Fuzzy Math scares me

Erillion

rodarin said:

Right now counting the money they claim they raise is basically the only positive the pro camp can show people. And to me those numbers are also pretty dubious.

Yeah.

Lets forget the many million of views of fan-made SC videos on Youtube (and of course tens of millions of views of official developer videos)

Lets forget the many regular positive gaming press articles about Star Citizen from many different sources.

Lets forget the 118.636 Facebook Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the 52300 Twitter Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the BBC "Behind the Scenes" documentation on SC.

Lets forget that SC is mentioned in big commercials of OTHER companies as exemplar (e.g. Time Warner)

Lets forget all the thousands of people that show up during live game shows.

Yeah.

Nothing to show. ....


Have fun



PS:

All those "dubious" numbers can be found after a 10 second Google search or by visiting one of the large game shows with CIG  presence (a la PAX or GamesCon).

Erillion

spankybus said:

Monthly expenses: 3Mil  
--> 2,5 - 3 M$,  following a rough rule of thumb for 10 k$/employee/month, ALL cost types included. Another rule of thumb names 100 k€/employee/year (ALL cost types included. )... which would be 30 M$ per year or 2,5 M$ permonth

Monthly income : 2mil   ---> 2.8 mil average (over the last year, low point was summer 2015)

Total Budget thus far: 113 Mil

**snip**

Ell mentioned the mo-cap shoot, and i'd completely forgot about that. That must have been millions for the actors alone.
--> some of the actors mentioned that its more like the (very reasonable) numbers they usually get for voice-overs
--> CIG mentioned in their correspondence to british authorities a number in the low single digit M$ range

Brand new Office in LA, the Office in Frankfurt that they are in the process of expanding. The annual cost of booths and prizes at shows like GDC, E3 and CitizenCon (honestly not sure of which shows they frequent).

--> They usually have special events in hotels nearby, not a large booth in the fairground proper. I guess that is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper.

Why am I doing this? /shrug why not? I've theory-crafted everything else on this game lol why not this.

--> Have fun

spankybus

Erillion said:

rodarin said:

Right now counting the money they claim they raise is basically the only positive the pro camp can show people. And to me those numbers are also pretty dubious.

Yeah.

Lets forget the many million of views of fan-made SC videos on Youtube (and of course tens of millions of views of official developer videos)

Lets forget the many regular positive gaming press articles about Star Citizen from many different sources.

Lets forget the 118.636 Facebook Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the 52300 Twitter Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the BBC "Behind the Scenes" documentation on SC.

Lets forget that SC is mentioned in big commercials of OTHER companies as exemplar (e.g. Time Warner)

Lets forget all the thousands of people that show up during live game shows.

Yeah.

Nothing to show. ....


Have fun



PS:

All those "dubious" numbers can be found after a 10 second Google search or by visiting one of the large game shows with CIG  presence (a la PAX or GamesCon).

I assume he means financially, given the rest of that post that you did not quote and as this is the point of the thread? Maybe ask for clarification before you post this kind of snark, please?

I don't normally mind how you guys treat each other, but as I'd like to not have my thread descend into the usual nonsense and closed.

Thanks.

rodarin

Erillion said:

rodarin said:

Right now counting the money they claim they raise is basically the only positive the pro camp can show people. And to me those numbers are also pretty dubious.

Yeah.

Lets forget the many million of views of fan-made SC videos on Youtube (and of course tens of millions of views of official developer videos)

Lets forget the many regular positive gaming press articles about Star Citizen from many different sources.

Lets forget the 118.636 Facebook Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the 52300 Twitter Fans of Star Citizen

Lets forget the BBC "Behind the Scenes" documentation on SC.

Lets forget that SC is mentioned in big commercials of OTHER companies as exemplar (e.g. Time Warner)

Lets forget all the thousands of people that show up during live game shows.

Yeah.

Nothing to show. ....


Have fun



PS:

All those "dubious" numbers can be found after a 10 second Google search or by visiting one of the large game shows with CIG  presence (a la PAX or GamesCon).

