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Fuzzy Math scares me

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  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    Coop ? Star Marine? lol? Non backers try even harder than backers. So hard to stretch arguments when you have none.

    Game is a work in progress I think anyone can agree on that, if some can't handle it it's their problem, funding keeps rising, game art/mechanics/features keep being added for all to see, rest it's just gibberish.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Non one calls Chris Roberts a Messiah.

    He has his quirks and drawbacks, like everyone. Micro-management being one of it. Over optimism being another, one he shares with Peter Molyneaux.

    But in my personal opinion Chris Roberts is one of a rare breed: a visionary. Someone that has a complete idea in his mind and can inspire others to make - together - the idea a reality. Make no mistakes - visionaries can be stressful bosses to work for. Not satisfied with quick-n-easy, cheap,  pragmatic solutions.

    Peter Molyneaux is also a visionary, Richard Garriott, Sid Meier... Or if we look to other industries ... Elon Musk, Steve Jobs RIP, Jeff Bezos...

    But without visionaries .... we would not have this conversation .... over the world wide web in a browser .....invented in a small nondescript room in CERN with a plaque right beside the door by a ... you guessed it ... visionary.


    Have fun
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    edited May 2016
    I'm not sure I'd call him a visionary, not now anyway. The first Wing Commander was a leap and that deserves all the praise it gets, in the same way that Braben and Bell's Elite was a leap.
    Since then it has been iterations of a proven product, is that visionary or is that what some people would call a one trick pony. When you're only working with the same genre and only using the same recipe then visionary is a stretch.

    Freelancer was meant to be the next big thing, the game changer, and while it was okay it was far from all it was supposed to be. And now Star Citizen is meant to be everything that Freeelancer couldn't be, so in other words, another iteration. Squadron 42 taking all of its cues from the proven product of yesteryear, another iteration...

    Visionary is up for grabs here in my opinion and he certainly doesn't fit in with notables like Jobs, Musk who have repeatedly proven that they can walk the walk.

    But then what do I know, I'm not into idolisation and/or faith anyway :)


  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?
    They are concerned consumers, mindful about the crowdfunding scene which, according to them, SC will bring down crashing.

    Furthermore, it is well known that we who gave our cash to CIG are absolutely incapable of safeguarding our interests. So, these knight - protectors - activists took it upon themselves to deliver us from our stupor.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    You can say he was a visionary in cinematic games, yes he focused on the genre he liked (space operas) because it all came down to seing Star Wars as a kid, just like many of its early backers they have that passion in comon.

    This video illustrates that quite well.



  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?
    Lol that's cute. You might want to do a little introspection of yourself if you think this is anger and if you start accusing others about their lives.
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,607
    Babuinix said:
    Coop ? Star Marine? lol? Non backers try even harder than backers. So hard to stretch arguments when you have none.

    Game is a work in progress I think anyone can agree on that, if some can't handle it it's their problem, funding keeps rising, game art/mechanics/features keep being added for all to see, rest it's just gibberish.
    SQ 42 was most definitely planned to be a co op portion of the game, as in you played in an open multi player universe or offline as well, but there was definitely a multi player option originally. It was sort of the tutorial for the MMO. Star Marine part was always a little innocuous and since SM was essentially cancelled we see why. But it was originally going to be another stand alone module. When that cancelled it was moved to the co op version of SQ 42, when SQ 42 became non co-op Star Marine then became part of the alpha persistent universe, so when that gets delivered so will SM apparently. But it wont be the first person shooter module it was claimed to be, but then again there is so much confusion surrounding Star Marine I dont think anyone can keep all the changes and claims they made about it straight. But as an aside for people who take everything these guys say as gospel...they claimed in Mar of 2015 SM was ready to go and all they needed to do was release it 2 weeks later, after the final tweaks were done with the Zero G combat animations. That never happened obviously, then in late June it got a mention and basically said 'we are working on it' no new release date set. Forums explode, 3 days later another announcement, and what do you know? Star Marine indefinitely delayed. Another backlash and all the smeantics games start.

    SQ 42 was also supposed to have 50 missions, I am not sure what it will have now, but if I remember it was 5 chapters with 10 missions each, or a prologue and 4 chapters each having 10 missions. Supposedly progressing through the universe.

    Now it is an offline single player (ONLY) game with who knows how many missions, I think I heard 70 somewhere but not sure. So who knows they make alot of claims and have even announced things are going to release only to let months go by before they comment on those things again.


