game. 

In the end the more open a game is, as well as the more freedom the players have, the more creative players get in finding was to game the system. That's just something you have to accept as a gamer, shake your head, report and move on when you come across an obvious hack/cheat/exploit. Anything more is nothing but an exercise in frustration. You're going to lose that fight every time. You're never going to get that perfectly fair environment you want.

Hrimnir

@svann I can't quote from this browser, but I just wanted to touch on your points.

First, I have done and will do 0 backpedaling.  I don't think you guys realize how much 1% actually is.  That means that you're going to seriously try to tell me that for every 100 people you saw in a game like WoW that 1 of them of them was warping around and duplicating loot, etc etc?

Come on.  Let's be real here.  I remember warhammer online had a big scandal because people figure out a way to get inside a particular keep without going through the gates, and this is on a PVP game where people attempt to hack and cheat VASTLY more than PVE games, and the developers said it was only about a dozen people out of a server of over 1500.

Again, none of us have any hard data, but I'm basing my statements off of interviews and things with developers like Scott Hartsman, Mark Jacobs, etc etc.

Most of the time you saw large scale cheating was when a patch released and due to a bug people were able to dup items or gold, etc, and that stuff was caught, rolled back, and those people banned, within days, sometimes hours of it happening.

Normal "day to day" cheating and hacking in MMO's is borderline nonexistent.

Also, look up what the meaning of the words "Should" and "pretty much" are.  They are not absolutes. Yes, obviously clients do more than they SHOULD be (look at division for examples of why this is bad), and as Dullahan said, network infrastructure is a large part of that issue.

For the record I also "literally said":

"MMO's are in a unique position compared to other games because they can process the majority of things server side, which is why they are traditionally less prone to cheats than other games like FPS."

Combine that with my previous statements when I said they SHOULD only be doing the graphics processing client side, and the picture is much more clear as to what I was actually saying, not what you try to portray me as saying by taking my statements out of context.

Scott23

Alders said:

 

Years of experience playing a PVE game filled with bots, hacks, and cheats tells me otherwise.

You can't prevent this stuff, you can only police it. Full time GM's for every server are needed. What was the last game you played that had those? It's been awhile for me.

You know?  That is a good question.  EQ seemed to have decent coverage back in the day - the 2 times in 6 years I needed a GM they were fairly responsive (I seem to remember within half an hour to an hour).  I don't think I have needed one since in any of the other games I have played.  I don't count spammers, gold sellers, and cheaters since they do not affect my experience.

Wizardry

This is true,i can attest to once upon a time SOE had really good GM response and effort.
I have NEVER had good gm support from anywhere else.
MOST developers really don't give a crap,they care more about spending money on advertising than running their actual game.

people are not being honest at all when critiquing developers,none of them care one bit about you,they care about themselves and would steal every last dollar from you if they could.You think these devs are sitting at home thinking ..."you know we really sold those suckers a crap effort,let's make it up to them".Nope they are thinking of more ways to grind money from your wallet and doing as little to get it as possible.
Point being ...HOW??Pantheon is not working or caring about game hacks right now and won't ever until the fanbase or supporters start complaining.It doesn't need be a lynch mob type complaining,just a simple .."we want to see you show some effort BEFORE it all happens" and not AFTER the fact.