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Fuzzy Math scares me

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  • howstupidisthishowstupidisthis Member UncommonPosts: 147
    edited May 2016
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    [mod eit]
    This NEVER ceases to amaze me.
    You guess complain and ask why we defend Chis, and when we throw that same logic back at you, it suddenly becomes trolling??
    [mod edit]
    Post edited by Amana on
  • howstupidisthishowstupidisthis Member UncommonPosts: 147
    Adjuvant1 said:
    Right. Remember, kids, if you see something wrong, or if you see someone doing something you think is wrong, just shut up about it. Allow everyone who comes along after you to fall into traps and other bad situations. It's really none of your business.
    Not if you can prove it's a trap, otherwise it's the same a yelling fire when there is none.
    Not cool man
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
    This NEVER ceases to amaze me.
    You guess complain and ask why we defend Chis, and when we throw that same logic back at you, it suddenly becomes trolling??
    Unreal, do me a favor and ignore me, don't reply to be ever again....geez!

    But you're not.
    I was talking about Roberts, there's nothing personal in it towards you.
    In response you are trying to make this personal, making assumptions about me, about my life etc.

    That's why.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,196
    edited May 2016

    ""Roberts hasn't released a game in some 20 odd years."

    yeah, stupid guy was off making movies and stuff, what a jerk!
    /sarcasm"


    You have absolutely no idea what Roberts did on/for those movies.  Just like you have no idea what he really did in his gaming career.


    Stan Lee is listed as executive producer on all the Marvel movies.  Want to guess how involved he was?


    The problem with believing any of the Roberts' pronouncements (ie, fuzzy math), is that he has a blazing track record of announcing things that he doesn't manage to deliver on.   While you can wait for another three or four years, hoping that it will all work out, I wouldn't put any money in this thing until there's a real, delivered game.  


    You think it's a forgone conclusion, I think that even Erin Roberts skills won't be enough to fill the hole that his brother has dug.


    ((Sorry, quotes function apparantly isn't working for me right now.))

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Erillion said:
    So ... instead of fuzzy math we are back to the same ole same ole ....

    Same people, same arguments, same result....

    deja vu

    in every SC thread.


    Have fun
    Some people come in "cold", unacquainted with the previous months of discussion. Maybe we can just make some official faq.
  • howstupidisthishowstupidisthis Member UncommonPosts: 147
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
    This NEVER ceases to amaze me.
    You guess complain and ask why we defend Chis, and when we throw that same logic back at you, it suddenly becomes trolling??
    Unreal, do me a favor and ignore me, don't reply to be ever again....geez!

    But you're not.
    I was talking about Roberts, there's nothing personal in it towards you.
    In response you are trying to make this personal, making assumptions about me, about my life etc.

    That's why.
    And my comment wasnt personal towards you either and I'm still not making it personal.
    My question is as valid as yours.
    You asked why we defend him like we do, and I asked you why you hate him like you do.
    Please explain how that is "making it personal"?!?!?!?!?
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Erillion said:
    So ... instead of fuzzy math we are back to the same ole same ole ....
    Same people, same arguments, same result....
    deja vu
    in every SC thread.
    Have fun

    I agree, a lot of problems in these threads is how people deal with percieved criticism of the project.
    It seems to get taken personally and then it just escalates.
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
    You people characterize anyone defending CiG as a brainwashed white knight yet when someone reverses the argument he is just a troll baiting people into emotional (lol ?) responses....

    Do you have difficulties controlling your emotions ? Most people leave such difficulties behind when they graduate from high school.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Shodanas said:
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
    You people characterize anyone defending CiG as a brainwashed white knight yet when someone reverses the argument he is just a troll baiting people into emotional (lol ?) responses....

    Do you have difficulties controlling your emotions ? Most people leave such difficulties behind when they graduate from high school.

    Please don't throw around the "you people"...
    I have my own concerns about this project that are quite different from a lot of the complaints on these forums, moreover I tend to not voice these concerns nor repeat the typical concerns that get aired here, so less of the "you people" would be much appreciated.

    I feel like this is a role-reversal. If someone is at all critical then the easy response is to slap a form of your comment on them. I don't talk about whiteknights, I don't talk about brainwashed people, I try to be respectful especially where respect is reciprocated, if I do make a comment about a bit too much faith (which is rare) then I try to add a smiley to show it's partly in jest.