Dude thats all ANCIENT history. The fact you have to keep citing OLD (and aggregate) stats is pathetic. CURRENTLY this game is in the toilet, no one but blind fanboys want anything to do with it.

Just for some perspective in this fascination with Youtube videos and view counts....



Top 5 Warhammer online videos have about 4 million views. I suppose that means Warhammer Online is awesome and those views are a positive?

As for the FB and Twitter stuff, it has 180K LIKES not 'fans'. I am not a FB expert because I am a grown ass man but I doubt they are the same thing, and even if it was they claim to have 1.3 million 'citizens' so why dont they have more likes on FB? And 52.5K followers on Twitter? Not to drag his name into it but D Smart has 5300. So (according to you) a jealous, deluded, failure has 1/10 the followers the 'biggest and most successful' crowdfunded game in history has? 

Yup great comparison. For their top PR guy you might want to pick and choose what stuff you want to cite as 'evidence', because that post there shows just how NON relevant SC is right now. But the fact that even you couldnt spin something more from what exists shows just how little there is.

Like I said if success was actually measured in (allegedly) separating people from their money and selling jpegs online then yeah its the most successful project ever. But if you rate success by actually delivering games (and within 3 years of saying you could) its an out right failure.

Distopia

rodarin said:

Dude thats all ANCIENT history. The fact you have to keep citing OLD (and aggregate) stats is pathetic. CURRENTLY this game is in the toilet, no one but blind fanboys want anything to do with it.

That's a pretty loaded statement to make...weren't you just talking about being a moderate just a few threads ago? I can't see how a moderate would label all who have an interest in SC as being "blind" fanbois. 

rodarin

spankybus said:

I assume he means financially, given the rest of that post that you did not quote and as this is the point of the thread? Maybe ask for clarification before you post this kind of snark, please?

I don't normally mind how you guys treat each other, but as I'd like to not have my thread descend into the usual nonsense and closed.

Thanks.

Actually that post with the numbers he gave is the PERFECT response to the title of this thread. Completely irrelevant numbers used at 'proof' of something that doesnt matter one bit in the actual goal of this project.

That is what 'fuzzy math' does it throws out numbers that may or may not be accurate in the first place and then ties to make them mean something when they dont.

spankybus

rodarin said:

spankybus said:

I assume he means financially, given the rest of that post that you did not quote and as this is the point of the thread? Maybe ask for clarification before you post this kind of snark, please?

I don't normally mind how you guys treat each other, but as I'd like to not have my thread descend into the usual nonsense and closed.

Thanks.

Actually that post with the numbers he gave is the PERFECT response to the title of this thread. Completely irrelevant numbers used at 'proof' of something that doesnt matter one bit in the actual goal of this project.

That is what 'fuzzy math' does it throws out numbers that may or may not be accurate in the first place and then ties to make them mean something when they dont.

Maybe, but it did seem like he was deliberate mis-quoting you. I should say framing your quote out of context, which is the same thing. Also seemed somewhat acidic, which you seemed to respond in kind.

From there, it usually descends into something worse until its locked. I just ask that we address one another without using a tone that would get your slapped if used in public lol both sides.

Sadly, I am beginning to wonder if this is even possible with SC.

filmoret

Fuzzy math scares a lot of people.  Then again when it comes to SC.  Fuzzy math inspires donations which has resulted in over 110 million.

spankybus

filmoret said:

Fuzzy math scares a lot of people.  Then again when it comes to SC.  Fuzzy math inspires donations which has resulted in over 110 million.

When you think about it, it really is quite staggering lol

But then this game is what I have wanted to play for ages.

Side note: did any of you guys play 'Pirates of the Caribbean' by Akella? I loved that game, as broken as it was lol I could actually walk around the deck on my ship, not just BE the ship...that was awesome. I wanted it to go further.

i wanted the have access to the whole ship, i wanted travel times between ports to be long and for there to be ship-board gameplay, crew management, midshipman training, whatever...i am a nerd.

So, yea, i am looking forward to the SC that CR talks about. that does not mean i have wool over my eyes, so i am still asking what i think are fair and appropriate questions.

adamlotus75

Other things:
how much did they pay Illfonic?
How much did they spend setting up all that mo cap kit?