    But this is basically the time line for Star Marine, I wouldnt be surprised to see another made once the dead lines for SQ 42 start to come and go as well.
    • November 5th, 2014: Star Marine’s footage introduced, IllFonic tagged as the developer of the module.
    • March 6th, 2015: Star Marine to be released the week of March 30th. They simply only needed to finish transition animations and Zero-G combat.
    • June 27th, 2015: The letter from the chairman includes updates on Star Marine, notes that no release date is available.
    • June 30th, 2015: Star Marine is Delayed Indefinitely, by Polygon, building off of the previous Letter from the Chairman. The community reaction is severe, as the semantics of the title assumes Star Marine has been canceled.
    • July 8th, 2015: CIG publishes a response, calling Polygon’s title clickbait, and providing an alternate definition of “Delayed Indefinitely” which insists that such terminology is colloquial, not literal, and implies cancellation.
    • August 7th, 2015: Chris Roberts claims Star Marine will be playable before CitizenCon.
    • October 10th, 2015: CitizenCon occurs, Star Marine is not to be seen yet.
    • October 17th, 2015: It’s announced that Star Marine is folded into the PU.
    • January 25th, 2016: Chris Roberts provides the above commentary about the status of Star Marine, noting that “it’s just a gamemode.” 

  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    I can't believe people still cite Freelancer as some Chris Roberts success. Sigh. Just looking at the story of Freelancer development should tell you exactly why Chris Roberts isn't competent. No clue how you spin that any other way.

    Some people say he's not in charge of CIG, and I'd be prone to believing that.

    It's a poorly led process, in any event. People at the top are getting paid big the longer the project delays. That's really all that matters to them.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    Go check Freelancer score in Metacritic. And lol at people trying to rewrite history of Star Citizen development. Keep trying, Still making fools of yourselves.
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,607
    Babuinix said:
    Go check Freelancer score in Metacritic. And lol at people trying to rewrite history of Star Citizen development. Keep trying, Still making fools of yourselves.
    bwaahaaahaaahaaaaa those scores mean about as much as the hype meter on this website.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Babuinix said:
    Go check Freelancer score in Metacritic. And lol at people trying to rewrite history of Star Citizen development. Keep trying, Still making fools of yourselves.
    We've discussed a number of Tos changes and CIG retcons as they happened here in this forum over the last months. The only people who seem to be trying to re-write "SC development history", are the people at CIG. They also actively censor reddit.

    Maybe you just haven't been around for one of the "before and afters". There have been plenty.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,199
    When Digital Anvil was bought by Microsoft, Freelancer was a year and a half late, and out of funding.  It took MS three years of work and money to get Freelancer out, and Roberts' name was not on the game.  For those of you who so often cite his name on a box as proof of genius.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    When Digital Anvil was bought by Microsoft, Freelancer was a year and a half late, and out of funding.  It took MS three years of work and money to get Freelancer out, and Roberts' name was not on the game.  For those of you who so often cite his name on a box as proof of genius.
    Well, his name isn't in any of the development credits. MS paid him to keep his name on it to attract the genre market.

    He did the same thing in that project, told people dates and schedules, came back later saying, "well this is all much bigger than we'd thought so we'll need more time and money", got bought out for the brand name, sat as an "advisory role".
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    Sorry but who cares about TOS? Do anyone really reads TOS? lol What's the point really?
    Kickstart / Early Acess is about backing a game in development , it's prone to hickups , delays and re-do's. Like ALL the games in development do, it's just that you get to see it first hand from the inside (if you backed and you read the daily updates).

    If you guys want to hang on to trivial details that have nothing to do with the game itself knock yourselves out lol, just don't be surprised that people mock you and don't take you seriously like the rest of the armchair dev's that engage as forum negawarriors for a living lol
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Babuinix said:
    Sorry but who cares about TOS? Do anyone really reads TOS? lol What's the point really?
    Kickstart / Early Acess is about backing a game in development , it's prone to hickups , delays and re-do's. Like ALL the games in development do, it's just that you get to see it first hand from the inside (if you backed and you read the daily updates).