    I don't get personal unless I am being treated that way. Yourself and a couple of others seem to try and get personal. That's a sign of emotion to me, instead of sticking with the topic it becomes about "your side" and "their side", that seems about as emotional as can be.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited May 2016
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
    This NEVER ceases to amaze me.
    You guess complain and ask why we defend Chis, and when we throw that same logic back at you, it suddenly becomes trolling??
    Unreal, do me a favor and ignore me, don't reply to be ever again....geez!

    But you're not.
    I was talking about Roberts, there's nothing personal in it towards you.
    In response you are trying to make this personal, making assumptions about me, about my life etc.

    That's why.
    And my comment wasnt personal towards you either and I'm still not making it personal.
    My question is as valid as yours.
    You asked why we defend him like we do, and I asked you why you hate him like you do.
    Please explain how that is "making it personal"?!?!?!?!?

    You started talking about the origin of my supposed "hate" and how it might be a reflection of my personal life. That's trying to make things about me rather than the topic at hand, thus personal.

    Asking why he is defended was rhetorical. I had no interest in anyone's response to that, what followed was purely an airing of opinion about a subject not the seeking of feedback or understanding.
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Well it's not at all different than the tactic of making as many baseless accusations as you can, then as we address one accusation, you to bring up another, under the guise of a "concerned citizen".
    When you get called out on it, then you play the victim, and the cycle continues.
    Nice try  :)
     
    I have no idea what you are on about. I stated a few things about Roberts' history - the majority of which are factual and can be easily verified and yet somehow they are "making as many baseless accusations as you can..."

    Very amusing, keep up the good work!
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Erillion said:
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Non one calls Chris Roberts a Messiah.

    He has his quirks and drawbacks, like everyone. Micro-management being one of it. Over optimism being another, one he shares with Peter Molyneaux.

    But in my personal opinion Chris Roberts is one of a rare breed: a visionary. Someone that has a complete idea in his mind and can inspire others to make - together - the idea a reality. Make no mistakes - visionaries can be stressful bosses to work for. Not satisfied with quick-n-easy, cheap,  pragmatic solutions.

    Peter Molyneaux is also a visionary, Richard Garriott, Sid Meier... Or if we look to other industries ... Elon Musk, Steve Jobs RIP, Jeff Bezos...

    But without visionaries .... we would not have this conversation .... over the world wide web in a browser .....invented in a small nondescript room in CERN with a plaque right beside the door by a ... you guessed it ... visionary.


    Have fun
    I think you missed the point he was trying to make.  I see what is happening and why this game has so many haters.  It has to do with the people who refuse to see anything as a wrong decision.  I mean really?  When you cannot admit that something is a wrong decision or can't even bring yourself to admit that they might have made a wrong decision.  That causes people to go extreme measures and become the polar opposite.  So now you end up with a group who cannot say anything good about the project and another group who refuse to see anything that might be considered negative and well you end up with this....  It is sad really but how can you take anyone seriously who act like this.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Babuinix said:
    filmoret said:
    filmoret said:
    Babuinix said:
    Well I guess you haven't been keeping up with news about PG in Star Citizen :)

    - Think about PG planets with atmosphere, oceans, mountains, jungles looking like a Crysis.
    - PG Asteroids in huge sizes with caves, tunnels, abandoned outposts.
    - Volumetric Gas giants etc
    That is a lot of work.  Did they list that anywhere in the stretch goals?  This is the kind of answers that should be more clear to people asking simple questions.  I guess they could have added that stuff later probably would have been a lot easier.
    Is there anyone who can help prove or disprove this?  I would love some links as to when they decided to go with this kind of build instead of something else.
    It's been talked ever since the German Office opened.

    To cut a long story short:
    Basically what happened was when CIG were joined by the ex-Crytek dev's in 2015 (Foundry42 Frankfurt) they got themselves access to new groundbreaking tech that was developed on the side by them and that very few people knew about because they never had the need/opportunity to use them in their past games (consoles limitations, free2plays fps's, linear stuff etc). We are talking about top top cryengine engineers, and when I say top it's the cream of the crop as in some of the original dev's that wrote the original code from CryEngine, well they even wrote the first concept drafts on paper. We are talking about Marco Corbetta, Carsten Wenzel and other's. CryEngine is their baby basically and they are now pushing it further than anyone can imagine. For more insight check 10FTDevs with Sean Tracy & Brian Chambers interviews.

    @ 37:31

    @ 27:00

    Then we have other top guys like Caleb Essex in VFX, Chris Raine in Physics, Francesco in AI etc.