Adjuvant1

adamlotus75 said:

Other things:
how much did they pay Illfonic?

No one knows and no one has been allowed to know. There have been vague statements and alot of speculation. It all came to a head, more or less, in October. We don't know if they were overpaid and under-delivering, but I will say the art looked great. Take a look at CIG promotionals involving fps in 2015, you see stuff was really attractive, not like the dull grey that stations and such are in 2.x.

Maybe they knew something was very wrong and the game code wouldn't accommodate what would be expected of them. Maybe they wanted more money. We know, later, CIG altered models. We know today's 2.x engine isn't the finished product engine. Alot of work there is needed and they don't have the appropriate roles to get it done any time soon.

Maybe some of the dissent from the media hit pieces came from them. Maybe the private investigator hired by Chris and Ortwin in October had as much or more to do with Illfonic as the Escapist article. Maybe CIG's boot to Illfonic was the nail in the coffin for Illfonic. Maybe Illfonic was demonstrative of the mass incompetence CIG has elected, over the course of this project, to hire. Maybe we'll never know.

Drakmar

rodarin said:

Erillion said:

PottedPlant22 said:

If they are receiving 3 million a month in revenue and they are spending that 3 million each month, they have a horrible business model and their CFO should be fired.

Which part of "We will invest all pledged money back into the development of the game " was hard to understand for you?


Have fun

So coffee makers, doors, cars, murals, furniture (all high ticket priced versions)  are going ot the development of the game? Thats just the stuff we know about. How many 'corporate' dinners, lunches catered events have been funded by backer money? Or travel expenses (and more than likely the best seats available if not chartered) rather than simple transportation?

Now of course you will all argue it was a 'business' expense. But if you have ever actually ran a real business you know you dont over spend just because you can, but then again most 'businesses' dont have other people giving you money free and clear to do with as you please.

You sir take too much stock in what Derek Smart says.... 

It is a business and most office expenses can be written off, I guess you expect them  to setup on a floor with no tables or chairs, you know OFFICE EQUIPMENT ! Come on man, get real. Find something REAL to expose and produce proof.

You make so much about nothing, but then again all Derek's followers always do.  

Adjuvant1

Drakmar said:

rodarin said:

Erillion said:

PottedPlant22 said:

If they are receiving 3 million a month in revenue and they are spending that 3 million each month, they have a horrible business model and their CFO should be fired.

Which part of "We will invest all pledged money back into the development of the game " was hard to understand for you?


Have fun

So coffee makers, doors, cars, murals, furniture (all high ticket priced versions)  are going ot the development of the game? Thats just the stuff we know about. How many 'corporate' dinners, lunches catered events have been funded by backer money? Or travel expenses (and more than likely the best seats available if not chartered) rather than simple transportation?

Now of course you will all argue it was a 'business' expense. But if you have ever actually ran a real business you know you dont over spend just because you can, but then again most 'businesses' dont have other people giving you money free and clear to do with as you please.

You sir take too much stock in what Derek Smart says.... 

It is a business and most office expenses can be written off, I guess you expect them  to setup on a floor with no tables or chairs, you know OFFICE EQUIPMENT ! Come on man, get real. Find something REAL to expose and produce proof.

You make so much about nothing, but then again all Derek's followers always do.  

So, "written off" means something in your world that it doesn't mean in other worlds. The part of discussion is spending malfeasance, not tax deductions.

rodarin

Drakmar said:

rodarin said:

Erillion said:

PottedPlant22 said:

If they are receiving 3 million a month in revenue and they are spending that 3 million each month, they have a horrible business model and their CFO should be fired.

Which part of "We will invest all pledged money back into the development of the game " was hard to understand for you?


Have fun

So coffee makers, doors, cars, murals, furniture (all high ticket priced versions)  are going ot the development of the game? Thats just the stuff we know about. How many 'corporate' dinners, lunches catered events have been funded by backer money? Or travel expenses (and more than likely the best seats available if not chartered) rather than simple transportation?