    If you guys want to hang on to trivial details that have nothing to do with the game itself knock yourselves out lol, just don't be surprised that people mock you and don't take you seriously like the rest of the armchair dev's that engage as forum negawarriors for a living lol
    The ToS isn't a trivial detail. The fact that, as the Tos stands, you are gifting money to CIG and unless you ask for it back within 14 days, they'll fight a refund, even if they deliver nothing but an itemized list of how they spent money, is a pretty important detail.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    rodarin said:
    Babuinix said:
    Go check Freelancer score in Metacritic. And lol at people trying to rewrite history of Star Citizen development. Keep trying, Still making fools of yourselves.
    bwaahaaahaaahaaaaa those scores mean about as much as the hype meter on this website.
    You do know that some development teams get their bonus payments based on reaching certain Metacritic scores with their new games, do you not ? So maybe, just MAYBE that score is important to some people ;-)


    Have fun
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    Adjuvant1 said:
    Babuinix said:
    Sorry but who cares about TOS? Do anyone really reads TOS? lol What's the point really?
    Kickstart / Early Acess is about backing a game in development , it's prone to hickups , delays and re-do's. Like ALL the games in development do, it's just that you get to see it first hand from the inside (if you backed and you read the daily updates).

    If you guys want to hang on to trivial details that have nothing to do with the game itself knock yourselves out lol, just don't be surprised that people mock you and don't take you seriously like the rest of the armchair dev's that engage as forum negawarriors for a living lol
    The ToS isn't a trivial detail. The fact that, as the Tos stands, you are gifting money to CIG and unless you ask for it back within 14 days, they'll fight a refund, even if they deliver nothing but an itemized list of how they spent money, is a pretty important detail.
    Dude every game is like that lol it's nothing special, heck even Steam has refunds.
    Stop being brats and own your responsibilities, if you spend money on early-acess games you have to understand that game development is not linear and that it's a risk, if you don't have the maturity to deal with that tough luck pall, your the only one to blame for that. TLDR- Grow up
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Babuinix said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    Babuinix said:
    Sorry but who cares about TOS? Do anyone really reads TOS? lol What's the point really?
    Kickstart / Early Acess is about backing a game in development , it's prone to hickups , delays and re-do's. Like ALL the games in development do, it's just that you get to see it first hand from the inside (if you backed and you read the daily updates).

    If you guys want to hang on to trivial details that have nothing to do with the game itself knock yourselves out lol, just don't be surprised that people mock you and don't take you seriously like the rest of the armchair dev's that engage as forum negawarriors for a living lol
    The ToS isn't a trivial detail. The fact that, as the Tos stands, you are gifting money to CIG and unless you ask for it back within 14 days, they'll fight a refund, even if they deliver nothing but an itemized list of how they spent money, is a pretty important detail.
    Dude every game is like that lol it's nothing special, heck even Steam has refunds.
    Stop being brats and own your responsibilities, if you spend money on early-acess games you have to understand that game development is not linear and that it's a risk, if you don't have the maturity to deal with that tough luck pall, your the only one to blame for that. TLDR- Grow up
    Well, I guess you told me. How about the next one hundred thousand people who are thinking about backing and weren't aware of this?

    It's not just about what you and I know. It's about what people should know, and frankly, I believe people who are well informed on the project wouldn't be giving them money at all right now.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:
    Sorry but who cares about TOS? Do anyone really reads TOS? lol What's the point really?
    Kickstart / Early Acess is about backing a game in development , it's prone to hickups , delays and re-do's. Like ALL the games in development do, it's just that you get to see it first hand from the inside (if you backed and you read the daily updates).

    If you guys want to hang on to trivial details that have nothing to do with the game itself knock yourselves out lol, just don't be surprised that people mock you and don't take you seriously like the rest of the armchair dev's that engage as forum negawarriors for a living lol
    Yeah who cares about the terms of service? It's only supposed to outline how you and the company interact with each other.

    I would honestly love to see your face if TOS's carried some real weight behind them legally (it's debatable) and you just clicked accept without reading it and woke up the next morning to your credit card charged hundreds of dollars. You probably would be singing a different tune.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,199

    There's a significant number of folks who have this almost idolatrous worship of Chris Roberts as genius game designer.   Which probably makes Roberts' self promoting soul very happy.  Any variance from this script of Roberts as genius is met with annoyance and denial.


    Check the credits on Wing Commander.   Production is shared with Warren Spector!  Designer credit is shared with two other folks, one of which is Stephen Beeman, who did the heavy lifting on the coding for the game.   Beeman was so good that he was chosen as the head for WC2.  


    Roberts helmed Strike Commander, and in his own words, it wasted over a million man hours of work.  It went through three different engines.  It was years late.   Sound familiar?