    I think they might show something really significant in their CitizenCon Event in October.
    Ok you are making sense.  I just don't understand why after asking this question repeatedly there was noone who could answer it.  Which makes me think it isn't clearly portrayed by CIG and well since it is causing problems I would think they would make it front lines.  The things people are having problems are quite simple.  1.  Why is it taking longer then it should.   2.  Where did the decision come from to make it take longer?  3.  Why is it costing a lot more then was originally quoted?  I think its logical to think of these things and equally logical to make it very clear on CIG's website for anyone trying to find such answers.  I was told several times that the scope had changed but noone was able to tell me how or why.  

    From the answers I have collected from forum users.  It has to do with the 64 bit transition which caused scope and cost to skyrocket.  And they also decided to do much more detail for planets and asteroids.  This makes sense to me but I still cannot find such information on CIG's website about how this boosted cost and how this delayed production.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    filmoret said:



    From the answers I have collected from forum users.  It has to do with the 64 bit transition which caused scope and cost to skyrocket.  And they also decided to do much more detail for planets and asteroids.  This makes sense to me but I still cannot find such information on CIG's website about how this boosted cost and how this delayed production.
    It lengthened it because they still havent figured it all out yet despite the claims. I can sit here and read everything these guys say and I can also sit here and make my claim it isnt going to happen. They might get SOME of it working, enough to maybe sucker a few more million over the next few months as they switch focus fully to SQ 42 (even though they said that already).

    But youre not going to find any answers to questions that matter.

    They did the math, I can accept they got that much right, I do not accept the fact they got 64 bit to work the way they intend it to in any way shape or form. Can they implement SOME 64 bit processes? Yes of course so can every other group out there, that was never the issue, the issue was HOW they said they were going to do it, and thats where everyone gets confused, even the guys trying to defend them because they dont know the difference either. Ironically I had to explain it out, and then the guy made the video, which said basically what I said about 3 hours before it got posted. Although he explained the math better and used another game (with a different approach) to explain it on another level, but IMO that simply confused more people and it didnt explain what Star Citizen had planned, mostly because even he, like myself, said it was all speculation and based on what they said they were going to do and what was realistically possible with that approach. Thats guys video said nothing to support Roberts or Star Citizen and it most definitely didnt say they could do it, it in fact said (almost) exactly what I had said that same morning yet every white knight took that video as a defense of Star Citizen while what I said was taken as an attack. It doesnt take a genius to see these guys really dont know what theyre talking about.

    Now if you go read all the stuff they posted in their monthly update it all sounds great, but so does everything else they have written or spoken in the past. So therefore it now has come to seeing is believing. The pro camp still is believing everything they say. And they probably always will.

    But even in the face of all their hyperbole, rhetoric and positive spin I remain confident that we wont see anything major in terms of persistence for months. Will they be able to save reputation, damage and stats (if there are any)?  Well I would hope so, but will they be able to save every single data point (and anything that is occupying it) in a 64 bit game world, not F--ing hardly, and they might never be able to do that. So thats the stuff these guys dont understand when it comes to having a persistent world, its one thing to save character data its another to save every bit of data in the game (that is constantly changing).

    So no you wont be getting any answers to those questions because for one they cant answer them and for another they cant even think of an answer that would sound right that couldnt be picked apart by people who do know what theyre talking about. So they keep it all positive and tow the 'we are working on it and its really close' mantra, just like they did with Star Marine right up until they eventually had to cancel it, and then after a few months they came out and said 'no no we made it like we always said we would' as if they thought a year or so removed would make people forget what they claimed.

    The patterns are all there, and the guy who broke it all down in a post awhile back had it perfectly outlined. If this were the FIRST time stuff like this had happened you could give them a break maybe but its basically the 4th or however many projects he has done time (because it happens in 100% of the stuff he does).

    But like I said it falls on what they have claimed and what they are goin to deliver I will give them some leeway until they start delaying this stuff again or changing focus.
  • DrakmarDrakmar Member UncommonPosts: 22
    Adjuvant1 said:
    Right. Remember, kids, if you see something wrong, or if you see someone doing something you think is wrong, just shut up about it. Allow everyone who comes along after you to fall into traps and other bad situations. It's really none of your business.
    Well usually, when you see something wrong and you call it out as such, you should be prepared to justify it as wrong by providing facts, as to why it's wrong, you know real facts, plain substantiated facts...


  • adamlotus75adamlotus75 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    I don know about you, but these new arrivals have sure changed my mind about CIG and SC.  its almost as if the RSI forums sent over a bus of their most devout heroes.  So persuasive! 

    Where do i spend $1000 on a ship?!
This discussion has been closed.