Now of course you will all argue it was a 'business' expense. But if you have ever actually ran a real business you know you dont over spend just because you can, but then again most 'businesses' dont have other people giving you money free and clear to do with as you please.

You sir take too much stock in what Derek Smart says.... 

It is a business and most office expenses can be written off, I guess you expect them  to setup on a floor with no tables or chairs, you know OFFICE EQUIPMENT ! Come on man, get real. Find something REAL to expose and produce proof.

You make so much about nothing, but then again all Derek's followers always do.  

Umm that is a REAL business. I dont know of anyone who has admitted this is that. Are they going to pay taxes? Do they? Are they trying to be tax exempt? depending on the answers to those questions what you said isnt relevant.

We all know they have charged VAT but we dont know the repercussions (yet), we also know they  have tried to also claim tax exemption in some form or another.

Thats just another thing in the list of things that no one knows anything about.


If these guys put in solid gold toilets, platinum chairs, and diamond encrusted lamps and went full blown Kardashian I suspect most of you would still defend them.

Nothing wrong with ANYTHING (except maybe the mural(s)) they bought, its just the price tag they chose to give for it.

maybebaked

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

filmoret

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

CrazKanuk

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most. 

rodarin

CrazKanuk said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most. 

Actually a lot fewer people give money to charity now since they have been exposed as being completely corrupt. Most people give to their church or direct donations to specific charities now.

While it is OK now to rewrite history I surely dont remember them saying anything other than the pledged funds will go directly to the development of the game.

Go look at the specific wording of the Chronicles of Elyria kickstarter page. I would call that the the Star Citizen disclaimer. Of course that can also become fuzzy once (if) a game gets out of a formal kickstarter campaign and enters into the realm this game did through outside 'pledging' (selling of jpegs to raise more money).

But I dont think its too much to ask that the vast majority of money received went directly  to the actual making of the game, and if they want to buy equipment it doesnt have to be the most expensive stuff they can find.

Kefo

CrazKanuk said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most. 

Well actually when I give to a charity I look into how much of the money is spent on administration, salaries, etc and what actually goes towards helping whatever the charity is supporting. 

Not it sure if you are aware but Canadian charities are fully accountable to the government. If they have anything that looks funny then their charity status can be revoked and there goes their donations. 

So yes I do ask them where they spend the money I give and most of them are quite happy to tell you how it's spent. 

I thought you you as a fellow Canadian wouldn't have used that horrible example since it is extremely easy to poke holes in it.

howstupidisthis

Oh yes, my first post and I'll probably get roasted.

Star Citizen is the best thing to happen to sims/mmos in years!
I pledged 425 bucks and if I could afford it, I'd do more!

I'm having a blast and new content and improvements are ongoing always.
Chris Roberts has a great track record and known for getting things done.

So many failures out there, it's bizzare that so many people here seem to want SC to fail.
I find that very strange!

Anyway, to the OP they have plans to keep SC funded for years.
Squadron 42 expansions mostly and cosmetic gear.
It's worked for other games who promised more and delivered less 

Drakmar

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

What difference does it make to you how anyone spends their money ?

Your boy Derek claims to have made a million dollars designing games, yet all of his games are bug-ridden messes and no player base can be found in any of them.  That said.... Ask Derek where is "minimum viable product" is for all those who wasted their money on his game's, not one of them a viable product !

You can say what you want but bottom line is that anything to do with the business end of the product is none of your business period. If you paid money for the game that's all you deserve to get. How they get there is none of yours or my business.

 

CrazKanuk

Kefo said:

CrazKanuk said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most. 

Well actually when I give to a charity I look into how much of the money is spent on administration, salaries, etc and what actually goes towards helping whatever the charity is supporting. 

Not it sure if you are aware but Canadian charities are fully accountable to the government. If they have anything that looks funny then their charity status can be revoked and there goes their donations. 

So yes I do ask them where they spend the money I give and most of them are quite happy to tell you how it's spent. 

I thought you you as a fellow Canadian wouldn't have used that horrible example since it is extremely easy to poke holes in it.