    On the later WCs, Roberts focus was mostly on shooting the story and cut scenes, leaving the actual game to be developed up by others.  Part of his eventual pivot to Hollywood.


    He left Origin to set up Digital Anvil, in part, because he didn't like the interference of the top management and wanted to do it himself.  Sound familiar?  Of course, two years in, he took Microsoft money 'to improve the games'.   Four years in....no games released inhouse, Digital Anvil failing, prompting a MS buyout.  Nothing to show for that time, except the execrable Wing Commander movie.


    Then he fled to Hollywood.  Tastes differ, but I'm not going to be watching a Chris Roberts moviefest anytime soon.  Then his career in Hollwood cratered.   His last film project went bankrupt, became mired in lawsuits, and sits unreleasable.   Looking around, there's this crowdsourcing thing, just starting to take off, with old developers making some money.  His plans were not that big and bold, as evidenced by the small monetary goals of the original pitches.  However, there was a significant body of space game afficionados who had nothing to play.   When that started kicking in, Roberts penchant for self promotion led to all those grandiose claims for his now Best Dam Space Game Eveh!   Many of which have been dropped on the wayside in the 100 million dollar journey to minimum viable product.   


    Not surprising though:  Roberts hasn't released a game in some 20 odd years. And worse, he hasn't learned from his past mistakes.  We have ample evidence of that via The Escapist, David Jennings, 'Where there's smoke there's fire', innumerable Roberts videos replete with undeliverable promises, backtracking, incompetence at his own game, etc.


    The game of Star Citizen, as described in those early Halcyon days, sounded great.  In the very long interim til now, much of what was so cool has been jettisoned, or, in more palatable terms, been put off into the nebulous future.  It's a long and bumpy road, and it will only get longer, and gain more bumps.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • howstupidisthishowstupidisthis Member UncommonPosts: 147
    "Roberts hasn't released a game in some 20 odd years."

    yeah, stupid guy was off making movies and stuff, what a jerk!
    /sarcasm
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,001
    Guys you are hanging on by a thread lol. TOS? Caring about other peoples money and what they do with it? lol damn the hypocrisy is strong with you guys, guess you are posting this because you are all good Samaritans except that you forgot all the other kickstarting projects in the world that apply to those "fears".

    TOS is a the baseline of every digital product that you buy, it's nothing new or the bogey man lol.

    Anyone that complains about losing money in games, being it at the casino, kickstarter projects, early access and so on deserve to be mocked lol, because it's a all a gamble, if you are not willing to endure that risk stay away and wait for a finished product, it's that simple.

    Now what some non-backers are spreading as gospel with lies and deceit is nothing more than having a bunch of hobos dressed as clowns in front of a Casino shouting and preaching to the god's " Warning to not go inside, you will lose all your money and you will have no fun whille doing it! Listen to use We care about your moneyz!"

    Seriously, grow up kids and find a hobby besides posting on forums about games you dislike lol
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Why do you guys need to defend him as though he's your dad?

    Sure the bloke has brought out or endorsed games which have been enjoyable but that doesn't make him a messiah. Despite his achievements he is widely regarded as a person that over-promises/under-delivers akin to Peter Molyneaux.
    When he left EA he hasn't had the best of successes, DA was a flop, one game was released under the DA label and that was coded out-of-house, his time in movie directing wasn't really notable.

    That's all fair assessment and because of those things some people are rather sceptical about his promises this time, as soon as reality starts biting people point to it (MVP) and that's fair enough because if you're going to brag about something and then not achieve that level of braggadocio then people are going to call you out on it.

    It's the yes men and the revisionists that are the problem for companies, every company needs criticism albeit constructive criticism.

    Why do you guys attack him like he's the school yard bully?
    Where does all this hatred come from?
    Perhaps is misdirected, coming from some other place in your life?
    Day after day I see you all here, which amazes the hell out of me.
    So tell us bub, why?!?

    Sorry but no response for you, it's clear that you are just trying to antagonize and bait people into making emotional responses.

    Good luck with that.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Right. Remember, kids, if you see something wrong, or if you see someone doing something you think is wrong, just shut up about it. Allow everyone who comes along after you to fall into traps and other bad situations. It's really none of your business.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    So ... instead of fuzzy math we are back to the same ole same ole ....

    Same people, same arguments, same result....

    deja vu

    in every SC thread.


    Have fun
This discussion has been closed.