Lol, true enough. Actually, I donate to a hospital program and give directly to them opposed to using something like United Way. Damn you logic!!! 

Either way, they don't have the same rules and regulations, so they really don't have to answer for themselves. Is it a problem? Probably less of a problem than what is being made of it. Also, it's people who have zero investment in it who are kicking up the biggest stink. Maybe people should start petitioning the government to place more regulations on these projects? I'm pretty sure it would be a more productive venture. No? I thought you as a fellow Canadian would have seen that by now. 

Actually, I live pretty close to London (45 minutes), we should meet up and duke it out in person, lol. 

Kefo

CrazKanuk said:

Kefo said:

CrazKanuk said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

Funny, do you give money to charity and then ask them where that money goes? I think that the part that is hilarious about it is the level of accountability being requested. You pledged money, you didn't buy a seat on the board. Sorry, they have no responsibility to justify anything because you've entrusted them with your money. That is if you've entrusted them at all with anything, as it seems that plenty have given nothing yet ask for the most. 

Well actually when I give to a charity I look into how much of the money is spent on administration, salaries, etc and what actually goes towards helping whatever the charity is supporting. 

Not it sure if you are aware but Canadian charities are fully accountable to the government. If they have anything that looks funny then their charity status can be revoked and there goes their donations. 

So yes I do ask them where they spend the money I give and most of them are quite happy to tell you how it's spent. 

I thought you you as a fellow Canadian wouldn't have used that horrible example since it is extremely easy to poke holes in it.

Lol, true enough. Actually, I donate to a hospital program and give directly to them opposed to using something like United Way. Damn you logic!!! 

Either way, they don't have the same rules and regulations, so they really don't have to answer for themselves. Is it a problem? Probably less of a problem than what is being made of it. Also, it's people who have zero investment in it who are kicking up the biggest stink. Maybe people should start petitioning the government to place more regulations on these projects? I'm pretty sure it would be a more productive venture. No? I thought you as a fellow Canadian would have seen that by now. 

Actually, I live pretty close to London (45 minutes), we should meet up and duke it out in person, lol. 

CIG really should be answering to the backers though since they are the ones funding them. I know it's different rules then charities but if they want to say how it's the most open development ever then they should post some financials. I'm not asking for full disclosure here and I realize most of the people reading the reports would draw incorrect conclusions from them but it would be the easiest way to put the money issue to rest.

lol I'm a scrawny science nerd so you could probably kick my ass. Maybe I could just bribe you with the ice cream we make here

filmoret

Drakmar said:

filmoret said:

maybebaked said:

I find it hilarious that some people spend a lot of time trashing this game. What is your problem? Why do you care so much?

Maybe read a little of the thread next time.  Not to mention it is equally hilarious people throw more money and never ask where it went or if it works.

What difference does it make to you how anyone spends their money ?

Your boy Derek claims to have made a million dollars designing games, yet all of his games are bug-ridden messes and no player base can be found in any of them.  That said.... Ask Derek where is "minimum viable product" is for all those who wasted their money on his game's, not one of them a viable product !

You can say what you want but bottom line is that anything to do with the business end of the product is none of your business period. If you paid money for the game that's all you deserve to get. How they get there is none of yours or my business.

 

After all the stuff Derek has said... I don't know anyone who takes that guy seriously any more.  But honestly anyone who wants to know the truth can realize that CIG has messed up royally.  That does not mean they won't deliver a product but they have caused a 6 million dollar game turn into something that costs more then 100 million and still not delivered.  Then they have spun everything to make it look like the 6 million dollar game has added scope and now it should cost over 65 million.  But when you look at what was promised in the original scope and what was added.  Well if you can see that much idk how anyone can take CIG seriously either.

GrumpyHobbit

Personally I don't care how much money they make. 

If all I get is a 6 million dollar game for my £25 then I will be happy and the rest is just game profits which they as the game makers fully deserve.

I could care less what decor their office has, which coffee machine they use for refreshments or if the MD is an unlikely character. If they make a good game and it is worth £25 then for all I care they could have pocketed 95% of the raised funds and I would be happy for them and myself.